Limerick GAA Discussion Part 2

munsterdevil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120207089#Comment_120207089

There’s also the fact that there is a big gap between U21 and senior, and a lot of the players just weren’t good enough.

PeggyShippen

Yeah I'd agree with what people are saying about the under 20s. Harder to make the step up now than it was 10 years ago. There is the obvious outstanding talent like Joyce from Cork or O Neill from Crecora. That was a good game on Saturday night and I think Cork will take alot from that. Kiely in his interview afterwards was naturally a little disappointed after being in such a strong half time position. Coughlan is very good going forward, obviously his achielles heel is his speed which he's been working on.

The middle ranking cover players like Costello,Richie, Barry Murphy were very average over the hour and the 2 full back guys were under tremendous pressure . All fine players. Barry Murphy probably has to be seen again and did some decent things.My point would be , why carry these guys on a panel over many years. They arent good enough to start and haven't really shown they can cover the boys ahead . Wouldnt it be better to bring in younger guys and see if they can step up? Maybe Kiely has done that and they arent there.

Clare look good. It ll be a nip and tuck affair and Sean Finn will have his hands full organising the full back line to handle Rodgers et Al.

munsterdevil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120207092#Comment_120207092

Just saw that it’s James Owens that’s refereeing. He’ll stamp out any nonsense.

Hopefully 😂

Greasy Paw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120207089#Comment_120207089

(1) were Cork that good in '04. they could not a 14 man Waterford. In 2005, I think, and 06 we also ran them to a point

(2) We had six potential panelists, who opted to play football.

munsterdevil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120208808#Comment_120208808

They didn't lose by a point to Cork in 2004, they lost by 3 points. Limerick also got a late goal that put a gloss on the scoreline. We were well outplayed that day. And, Cork were good; they hammered Kilkenny in the All-Ireland Final that year.

breezy1985

That 3 in a row generation also came up against the best Kilkenny (or anywhere) team, probably the best ever Waterford team and a top Cork team that changed the game of hurling. The standard at the top was very high and I would say relatively higher than it is now.

Iecrawfc

That 3 in a row generation had a good spread of above average u21s but not senior inter-county stars. I remember Babs Keating saying after we beat Tipp by a point or 2 that Limerick were looking for 8-9 off the team whereas Tipp only needed 1 or 2, thought it was sour grapes at the time but it was true in the long run. Still If it wasn't for the nadir of 2009 though we may not have seen the concerted effort that has given us this present side!

evolvingtipperary101

See young English started and Mulcahy came on. That must be it for Pat Ryan unless he is injured?

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120211854#Comment_120211854

Ryan won't be on the panel.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212566#Comment_120212566

That must have happened in the last week or so?

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212648#Comment_120212648

I read it on the Limerick leader.

evolvingtipperary101

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120212662#Comment_120212662

​Oh, I see. Robbie Hanley, Darren O’Connell, Brian O’Grady and Conor O’Grady too.

einn32

I'm probably a bit disappointed we didn't see the game out upon reflection. We're definitely fitter at this point compared to this time last year.

munsterdevil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120213825#Comment_120213825

True. But it might be the "kick up the h*le" that we needed.

Performance levels significantly dropping off in the second half of the initial games in the league is the norm now, the physical conditioning will be spot on when it matters most.

You’d really notice how important Quaid is when he’s not on the pitch. Likewise Hannon once he went off.

Gillane is due back soon.

Murphy did well I felt, we need good cover for DO’D & WO’D so hopefully he gets plenty more minutes there in the next month.

McCarthy didn’t make a case for himself, his puck out stats were poor and he wasn’t great on either goal. He’s 29 this year, surely we have younger options (J.Gillane, Hanley-Clarke & Power) we could focus on?

Costello at corner back - I think he turns 31 this year? I don’t want to be overly critical on individuals but I don’t believe it’s unfair to say that if a player hasn’t broken through by their late 20’s then perhaps it’s better to focus on developing younger options?

Plenty of positives to take from the first half. We’re not as far behind fitness wise as at the same point last year and they played some good stuff in the first half.

It’s disappointing to see Brian O’Grady and Darren O’Connell let go - they both suffered terrible luck with injuries. There seemed to be high hopes from management for both as (when fit and available) they were given plenty of minutes in the league and pre season competitions in the previous three seasons. Two projects which ultimately failed - Kiely spoke very highly of them both on a number of occasions.

They don’t normally cut the panel before the league but I think there was a need this season as they don’t have as many players away on Fitzgibbon Cup duty as they have tended to have in the previous 5/6 years.

The county board need to take note - it’s not the job of the senior management to develop underage players* - but we don’t seem to be producing enough players who have proven capable to make the step up. Lifting The Treaty and the reform of underage structures and creation of the academy back in 2008 was terrific success which produced an excellent generation of players born in 1994/95/96.

*(This looks to contradict what I said earlier re it being better to develop younger options than players players in their late 20’s. To clarify, in the above paragraph I’m referring to players up to the age of 20 through the underage structures. Once seniors, management have a responsibility to ensure a balanced mix of ages and experience levels on the panel as a whole and in some cases it’s better for the medium and long term to give minutes to a 21/22 year old fringe player than a 28/29 year old fringe player.)

But have they become complacent? It worked once so they just stuck with that formula?

Our 2017 under 21 team produced players who became an integral part of the senior team in 2018 - some of whom already were starting for the seniors in 2017.

Compare with our 2022 under 20 team - O’Neill is good enough to start but as of right now that’s it.

That’s not having a pop at any of those players - a handful of them look like they will eventually have a good future at senior level.

I personally feel changing in from under 21 to under 20 was a big mistake. The average under 20 graduate just doesn’t seem as ready for senior inter county as the average under 21 graduate did up to the change in 2018. Similarly for the minor grade. The overall quality has been diluted and the step up becomes more pronounced.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120210091#Comment_120210091

The 2000-2002 under 21’s were a good bunch of athletes who all just so happened to come through at the same time, a number of them being good sporting all rounders who were just as comfortable with a Gaelic football in their hands or on a soccer field. Don’t get me wrong - they could hurl but they had nowhere near the hurling ability of the 2015-17 under 21’s.

They also bonded very well as a group - it was a great team to be a part of and that got them over the line on a handful of occasions when under serious pressure.

Dave Keane was naturally selected as the man to succeed Eamonn Cregan in 2003.

The old guard were slightly put out at the new manager moving a few of them on to make way for the new guys. Nothing serious though. With one exception. The captain at the time - Mark Foley - took exception to his brother John being cut from the panel. A lot happened behind the scenes as a result of that which ultimately led to the county board at the time dramatically sacking Dave Keane after the 2003 season when all indications up to that meeting indicated they would be sticking by him for 2004.

I’m sketchy on many of the details as to what happened in the background but things got ugly.

How ugly? The Foleys appeared to hold their grudges. At the end of 2011 Adare announced Dave Keane would take charge of their senior team for 2012. Within a week, Mark Foley transferred from Adare to Castletown-Ballyagran and Brian Foley transferred from Adare to South Liberties and neither brother ever played for Adare again. (John - the brother who Dave Keane cut in 2003 was long gone by now, I believe he emigrated at some stage)

Unfortunately that tumultuous year set the tone for that three in a row group. There always seemed to be drama followed them closely. Criticism of a(n exaggerated) drinking culture, PadJoe kicking up a fuss on dual players, Joe McKenna sending a team out in Ennis which was seemingly picked by a random number generator to name a few. Bennis got a good year out of them but by then Kilkenny were miles away. That 2007 final was a reality check which I personally believe they never recovered from.

Even if we had managed the integration of those players better and more akin to the 2015-17 group I doubt it would have made a difference. They might have won a Munster title or two but they didn’t have the same quality of hurler as Kilkenny or Cork (while they were more focused on on the field matters than off the field issues).

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120215433#Comment_120215433

That u21 team also came into the senior team at a time when Limerick were way behind what others were doing.

The current team turned senior and benefited underage with a Limerick on the forefront of modern coaching and s&c in GAA.

munsterdevil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120215468#Comment_120215468

As Iecrawfc pointed out, we needed too many U21s to make the transition. The level of expectation was unfair and too much.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120215501#Comment_120215501

That's part of it but was it not the same for this current team.

munsterdevil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120215519#Comment_120215519

Touché!

PeggyShippen

Ard Scoil Ris had most of their forward line from Clare this year. And they had Tulla and Flannans in Harty . Limerick had 50% of a Harty team. Thats not good for player development. What's happened Castletroy and Doon.

The senior team are fantastic but I agree with the poster who's said the senior management also has a responsibility to bring guys through. Id have kept O Grady over Costello. Like wheres Will Henn. He's better than Oisin O Rielly who's been around for ages. Ritchie is game but not top class. I won't over egg ot but suffice to say the production lines aren't what they are or what's sometimes precieved by people outside Limerick.

Greasy Paw

We are, according to a recent study, the county that is in sixth place as regards the number of hurlers we are likely to have. Cork has about five times the pool we have to draw from and Galway are next, with a huge pool also. It is amazing we got three great teams together in the history of the game with the limited pool we have. Galway, for example, has twice the pool we have and less than half the All Irelands.

In this Scribes HO, we were never going to keep throwing up exceptionally brilliant teams on an on-going basis.

Iecrawfc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120217593#Comment_120217593

I would have thought we would be 3rd or 4th no? Cork, Galway and Tipp ahead but around the same as KK and a little ahead of Clare, Waterford, Wexford, Dublin? We were always competitive down the years but short of a few more quality players to win all irelands, with the recognition that under-age needs to be nourished aswell I'm hoping we'll be able to stay around the top and win an ai every 10 years on average after this exceptional team has finished up. Definitely the interest is there in the county.

Iecrawfc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120217297#Comment_120217297

Castletroy were in the B final this year, I hope ASR aren't getting backing or resources from the limerick county board because if they are we, are doing Clare a favour more than Limerick. One thing I noticed this year is the lack of Limerick fitzgibbon hurlers compared to Clare, Waterford etc. which is strange considering the strength of the u20s in the last few years, maybe the academy is producing a smaller number of hurlers by hothousing an elite group rather than broadening the talent pool?

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120218025#Comment_120218025

Do you think Ard Scoil are the only team ever had a lad from a neighbouring county.

We sent more than a few out to Flannans over the years ourselves.

Those mega hurling schools are like 3rd level and not an accurate representation of the county they reside.

Iecrawfc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120218080#Comment_120218080

Thats why I'm saying Limerick county board shouldn't be putting resources in there, they were in the past.

PeggyShippen

Not alone are Ard Scoil harty hurling panel's almost 50% Clare, some of the younger grade panels are 60% Clare kids. They are getting kids from as far away as Newmarket on Fergus. Nearly all Sixmilebridge hurlers come to Ard Scoil now. In my day it was 2 or 3 max from the 'Bridge. Its not a good sign for the future of Limerick if they can only produce half a harty team . No matter how good the academy is thats not sustainable.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120218533#Comment_120218533

You do know clubs have underage hurling ya ?

munsterdevil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120218630#Comment_120218630

Leave him off. PeggyClare been sounding the death knell of Limerick hurling for a while now all in aid of their beloved Clare 😄

C4000

In terms of the panel for 2023 it seems to be:

Keepers: Nickie Quaid, David McCarthy, Jamie Power

Full backs: Aaron Costello, Richie English, Sean Finn, Barry Nash, Mike Casey, Fergal O' Connor

Half backs: Diarmuid Byrnes, Dan Morrissey, Declan Hannon, Ronan Connolly, Ciaran Barry, Colin Coughlan, Mark Quinlan

Midfield: Darragh O' Donovan, Will O'Donoghue, Jimmy Quilty, Rory Duff, Barry Murphy

Half forwards: Kyle Hayes, Cian Lynch, Tom Morrissey, Cathal O'Neill, David Reidy, Micheal Houlihan, Aidan O'Connor

Full forwards: Conor Boylan, Aaron Gillane, Graeme Mulcahy, Peter Casey, Shane O'Brien, Adam English, Seamus Flanagan, Oisin O'Reilly, Donnacha O'Dalaigh

Anyone missing?