Running - Sport v Activity

Testosterscone

(Lobbing this grenade in and ducking for cover)

https://www.fastrunning.com/opinion/comment/running-become-activity-rather-sport/10885/amp?__twitter_impression=true

Got caught up in this debate elsewhere.

It's funny looking at my facebook feed every club seems to have Couch to 5k programs starting up in the coming week and yet despite this track and cross country numbers fair stagnant, volunteer and official numbers quite low, most clubs (in Dublin atleast) have waiting list for kids entering.

Is AAI doing enough to funnel people into the sport as opposed to the activity? and is enough being put into retention?

RayCun

I'll make the usual points

Membership is way up, over 60,000 club members by the end of the year
AAI can't move people from parkrun to clubs, people will make that move because of personal contact, if anything, so it has to come from clubs
Equally, running cross country or track is in large part down to the club. People do these races if they are individually competing for medals or if they are part of a team.

The big issue is the hourglass demographic profile, which came up in the article about the u23 team. Lots of kids training, who drop out when they leave school, or when they start work. I don't think this is an athletics problem specifically , and I don't know what the solution is. I don't think there is an easy fix that anyone is ignoring.

Testosterscone

RayCun wrote: »

I'll make the usual points

Membership is way up, over 60,000 club members by the end of the year
AAI can't move people from parkrun to clubs, people will make that move because of personal contact, if anything, so it has to come from clubs
Equally, running cross country or track is in large part down to the club. People do these races if they are individually competing for medals or if they are part of a team.

The big issue is the hourglass demographic profile, which came up in the article about the u23 team. Lots of kids training, who drop out when they leave school, or when they start work. I don't think this is an athletics problem specifically , and I don't know what the solution is. I don't think there is an easy fix that anyone is ignoring.

Just with regards that membership number I actually delved a bit deeper into this and kinda backs up my point

60,000 members vs 22,000 championship entries

2/3rds of club members are not actively engaging in the sport they are signed up to at a championship level?

I agree the hourglass demographic is an issue no doubt but that is all the more reason why engaging is important.

The few who do come through the juvenile ranks at non elite level have very few to train with, no teams to compete with so can become a very lonely place. Having that middle group is crucial in acting as a natural progression to keep these people in the sport.

A guy running 17/18 min and competing in cross country and track might not place or stand out but can have a major role in keeping someone of 17/18/19 running.

RayCun

22000 championship entries is pretty decent though! How many were there ten or twenty years ago?

I completely agree about the value of keeping the second rank people in the sport. And actually, that's an argument for participation as well as competition. Because I think when people drop out, it is often because they ask themselves why they are putting so much time into something that they are never going to be great at

Testosterscone

RayCun wrote: »

22000 championship entries is pretty decent though! How many were there ten or twenty years ago?

I completely agree about the value of keeping the second rank people in the sport. And actually, that's an argument for participation as well as competition. Because I think when people drop out, it is often because they ask themselves why they are putting so much time into something that they are never going to be great at

That includes Juvenile though. I reckon any significant increase might be due to the fact that the National 10k and Half were bought by commercial races.

Take them out of the equation and I reckon numbers would be quite comparable.

I think the highlighted bit is where needs to be focused on and is pretty much the crux of the article. The focus becomes to polarized between completion and winning there is no in between. A focused strategy on developing structures and sense of community within clubs needs to be the next step from simply getting people off the couch. There is more incentive in overcoming ill preparation to complete than a decent work ethic.

average_runner

Track and cross country are stalling because of two things:

1. Lack of track facilities, easier to get access to a park or road.
2. Is cross country stalling because of age profile? Look at myself I would of done cross country but now do sports with the kids on a sat and sun morning, so no time. Whats coming thru?

Testosterscone

average_runner wrote: »

Track and cross country are stalling because of two things:

1. Lack of track facilities, easier to get access to a park or road.
2. Is cross country stalling because of age profile? Look at myself I would of done cross country but now do sports with the kids on a sat and sun morning, so no time. Whats coming thru?

To say its a facilities issues would be a misnomer. There are 3 times as many tracks as there were 15 years ago yet the figures haven't changed. Plenty of using these tracks for training but would never consider competing on one.

2 of the biggest track clubs in the country don't have tracks (DSD and Raheny)

Similarly as you say park access is better yet cross country numbers dwindling.

Cross country championships senior and juvenile are held in conjunction so so plenty of overlap (in fact is welcomed as this is the kinda thing that needs to be encouraged rather than the cheap baby sitting service many clubs are seen as)

Also speaking of demographic looks like its an issue across the board with entrants for Dublin Masters Cross country sitting at 18% of registered Dublin Athletics Members.

average_runner

Testosterscone wrote: »

To say its a facilities issues would be a misnomer. There are 3 times as many tracks as there were 15 years ago yet the figures haven't changed. Plenty of using these tracks for training but would never consider competing on one.

2 of the biggest track clubs in the country don't have tracks (DSD and Raheny)

Similarly as you say park access is better yet cross country numbers dwindling.

Cross country championships senior and juvenile are held in conjunction so so plenty of overlap (in fact is welcomed as this is the kinda thing that needs to be encouraged rather than the cheap baby sitting service many clubs are seen as)

Also speaking of demographic looks like its an issue across the board with entrants for Dublin Masters Cross country sitting at 18% of registered Dublin Athletics Members.

There might be three times as many tracks but that is still quiet low. One track between tallaght and Lucan, over 100,000 population.

It's good cross country is held together but for my example, my kids do different sports on sat and Sunday. So it's a no go.


Not sure how to solve the problem

RayCun

I don't think it's a shortage of tracks. It's not like there are too many people entering track races to be accommodated.
Well, not too many adults anyway

average_runner

RayCun wrote: »

I don't think it's a shortage of tracks. It's not like there are too many people entering track races to be accommodated.
Well, not too many adults anyway

There is a waiting list for kids in West Dublin.
More clubs and tracks needed for kids, that's the future. Having to turn kids away is a nail in the coffin.

Testosterscone

average_runner wrote: »

There is a waiting list for kids in West Dublin.
More clubs and tracks needed for kids, that's the future. Having to turn kids away is a nail in the coffin.

That's not a track issue, that's a coaching resource. Very few willing to volunteer their time. It's a point of have made previously just because membership is so high it's still being ran by the same faces as it was 10 years ago without much help. Membership numbers on the rise but very few willing to give back so it's putting even more of a drain on an already stretched volunteer force. 40,000 manhours over the course of a year could have a huge impact but as it stands those helping out are being stretch further as they are usually same faces volunteering at parkruns.

Remember for every one person willing to give back with there time 8-10 more children can be accomodated.

While these waiting lists are in place how many tracks are full for longer than an hour a day? What if you had 10 more coaches suddenly you get to a stage where you can't accomodate that many on the track at once so you stagger training times for different coaches and groups. All of a sudden you have more people using the facilities, more flexibility in training times and more engaged with the sport.

average_runner

Testosterscone wrote: »

That's not a track issue, that's a coaching resource. Very few willing to volunteer there time. It's a point of have made previously just because membership is so high it's still being ran by the same faces as it was 10 years ago without much help. Membership numbers on the rise but very few willing to give back so it's putting even more of a drain on an already stretched volunteer force. 40,000 manhours over the course of a year could have a huge impact but as it stands those helping out are being stretch further as they are usually same faces volunteering at parkruns.

Remember for every one person willing to give back with there time 8-10 more children can be accomodated.

While these waiting lists are in place how many tracks are full for longer than an hour a day? What if you had 10 more coaches suddenly you get to a stage where you can't accomodate that many on the track at once so you stagger training times for different coaches and groups. All of a sudden you have more people using the facilities, more flexibility in training times and more engaged with the sport.

Think your forgetting people have jobs so only certain hours available. So 6-7 is the common time. Track only has a certain amount of space.

5-6 pm is not a suitable time as people work till 530 pm. Weekend is the other choice maybe?
After 7 is a no go as getting late

Testosterscone

average_runner wrote: »

Think your forgetting people have jobs so only certain hours available. So 6-7 is the common time. Track only has a certain amount of space.

5-6 pm is not a suitable time as people work till 530 pm. Weekend is the other choice maybe?
After 7 is a no go as getting late

That's the point I am making not everyone is those set hours perhaps one person can make 5 perhaps the earliest another coach can make is 7. Not everyone works 9-5 (in fact the way things are going that is becoming decreasingly common)

All of a sudden you have 3 coaching slots
5-6, 6-7, 7-8

All of a sudden you have the track being used for 3 hours instead of one. This gives other members a bit more flexibilty also and all of a sudden a club becomes more accessible overall. It also means that kids are seeing more senior athletes around the club which has a knock on effect in motivation etc (a point a few have made about the likes Hawkins and Griffith having more of a positive impact on athletics than the likes of Farah due to them being seen around the clubs on regular basis)

Coffee Fulled Runner

Just going by my club. We've about 300 juniors from 6 up to the age of 13 or so. We only set up a junior side of things maybe 4 years ago so the hope is to keep progressing them into their teens. The local secondary school has started athletics too because of the demand. It will be interesting to see how things progress. Because of the numbers involved it tights up many of the seniors time so they can't train as much as many would like to.

Then the seniors is mainly made up of the people who register for the C25k program with the club. I guess 90 to 100. These would see running as an activity more than a sport. Although the top 20 to 30 of these run all year round they don't join us for senior training. They don't see the point in doing intervals etc which is grand they prefer just to meet up for social runs but a fair amount do take part in some races but I don't time time is a major concern for most.

Then there are about 20 of us at best for senior training it can be as low as 4 or 5 on cold winter nights. I'd say most see running as a sport.

Hannibal_Smith

I don't know about running clubs, all I can speak about is what I've seen in the GAA. Most clubs start off with Macra. They've opened an u7's team in our club for hurling and football for training only, no matches. U8s is when you start playing other clubs. All the coaches are parents of kids on the team. With u7s and u8s it doesn't matter so much your own experience, just that you understand the drills and are supportive. Two of the coaches played for the club before i think, but a long time ago. So wouldn't be current members and are only getting involved because their kids are. They all give up two evenings a week ( hurling and football) and Sat mornings. They have coaching courses once a year for parents. I'm currently waiting on the next one to earn my stripes.

Point Is, the resources don't necessarily have to come from the club, do they? Could there not be a macra style introduction to the sport? Giving kids and parents a taste of what's expected and proceed from there? If you visit any of the local GAA Clubs on a Sat morning, you'll see the same thing. There is one head coach on macra mornings; all the rest are teenage club members and parents.

The soccer is done on a similar basis and I see them post on fb for new coaches as it grows.

I'm not sure when people talk about times being difficult for people, are you referring to coaches or potential members? But build it and they will come. Training for us is 6.30pm. I work 9-5.30. So two evenings a week the childminder feeds the kids and I skip a meal to get him there. Training starts in Jan and continues ( with a few weeks break in the summer) until December and the full team is up there, come rain, Wind, or shine.

As I say I haven't a barney about running clubs, but if other sports are doing It, why not look at how it works for them and carry some of those ideas over? In fact, while the parents are waiting around I would bet they would be inclined to have a quick run around the track, and you have new members there too.

average_runner

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

I don't know about running clubs, all I can speak about is what I've seen in the GAA. Most clubs start off with Macra. They've opened an u7's team in our club for hurling and football for training only, no matches. U8s is when you start playing other clubs. All the coaches are parents of kids on the team. With u7s and u8s it doesn't matter so much your own experience, just that you understand the drills and are supportive. Two of the coaches played for the club before i think, but a long time ago. So wouldn't be current members and are only getting involved because their kids are. They all give up two evenings a week ( hurling and football) and Sat mornings. They have coaching courses once a year for parents. I'm currently waiting on the next one to earn my stripes.

Point Is, the resources don't necessarily have to come from the club, do they? Could there not be a macra style introduction to the sport? Giving kids and parents a taste of what's expected and proceed from there? If you visit any of the local GAA Clubs on a Sat morning, you'll see the same thing. There is one head coach on macra mornings; all the rest are teenage club members and parents.

The soccer is done on a similar basis and I see them post on fb for new coaches as it grows.

I'm not sure when people talk about times being difficult for people, are you referring to coaches or potential members? But build it and they will come. Training for us is 6.30pm. I work 9-5.30. So two evenings a week the childminder feeds the kids and I skip a meal to get him there. Training starts in Jan and continues ( with a few weeks break in the summer) until December and the full team is up there, come rain, Wind, or shine.

As I say I haven't a barney about running clubs, but if other sports are doing It, why not look at how it works for them and carry some of those ideas over? In fact, while the parents are waiting around I would bet they would be inclined to have a quick run around the track, and you have new members there too.

Most parents would of played gaa and soccer so they feel they can help out. Most were never a part of a running club so they feel they can't help out. These are the barriers that clubs have to break down where parents have kids attending.

Hannibal_Smith

average_runner wrote: »

Most parents would of played gaa and soccer so they feel they can help out. Most were never a part of a running club so they feel they can't help out. These are the barriers that clubs have to break down where parents have kids attending.

Our coaches haven't played for many years. That's where the macra is useful. Macra starts at age 4 so by the time they're in the u8s that's 4 years the parents have hanging around the club, getting a vibe for it. I never picked up a hurl in my life until this year, but I'm next in line for the coaching course. Yes, some parents would have experience playing, but others, like me, don't and we're getting involved. The only reason we went up 6 years ago, was because the flyer came round the school in junior infants.

There is a clear interest in running these days.

Isn't it worth looking At?

average_runner

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Our coaches haven't played for many years. That's where the macra is useful. Macra starts at age 4 so by the time they're in the u8s that's 4 years the parents have hanging around the club, getting a vibe for it. I never picked up a hurl in my life until this year, but I'm next in line for the coaching course. Yes, some parents would have experience playing, but others, like me, don't and we're getting involved. The only reason we went up 6 years ago, was because the flyer came round the school in junior infants.

There is a clear interest in running these days.

Isn't it worth looking At?

We have the same set up at our gaa club. Nursery from 4-7 And then move on. Did my first coaching course in Oct, more next year.

RayCun

We have Little Athletics starting at senior infants age.
Athletics Ireland run summer camps for young kids too.

Hannibal_Smith

I'm not sure what club you are Ray, but I looked up TAC for our eldest and there was a waiting list. He was 7 at the time mind you, so may have missed the bus? I didn't see anything about a running nursery or camp? But I'm going to look into it now, because he would love it.

Another thing I was going to suggest, was birthday parties. TAC have that football thing beside them (can't remember what it was called). Surely they see the footfall going in there at weekends?

Our eldest is nearly 9 and unless they're in to football (which luckily he is), there's not much else to do with a whole class. Running the legs off them on a track would be ideal! :pac:

As I say, I'm not expert, I'm just talking from what I see in our own community. The promotions guy in our GAA club never stops. They are forever looking for kids. So much so rival clubs are now knocking down the classroom doors! I would imagine the more prominent you are in the community, the more people will look to you and I reckon that's his mantra!

RayCun

I'm Brothers Pearse. We have waiting lists too, for every age group up to secondary school.

Thing is, all these things need to be organised. Little Athletics does bring in new parents as coaches, and has some teenagers helping out, but you still need some experienced people to set it up and get it running, and supervise all those helpers. Same with athletics parties, summer camps, whatever. It's not that clubs can't find ways to get kids involved, it's that we don't have the people to coach those kids when they arrive.

GAA has a lot of money, they can pay more development people to do that work.

average_runner

RayCun wrote: »

I'm Brothers Pearse. We have waiting lists too, for every age group up to secondary school.

Thing is, all these things need to be organised. Little Athletics does bring in new parents as coaches, and has some teenagers helping out, but you still need some experienced people to set it up and get it running, and supervise all those helpers. Same with athletics parties, summer camps, whatever. It's not that clubs can't find ways to get kids involved, it's that we don't have the people to coach those kids when they arrive.

GAA has a lot of money, they can pay more development people to do that work.

Gaa just ask parents to help out in the nursery and under 8. I did one course which was organised across Dublin, same way athletic' s do their courses regularly. Gaa don't pay for any coaches at the early level.

RayCun

We get parents and teenagers to help out too, but we don't have a promotions officer to organise all of this or school visits etc

average_runner

RayCun wrote: »

We get parents and teenagers to help out too, but we don't have a promotions officer to organise all of this or school visits etc

But you don't have the resources to handle any more so no need for promotion officers. So that's not the issue.

Hannibal_Smith

RayCun wrote: »

I'm Brothers Pearse. We have waiting lists too, for every age group up to secondary school.

Thing is, all these things need to be organised. Little Athletics does bring in new parents as coaches, and has some teenagers helping out, but you still need some experienced people to set it up and get it running, and supervise all those helpers. Same with athletics parties, summer camps, whatever. It's not that clubs can't find ways to get kids involved, it's that we don't have the people to coach those kids when they arrive.

GAA has a lot of money, they can pay more development people to do that work.

Well I don't know what money is involved. Our club certainly always seem to be continuously fundraising. What they get from the GAA I don't know. All the coaches are volunteers. What they pay in insurance etc I wouldn't have a clue.

But it's worth having a look, seeing what they provide and working out what ideas you can cog. I've seen reference round here plenty of times to running booms etc and it's crazy that clubs haven't benefited from it. Use social media. Do you have a fb page that's updated frequently?

I looked up Athletics Ireland and sure enough there was a running camp.l for the summer. Mentioned it to the eldest who was very excited about it. When working it out in his head, he asked what if it clashes with X Summer camp and before I could get a word out he blurted, well it's great to try new things so I'd like to do the running camp this year. That's the kind of legend yiz are missing out on! :pac: If I hadn't come on here, we wouldn't have known about it.

RayCun

Clubs have benefitted from the running boom. Athletics Ireland membership was over 60000 at the end of 2017, about three times as much as ten or twenty years ago. About half of those are juvenile members. My own club is about three times the size it was when I joined seven years ago. Finding kids to join is not a problem, finding people to coach them is. (And finding suitable training facilities in winter, to some extent )

Similarly, there's a steady stream of new adult members, although there's also a steady drop out rate, and the number of people willing to run xc and track grows more slowly than absolute membership.

ThisRegard

On the subject of waiting lists, it's not restricted to athletics. My local scouts group is the same for all levels due to lack of adults. There's the incentive that if you do become a leader your kids get straight in, no waiting.

I've almost been talked into it myself on more than one occasion, as too with the local GAA by neighbours who's kids have grown up and have no reason really to supervise anymore. I'd actually enjoy the scouting but it clashes midweek and weekend with other things I have.

It's a big commitment though. As anyone with kids would know there's enough evenings and weekends where you're shuttling your own kids around, nevermind others.

You then have no time to yourself, long runs on a weekend become scarcer unless you sacrifice an hour or two lie on, and the extra time in bed on a weekend is very appealing in the winter.

average_runner

ThisRegard wrote: »

On the subject of waiting lists, it's not restricted to athletics. My local scouts group is the same for all levels due to lack of adults. There's the incentive that if you do become a leader your kids get straight in, no waiting.

I've almost been talked into it myself on more than one occasion, as too with the local GAA by neighbours who's kids have grown up and have no reason really to supervise anymore. I'd actually enjoy the scouting but it clashes midweek and weekend with other things I have.

It's a big commitment though. As anyone with kids would know there's enough evenings and weekends where you're shuttling your own kids around, nevermind others.

You then have no time to yourself, long runs on a weekend become scarcer unless you sacrifice an hour or two lie on, and the extra time in bed on a weekend is very appealing in the winter.

A lie on? Thought they were extinct.

Hannibal_Smith

RayCun wrote: »

Clubs have benefitted from the running boom. Athletics Ireland membership was over 60000 at the end of 2017, about three times as much as ten or twenty years ago. About half of those are juvenile members. My own club is about three times the size it was when I joined seven years ago. Finding kids to join is not a problem, finding people to coach them is. (And finding suitable training facilities in winter, to some extent )

Similarly, there's a steady stream of new adult members, although there's also a steady drop out rate, and the number of people willing to run xc and track grows more slowly than absolute membership.

Can I ask then, if membership has tripled, where are the membership fees going? Presumably the club retains all the fees it gets? Do they get subsidies from athletics Ireland?

I dont know about retaining the adult runners or getting them to take part in track or xc which i accept was the whole point of the thread . Could you incorporate track training and xc into membership? Give people a taste for it? Or maybe that's what you do already. Maybe ask new members what they're looking for and if they're not competing in track and xc, why.

Winter training for everyone is a pain. Flooded training grounds and lack of lighting. The other sporting clubs seem to help each other eg the soccer club moves to other grounds that are floodlit.

average_runner

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Can I ask then, if membership has tripled, where are the membership fees going? Presumably the club retains all the fees it gets? Do they get subsidies from athletics Ireland?

I dont know about retaining the adult runners or getting them to take part in track or xc which i accept was the whole point of the thread . Could you incorporate track training and xc into membership? Give people a taste for it? Or maybe that's what you do already. Maybe ask new members what they're looking for and if they're not competing in track and xc, why.

Winter training for everyone is a pain. Flooded training grounds and lack of lighting. The other sporting clubs seem to help each other eg the soccer club moves to other grounds that are floodlit.

Some of the fee goes to athletic Ireland, some on insurance and the rest to the club to pay for annual cost.

ThisRegard

average_runner wrote: »

A lie on? Thought they were extinct.

Our kids enjoy theirs too! Worse thing about having their friends over for sleep overs is the early mornings, one particular friend has a fondness for 6am.