N25 - Carrigtwohill to Midleton [route options published]

niloc1951

East of Midleton the two most urgent pieced of upgrade are bypass's for Castlemartyr and Killeagh plus a grade seperated junction or flyover, a la N40, at the Lakeview Roundabout.
For between Carrigtwohill and Midleton East ( Jct. 4 & 5) a more cost effective option could be a third lane each way similar to that between Jct. 8 & 9 on the M8

marno21

niloc1951 wrote: »

East of Midleton the two most urgent pieced of upgrade are bypass's for Castlemartyr and Killeagh plus a grade seperated junction or flyover, a la N40, at the Lakeview Roundabout.
For between Carrigtwohill and Midleton East ( Jct. 4 & 5) a more cost effective option could be a third lane each way similar to that between Jct. 8 & 9 on the M8

A far easier solution would be a new motorway from Carrigtwohill to the Youghal bypass incorporating upgrade of Carrigtwohill-Midleton in conjunction with a Lakeview flyover and new section from Midleton-Youghal. Proper, fit for purpose road between the Waterford border and Cork City.

Instead this is all being done in an ad hoc manner with no apparent plan for how Lakeview will be dealt with in the future and a partial upgrade of road between Carrigtwohill and Midleton which most road users won't even notice happening let alone benefit from it. Someone driving from Killeagh to Cork won't notice any benefits with this plan with the exception of reduced accidents.

The N25 seems to have been relegated to secondary priority by everyone involved which is a shame.

Chris_5339762

But apart from a few local accesses, there isn't a massive accident rate on this road as far as I know. The south ring is far, far, far worse and in all my year and a half driving from Cobh to Cork at rush hour there has only been a couple of bad accidents that I'm aware of.

Lakeview is easier to sort than it looks. Demolish those houses, make a flyover over the roundabout with no entry/exit and put a GSJ a kilometer east linking up to the Whitegate road and to Midleton.

Hibernicis

niloc1951 wrote: »

East of Midleton the two most urgent pieced of upgrade are bypass's for Castlemartyr and Killagh

Spot on. Whenever I drive Cork to Waterford and back those are the two black spots I dread the most. There is no excuse for dragging a National Primary Route and a Euroroute through small villages. And given that both are located on right angle bends bypassing them should be straightforward if the Bypass were to traverse the 90 degree angle.

Of all the minor interventions that could be taken to improve N25 these are probably at the very top of the cost benefit list.

hans aus dtschl

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

But apart from a few local accesses, there isn't a massive accident rate on this road as far as I know. The south ring is far, far, far worse and in all my year and a half driving from Cobh to Cork at rush hour there has only been a couple of bad accidents that I'm aware of.

Lakeview is easier to sort than it looks. Demolish those houses, make a flyover over the roundabout with no entry/exit and put a GSJ a kilometer east linking up to the Whitegate road and to Midleton.

I've one minor difference of opinion to what you're saying, with my "dream infrastructure" hat on: I'd rather see an underpass, so that the town could be contiguous once more. The road really splits the south of Midleton right now.

niloc1951

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I've one minor difference of opinion to what you're saying, with my "dream infrastructure" hat on: I'd rather see an underpass, so that the town could be contiguous once more. The road really splits the south of Midleton right now.

The topography of the site lends itself to an overpass as the N25 to the east of the roundabout rises 5m in the first 250m at surface level and continued to rise for a further 250m
If an underpass was to be considered, with a road surface 5m underground at the roundabout, it would mean a steep climb out of the tunnel.

hans aus dtschl

niloc1951 wrote: »

The topography of the site lends itself to an overpass as the N25 to the east of the roundabout rises 5m in the first 250m at surface level and continued to rise for a further 250m
If an underpass was to be considered, with a road surface 5m underground at the roundabout, it would mean a steep climb out of the tunnel.

I know exactly the rise you mean, but I hadn't considered its impact: I'd only considered the impact of the water west of the roundabout.

marno21

The IDA have tendered for engineering consultancy services for designing an access road to their site at Ballyadam, Carrigtwohill (the Amgen site).

https://irl.eu-supply.com/ctm/Supplier/PublicPurchase/171262/0/0?returnUrl=ctm/Supplier/PublicTenders&b=ETENDERS_SIMPLE

Interesting to see how these connect up

hans aus dtschl

Leonard Hofstadter wrote: »

It also states that they want it to be a motorway, which would be a significant upgrade on the existing road (and would hopefully mean higher speed limits to go with it).

I must confess that I'm a little bit worried about this project, even though I use that road extremely regularly.
There's good justification for resolving the direct-access and safety issues, but I fear the following:
1: That the upgrade will act as a traffic generator, by funding a road interchange into Waterrock SDZ, where a proposed rail station has already been put on the long-finger.

2: That the road upgrade competes with the adjacent commuter rail line for traffic. The rail line's not getting funding, but the road is.

3: That the road upgrade will see a substandard alternative route for active transport in the area. The proposals to date have seen these most distance-sensitive of users take scenic diversions all over the place, through housing estates, up hills, on and off footpaths and roads, anything other than directly travelling East-West. This road upgrade will be another direct barrier to active transport in the area if this trend continues. TII and Cork Co-Co don't currently consider active transport to be a real thing, it's more like a "leisure activity" or "activity for children" as far as they're concerned.

4: That the road upgrade will encourage sprawl in areas like Mogeely, Killeagh and Castlemartyr, which will now be "just five minutes from the city".

So I'm definitely apprehensive.

If I had money to upgrade the N25 road corridor, I'd have focused primarily on Castlemartyr and Killeagh. Carrigtohill to Midleton is extremely questionable.

BelfastVanMan

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I must confess that I'm a little bit worried about this project, even though I use that road extremely regularly.
There's good justification for resolving the direct-access and safety issues, but I fear the following:
1: That the upgrade will act as a traffic generator, by funding a road interchange into Waterrock SDZ, where a proposed rail station has already been put on the long-finger.

2: That the road upgrade competes with the adjacent commuter rail line for traffic. The rail line's not getting funding, but the road is.

3: That the road upgrade will see a substandard alternative route for active transport in the area. The proposals to date have seen these most distance-sensitive of users take scenic diversions all over the place, through housing estates, up hills, on and off footpaths and roads, anything other than directly travelling East-West. This road upgrade will be another direct barrier to active transport in the area if this trend continues. TII and Cork Co-Co don't currently consider active transport to be a real thing, it's more like a "leisure activity" or "activity for children" as far as they're concerned.

4: That the road upgrade will encourage sprawl in areas like Mogeely, Killeagh and Castlemartyr, which will now be "just five minutes from the city".

So I'm definitely apprehensive.

If I had money to upgrade the N25 road corridor, I'd have focused primarily on Castlemartyr and Killeagh. Carrigtohill to Midleton is extremely questionable.

I find it hard to agrue with that.
Castlemartyr and Killeagh need bypasses like Charlie Haughey needed backhanders.

Leonard Hofstadter

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I must confess that I'm a little bit worried about this project, even though I use that road extremely regularly.
There's good justification for resolving the direct-access and safety issues, but I fear the following:
1: That the upgrade will act as a traffic generator, by funding a road interchange into Waterrock SDZ, where a proposed rail station has already been put on the long-finger.

2: That the road upgrade competes with the adjacent commuter rail line for traffic. The rail line's not getting funding, but the road is.

3: That the road upgrade will see a substandard alternative route for active transport in the area. The proposals to date have seen these most distance-sensitive of users take scenic diversions all over the place, through housing estates, up hills, on and off footpaths and roads, anything other than directly travelling East-West. This road upgrade will be another direct barrier to active transport in the area if this trend continues. TII and Cork Co-Co don't currently consider active transport to be a real thing, it's more like a "leisure activity" or "activity for children" as far as they're concerned.

4: That the road upgrade will encourage sprawl in areas like Mogeely, Killeagh and Castlemartyr, which will now be "just five minutes from the city".

So I'm definitely apprehensive.

If I had money to upgrade the N25 road corridor, I'd have focused primarily on Castlemartyr and Killeagh. Carrigtohill to Midleton is extremely questionable.

I actually completely agree with you on upgrading Middleton to Youghal first, that would be a heck of a lot more beneficial than this upgrade. Castlemartyr and Killeagh are complete bottlenecks.

steeler j

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I must confess that I'm a little bit worried about this project, even though I use that road extremely regularly.
There's good justification for resolving the direct-access and safety issues, but I fear the following:
1: That the upgrade will act as a traffic generator, by funding a road interchange into Waterrock SDZ, where a proposed rail station has already been put on the long-finger.

2: That the road upgrade competes with the adjacent commuter rail line for traffic. The rail line's not getting funding, but the road is.

3: That the road upgrade will see a substandard alternative route for active transport in the area. The proposals to date have seen these most distance-sensitive of users take scenic diversions all over the place, through housing estates, up hills, on and off footpaths and roads, anything other than directly travelling East-West. This road upgrade will be another direct barrier to active transport in the area if this trend continues. TII and Cork Co-Co don't currently consider active transport to be a real thing, it's more like a "leisure activity" or "activity for children" as far as they're concerned.

4: That the road upgrade will encourage sprawl in areas like Mogeely, Killeagh and Castlemartyr, which will now be "just five minutes from the city".

So I'm definitely apprehensive.

If I had money to upgrade the N25 road corridor, I'd have focused primarily on Castlemartyr and Killeagh. Carrigtohill to Midleton is extremely questionable.

It would be better to upgrade Killeagh and Castlemartyr but there is a few small things I would like to see done with the Carrigtohill to Middleton section

KrisW1001

The scheme length is stated as 5 km, but the drawing marks a 12 km stretch of N25, including 3.5 km beyond the current eastern end of the dual carriageway, so I don't think this is a wholesale upgrading to Motorway.

My guess is a similar project to the Cork South Ring junction improvements: parallel access roads and elimination of closely-spaced junctions. In the case of N25 specifically, such parallel access would allow the Castlerock junction westbound to be given a longer, safer onramp, and provide access to the currently unused "Amgen site" without the prospect of traffic lights(!), and eliminate the last couple of cross-median junctions.

I also agree that Castlemartyr needs a bypass - now that New Ross is bypassed, it is the main bottleneck on the entire route between Rosslare and Cork. (Killeagh is nowhere near as bad as Castlemartyr, and a lot of its issues are from people dodging Castlemartyr via Mogeely increasing traffic at that junction). I just worry that, if Midleton-Carrigtwohill isn't fixed first, then increasing traffic flow onto Westlake roundabout would just make things worse.

hans aus dtschl

steeler j wrote: »

It would be better to upgrade Killeagh and Castlemartyr but there is a few small things I would like to see done with the Carrigtohill to Middleton section

Yep, I'm 100% in favour of the smaller works you're alluding to, for sure.
Remove the direct access to the road. Remove the median crossing at Waterrock.

And here's the important one for me: fund an upgrade of viable secondary routes for slower-moving vehicles and active transport. There's two existing roads to choose from, one North of the N25 and one South of the N25.
I'm not saying to widen and smoothen these, rather to actively design them, and discourage speeding on them through passive design measures.

After the above are done, you could slap a blue sign on the N25 without significant effort to be honest.

This project screams of cart-before-horse to me.
I hope I'm wrong about that.

hans aus dtschl

KrisW1001 wrote: »

The scheme length is stated as 5 km, but the drawing marks a 12 km stretch of N25, including 3.5 km beyond the current eastern end of the dual carriageway, so I don't think this is a wholesale upgrading to Motorway.

My guess is a similar project to the Cork South Ring junction improvements: parallel access roads and elimination of closely-spaced junctions. In the case of N25 specifically, such parallel access would allow the Castlerock junction westbound to be given a longer, safer onramp, and provide access to the currently unused "Amgen site" without the prospect of traffic lights(!), and eliminate the last couple of cross-median junctions.

I also agree that Castlemartyr needs a bypass - now that New Ross is bypassed, it is the main bottleneck on the entire route between Rosslare and Cork. (Killeagh is nowhere near as bad as Castlemartyr, and a lot of its issues are from people dodging Castlemartyr via Mogeely increasing traffic at that junction). I just worry that, if Midleton-Carrigtwohill isn't fixed first, then increasing traffic flow onto Westlake roundabout would just make things worse.

Regarding the local parallel roads:
There's no mention of the parallel roads being upgraded. They're local roads and they're Co Co responsibility, not TII. I'd be utterly delighted if they were upgraded as strategic parallel-access roads. I'd be probably happier than anyone on here.
The LDP sees these roads as primarily facilitating sprawl in Midleton and Carrigtohill. They're effectively earmarked to have many housing estates directly on them. The Co Co will upgrade them piecemeal and not strategically.

On the other hand, on the N25:
The WaterRock UEA needs a new interchange on the M25, to facilitate house building. They hope to build an extra 25% the size of Midleton.
Lakeview Roundabout is also a major bottleneck and TII need to improve the flow there.
Plus all the legitimate safety and throughput concerns.

So yeah, I think TII's focus on Carrigtohill-Midleton is misplaced.

hans aus dtschl

BelfastVanMan wrote: »

I find it hard to agrue with that.
Castlemartyr and Killeagh need bypasses like Charlie Haughey needed backhanders.

They're a disaster, particularly Castlemartyr.
Even on Sundays, the tailbacks are ridiculous.

Nobody could possibly look at the N25 and consider Carrigtohill-Midleton to be a priority above Castlemartyr and Killeagh. It's just not believable.

Sorry for getting so exercised about it, but as far as I'm concerned this project stinks.

Pete_Cavan

Its off topic so maybe a mod could move this discussion but...

Surely to upgrade to M25 west of Midleton, the main thing that is needed is a new motorway junction at the eastern corner of the "Amgen site" which would serve that site, the quarry and houses to the south and also allow access to Waterrock? That would put the junction about 2km from the junctions either side, which is decent spacing. Some new elements of local roads would be needed to tie into the existing roads but not a full parallel road for several km along the N25.

If motorway was to be extended east of Midleton, it would have to pass over the Lakeview roundabout on a bridge with no junction provided there, instead a new junction would be provided east of the town. A new distributor road would be needed east of Midleton and serving Ballinacurra to the south. Such a distributor road east of Midleton should be progressed now and a new P&R station provided a km and a bit from the station. The car park could also be used by greenway users at weekends.

hans aus dtschl

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Its off topic so maybe a mod could move this discussion but...

We should probably nip off to another thread, but you make some great points.
Sorry to others for the derailment!

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Surely to upgrade to M25 west of Midleton, the main thing that is needed is a new motorway junction at the eastern corner of the "Amgen site" which would serve that site, the quarry and houses to the south and also allow access to Waterrock? That would put the junction about 2km from the junctions either side, which is decent spacing. Some new elements of local roads would be needed to tie into the existing roads but not a full parallel road for several km along the N25.

I've no problem with the general thrust of what you're saying but there's houses directly on both sides of the N25 in a good few locations. The new WaterRock/Amgen junction will facilitate some, and you could tie new roads in from North and South for others, but you still have industrial and agri traffic and cyclists to deal with! There's also an existing plan for a dedicated E-W cycleway on the corridor. So you end up doing a lot of the work regardless.
The simple solution is to upgrade the already-available parallel routes and tie in to those. I'm not necessarily talking about needing a 2+2 and dedicated bus lanes, cycle lanes and footpaths here, but they need to move away from a single-lane road with no hard shoulder, blind bends and the likes. These roads just aren't currently capable of functioning as local distributors.

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

If motorway was to be extended east of Midleton, it would have to pass over the Lakeview roundabout on a bridge with no junction provided there, instead a new junction would be provided east of the town. A new distributor road would be needed east of Midleton and serving Ballinacurra to the south. Such a distributor road east of Midleton should be progressed now and a new P&R station provided a km and a bit from the station. The car park could also be used by greenway users at weekends.

I'm in favour of all of an eastern distributor. It would facilitate a move away from the current use of Main Street as a primary transport route. Lakeview Roundabout is a real "divider" right now too, cutting the town in two. But I don't believe there are any such plans at present. Lakeview Roundabout is staying in the current plan. Here, even when you to focus your mind on the Midleton area, the N25 isn't your priority item, the Lakeview Roundabout is!

As I say, very little of this project as it's currently presented seems makes sense to me. The issues will stay....but we'll be able to develop WaterRock and Amgen though.

Pete_Cavan

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I've no problem with the general thrust of what you're saying but there's houses directly on both sides of the N25 in a good few locations. The new WaterRock/Amgen junction will facilitate some, and you could tie new roads in from North and South for others, but you still have industrial and agri traffic and cyclists to deal with! There's also an existing plan for a dedicated E-W cycleway on the corridor. So you end up doing a lot of the work regardless.
The simple solution is to upgrade the already-available parallel routes and tie in to those. I'm not necessarily talking about needing a 2+2 and dedicated bus lanes, cycle lanes and footpaths here, but they need to move away from a single-lane road with no hard shoulder, blind bends and the likes. These roads just aren't currently capable of functioning as local distributors.

The bit in bold is pretty much what I was saying, work with whats there, improve that and fill in gaps as necessary.

I'm in favour of all of an eastern distributor. It would facilitate a move away from the current use of Main Street as a primary transport route. Lakeview Roundabout is a real "divider" right now too, cutting the town in two. But I don't believe there are any such plans at present. Lakeview Roundabout is staying in the current plan. Here, even when you to focus your mind on the Midleton area, the N25 isn't your priority item, the Lakeview Roundabout is!

If the roundabout stays, motorway will have to end west of Midleton. I can't see 2+2 bypasses of Castlemartyr and Killeagh being priority as long as the bottleneck of the single carriageway road and roundabout remain at Midleton. I'd say this is why TII are prioritising west of Midleton, and they are right. I suggested the P&R as a measure to reduce traffic through the roundabout, get as much as possible to turn off east of Midleton and get on trains.

As I say, very little of this project as it's currently presented seems makes sense to me. The issues will stay....but we'll be able to develop WaterRock and Amgen though.

I can see the sense in it. No point having a great road bypassing Castlemartyr and Killeagh encouraging more traffic to feed into a bottleneck at Midleton and a substandard road further west which is carrying even more traffic. Carrigtohill - Midleton east needs to be sorted.

hans aus dtschl

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I can see the sense in it. No point having a great road bypassing Castlemartyr and Killeagh encouraging more traffic to feed into a bottleneck at Midleton and a substandard road further west which is carrying even more traffic. Carrigtohill - Midleton east needs to be sorted.

I don't understand I'm afraid.
The big bottleneck is the Lakeview Roundabout, I think we're in agreement on that?

But this plan doesn't fix the Lakeview Roundabout at all, it just upgrades the N25 2+2 West of Lakeview and the N25 1+1 immediately East of Lakeview? It looks more like an all-in effort to develop on the Carrigtohill-Midleton corridor.

Edit, could Admin possibly hive our discussion off into the N25 thread here: https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057983325

Pete_Cavan

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I don't understand I'm afraid.
The big bottleneck is the Lakeview Roundabout, I think we're in agreement on that?

But this plan doesn't fix the Lakeview Roundabout at all, it just upgrades the N25 2+2 West of Lakeview and the N25 1+1 immediately East of Lakeview? It looks more like an all-in effort to develop on the Carrigtohill-Midleton corridor.

Well we still dont know exact what the scope is here. If the roundabout isn't removed then there is no point in upgrading east of it, attracting more traffic and giving it a largely free run down the throat of a major bottleneck. That is going to create as many problems as it solves. In the absence of removing the roundabout, its better to focus on the substandard road west of Midleton plus a P&R east of it to somewhat reduce traffic through the roundabout.

spacetweek

Some posts have been moved in here above. They are in response to this:

TII have published a major run through of all major projects.

https://www.tii.ie/roads-tolling/projects-and-improvements/Major-Active-Projects.pdf

This scheme is planned as a motorway not dual carriageway.

hans aus dtschl

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Well we still dont know exact what the scope is here. If the roundabout isn't removed then there is no point in upgrading east of it, attracting more traffic and giving it a largely free run down the throat of a major bottleneck. That is going to create as many problems as it solves. In the absence of removing the roundabout, its better to focus on the substandard road west of Midleton plus a P&R east of it to somewhat reduce traffic through the roundabout.

I agree: if the roundabout isn't removed there's no point upgrading east of it.
Focusing on the substandard road West of Midleton is fine, but as I keep bleating on, if I were working on the N25 corridor that would be a low priority for me, with so many other issues to choose from.
I suspect the thing that's making that piece of the corridor interesting is the possibility of developing the land.

Gunner3629

Fair enough Lakeview should be upgraded but it's no where near as much a bottleneck as Castlemarytr.
Whatever about Killeagh getting bypassed, Castlemarytyr should be a priority. If anyone with a say in the TII was travelling from Cork to Youghal during this past summer, they should immediately realize Castlemartyr is in urgent case.

hans aus dtschl

Gunner3629 wrote: »

Fair enough Lakeview should be upgraded but it's no where near as much a bottleneck as Castlemarytr.
Whatever about Killeagh getting bypassed, Castlemarytyr should be a priority. If anyone with a say in the TII was travelling from Cork to Youghal during this past summer, they should immediately realize Castlemartyr is in urgent case.

Yep, that's what I've been saying.
The N25 between Carrigtohill and Midleton is nowhere near the priority that the section between Midleton and Youghal is. Focusing money at the section West of Midleton looks more like a development facilitation effort than a roads upgrade to me.

Pete_Cavan

Gunner3629 wrote: »

Fair enough Lakeview should be upgraded but it's no where near as much a bottleneck as Castlemarytr.
Whatever about Killeagh getting bypassed, Castlemarytyr should be a priority. If anyone with a say in the TII was travelling from Cork to Youghal during this past summer, they should immediately realize Castlemartyr is in urgent case.

If the Castlemarytr bottleneck was removed but the roundabout remained, the bottleneck that is Lakeview would be significantly magnified. Short single carriageway bypasses of Castlemarytr and Killeagh should be progressed rather than waiting decades for something more.

Paddico

spacetweek wrote: »

Some posts have been moved in here above. They are in response to this:

TII have published a major run through of all major projects.

https://www.tii.ie/roads-tolling/projects-and-improvements/Major-Active-Projects.pdf

This scheme is planned as a motorway not dual carriageway.

Looks out of date

tonc76

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

If the Castlemarytr bottleneck was removed but the roundabout remained, the bottleneck that is Lakeview would be significantly magnified. Short single carriageway bypasses of Castlemarytr and Killeagh should be progressed rather than waiting decades for something more.

Both would still overload Lakeview roundabout though?

hans aus dtschl

1, Lakeview is already overloaded.
2, Lakeview wasn't the issue highlighted in the TII document, the safety of the 2+2 was.
3, Castlemartyr badly needs a bypass (any bypass! Even a short single carriageway would help).
4, Fixing Lakeview without Castlemartyr being bypassed WILL see longer Castlemartyr tailbacks.

They seem to be ignoring pretty significant problems in the area and focusing on something that will mostly facilitate development. That shouldn't be TII's job IMO.

Lakeview to Castlemartyr is 100kmh 1+1 with houses directly on it and no median. There's no amount of discussion of the safety of the section between Carrigtohill and Midleton that will bring it into priority focus for me, as someone that uses both sections extremely regularly.

There's frequent crashes on the section immediately West of Carrigtohill. Even if they were looking at that stretch it would make more sense to me. This one's all about getting that new junction in place, so that the Amgen and WaterRock sites can be developed.

niloc1951

As a Midleton resident here's my tuppence worth.

1. No great issue with the N25 100km/h section west of Midleton, although it would definitely benefit from a bit of tidying up and a proper merging lane at Jct 5 westbound plus proper exit and merging lanes to serve existing by-roads.
2. Lakeview Roundabout urgently needs to be sorted, there are regular tailbacks on St. Mary's Road (R630) and as already stated on the N25 in both directions.
3. Castlemartyr is a disaster, it should have been by-passed during the last century
4. Killeagh is not too bad but also need to be by-passed.

Sort 2,3&4 and you have a clear route between the JLT and Dungarvan