Running - Sport v Activity

RayCun

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

Can I ask then, if membership has tripled, where are the membership fees going? Presumably the club retains all the fees it gets? Do they get subsidies from athletics Ireland?

17 euro per adult and 12 per juvenile goes to Athletics ireland for registration and insurance (plus a couple of hundred to register the club).

In my club, the juvenile registration mostly goes on facilities hire (halls, tracks) and competition entry. Plus bits and pieces like parties, awards, coach training.

Adult registration, most of it is put aside for larger expenses.

Hannibal_Smith wrote: »

I dont know about retaining the adult runners or getting them to take part in track or xc which i accept was the whole point of the thread . Could you incorporate track training and xc into membership? Give people a taste for it? Or maybe that's what you do already. Maybe ask new members what they're looking for and if they're not competing in track and xc, why.

Most people who start running as adults start in mass participation road races, and go straight to the marathon. Track and XC are seen as things for 'real runners', while a lot of late starters see themselves as social runners. (For some people, running track or XC then becomes a way to prove that they are 'real runners' )

Even entering track and XC races can be a bit of a hurdle, because many of them are club-only events, with a different entry system.

The main issue, though, is the standard. If you run a road race, a bunch of the people in the race will only run now and again, and lots of them don't do real training. Pretty much anyone from a club is going to finish in front of a lot of people. Go to a track or an XC race, and everyone is a club runner. On the track, you will have fewer than 20 people in a race, and the chances of not only coming last, but last by a long way, are substantial. The field in XC is bigger, but its a field of people who are used to doing quite well in road races, and some of them are going to be coming in at or near the back of the field.

So it takes a while to convert new road running members into people who'll run XC or track. Partly it's about building their confidence as runners, and partly about building a club culture where people do these things to be part of the team.

Coffee Fulled Runner

Just on xc
https://www.mayoac.com/cross-country-matters/

walshb

Running is an activity. Racing is a sport!

Intentional and dedicated racing is true sport!

average_runner

ThisRegard wrote: »

Our kids enjoy theirs too! Worse thing about having their friends over for sleep overs is the early mornings, one particular friend has a fondness for 6am.

Haha, both of mine are up at 645, used to be 530 or 6am !!!

Macy0161

RayCun wrote: »

The main issue, though, is the standard. If you run a road race, a bunch of the people in the race will only run now and again, and lots of them don't do real training. Pretty much anyone from a club is going to finish in front of a lot of people. Go to a track or an XC race, and everyone is a club runner. On the track, you will have fewer than 20 people in a race, and the chances of not only coming last, but last by a long way, are substantial. The field in XC is bigger, but its a field of people who are used to doing quite well in road races, and some of them are going to be coming in at or near the back of the field.

I only joined a club last year (mostly so I could help out with the juniors as my own do some of the sessions). The previous years last place times really put me off doing the novices cross country - after going to them, it didn't really seem a complete rather than compete vibe. With laps, there's no hiding places either. Niether are criticisms, just giving a perspective of an outsider/ newbie!

adrian522

RayCun wrote: »

17 euro per adult and 12 per juvenile goes to Athletics ireland for registration and insurance (plus a couple of hundred to register the club).

In my club, the juvenile registration mostly goes on facilities hire (halls, tracks) and competition entry. Plus bits and pieces like parties, awards, coach training.

Adult registration, most of it is put aside for larger expenses.




Most people who start running as adults start in mass participation road races, and go straight to the marathon. Track and XC are seen as things for 'real runners', while a lot of late starters see themselves as social runners. (For some people, running track or XC then becomes a way to prove that they are 'real runners' )

Even entering track and XC races can be a bit of a hurdle, because many of them are club-only events, with a different entry system.

The main issue, though, is the standard. If you run a road race, a bunch of the people in the race will only run now and again, and lots of them don't do real training. Pretty much anyone from a club is going to finish in front of a lot of people. Go to a track or an XC race, and everyone is a club runner. On the track, you will have fewer than 20 people in a race, and the chances of not only coming last, but last by a long way, are substantial. The field in XC is bigger, but its a field of people who are used to doing quite well in road races, and some of them are going to be coming in at or near the back of the field.

So it takes a while to convert new road running members into people who'll run XC or track. Partly it's about building their confidence as runners, and partly about building a club culture where people do these things to be part of the team.

They announced at the Dublin Masters yesterday that it was the largest entry they'd ever had so obviously some of the increased numbers are filtering through.

RayCun

Sportsworld are a good example of the club culture being to compete in cross country - they always put in teams (except when they are away sunning themselves on a beach!), and they have cross country training sessions in the autumn. I'm sure there are runners there who, if they'd joined another club, wouldn't be running these races. But everyone else is doing it, so they do too...

Testosterscone

Macy0161 wrote: »

The previous years last place times really put me off doing the novices cross country - after going to them, it didn't really seem a complete rather than compete vibe. With laps, there's no hiding places either. Niether are criticisms, just giving a perspective of an outsider/ newbie!

The complete vs complete is one of the points from the article regarding the sport and one of the main points brought up. Why is competing a bad thing? Competition is often mistaken with just winning.

Take 5 a side football teams would people suggest that adults not keep score? Likewise in golf

Parkruns have a timing element so there is obviously an element of competition otherwise they wouldn't bother timing

For what it's worth as a senior I have never been in top 10 even in any race and often times been in bottom 25% but often some of my most memorable races have been racing people coming down to a sprint finish for an arbitrary finishing position. I have gotten to know people in the running community simply from being around them in races on a regular basis pushing each other.

RayCun

Testosterscone wrote: »

Take 5 a side football teams would people suggest that adults not keep score? Likewise in golf

in fairness, in football teams are usually divided into leagues so they are roughly the same standard, and in golf there are handicaps to equalise scores

Macy0161

Testosterscone wrote: »

The complete vs complete is one of the points from the article regarding the sport and one of the main points brought up. Why is competing a bad thing? Competition is often mistaken with just winning.

I didn't say it was a bad thing.

I do race and definitely don't consider myself a "completer" - but while I'm definite mid pack fodder, I train and race to improve either in terms of position, or times, or both. However, the jump in standard looked too great.

Testosterscone

RayCun wrote: »

in fairness, in football teams are usually divided into leagues so they are roughly the same standard, and in golf there are handicaps to equalise scores

But even teams that go through whole season are trying to win. The point I am making is that competitive spirit it whether you are 1st or 100th can still be there and the bigger the fields the wider level of abilities covered. Competition should not be seen as something to dissuade people as competitive spirit and respect for your competitor should not be viewed as a negative. It's the ethos of sport and should be encouraged. Completion in itself removes this entering the sport from the other positive elements and ultimately general well being.

Health is often cited as the great thing from park run but is running in itself is not making a lifestyle change. A person can complete parkruns with a poor diet and general lifestyle but competitiveness can have more lasting effects in lifestyle changes.

(This is not a pop at anyone taking up the sport before I am being labelled as elitist)

Macy0161 wrote: »

I didn't say it was a bad thing.

I do race and definitely don't consider myself a "completer" - but while I'm definite mid pack fodder, I train and race to improve either in terms of position, or times, or both. However, the jump in standard looked too great.

Sorry wasn't attacking you there just using as a reference point as was one of the main points of the article.

I think the high entry level is the issue. Many people coming to the sport are coming from couch to five k or similar backgrounds and completion mindset is seen as the end goal and parkrun is a tangible end point for this. The problem is that this doesn't feed into the sport majority do this by running miles, complete and have no guidance so tend to look for another progression and run more miles

More miles becomes the answer rather than progression of training, addition of other elements of training (drills, mobility, form, etc)

They remove themselves from what's viewed as the "talented runners who came through the clubs" rather than asking why they are able to run 15,16,17,18 min etc. As a result they won't enter these "club races" thus keeping the high entry threshold.

Ideally Novice cross country would be of huge benefit to many of those runners looking to improve there times and overall development to point where they could easily reach these sort of standards in time but the fall into a trap of overtraining getting injured and repeating the cycle.

As a therapist my busiest months of the year tend to be September and October with the majority of clients being relatively new to the sport in marathon training. More often than not these are simple overuse issues. Many of these won't take on the advice given or rehab required and many come away ticking the box of completion with the battle scars of their injuries and trump over getting through the day but arguably they disappear 1-2 years down the line with more wear and tear than they would have had by not taking up the sport lifestyles haven't changed in any long term meaningful way where as those who aim to compete will make those little changes (getting robbed that half an hour earlier, keeping an eye on hydration,cutting back on drink the week of a race) the mental connections start to be made between feeling that bit better and looking after yourself that can transfer to life long skills.

Unless there is efforts made to bridge the gap between compete and complete the huge parkrun numbers and bridge the entry level to the sport as a sport the numbers I feel that participation in parkruns is not having as big an overall impact on improving the health and fitness as the numbers would indicate

adrian522

Macy0161 wrote: »

I didn't say it was a bad thing.

I do race and definitely don't consider myself a "completer" - but while I'm definite mid pack fodder, I train and race to improve either in terms of position, or times, or both. However, the jump in standard looked too great.

Pretty much in the same boat as yourself. I would never enter track or XC races. Last year I started by entering the BHAA XC races and the Trinity track races as they were bigger fields and a wider range of standards. Then also did the Master XC.

This year I jumped into the Novice (Leinster and National) and was quite conscious of the fact that I could be the last man home. In the end I don't see it as a big deal as someone always will come in last but if it is a good event and improves my running I'll just get over that aspect of it.

I ended up finishing 3rd last and 2nd last in those 2 races but didn't really have a bad experience as a result as I went in with realistic expectations and I'd have no issue running those races again.

Basically I guess I'm saying if you are interested in XC the BHAA is a great place to start but don't be afraid of the championship races, the support is great and you can''t beat the team element.