Smart Lights vs Smart Switches

Nelbert

Hi All,

Looking for a discussion. One of my final automation steps is ceiling lights in the house.

For this my plan has been to leverage existing z wave hub and get Fibaro Dimmer modules (just need a live and switched live at the switch, thus avoiding any rewiring).

However I’ve 0 objection to getting say an ikea smart light hub or a hue hub instead if it makes sense.

Our main use of ceiling lights is in the kitchen and the hall / landing lights. Others are very rarely used and lamps are what are mainly used.

The kitchen lights are on a dimmer switch at the moment and both these areas are within voice coverage of respective echos. Other areas would follow the lead of whatever was suitable for these most likely.

So would be interested in people’s thoughts?

Also would like to clarify what happens with these bulbs when you turn them on or off at the switch? WAF is huge so having herself flick a switch on and off and nothing happen because the bulb is set to off would be a big no no for example.

leonffrench

I just decked out the house with Philips hue bulbs and it seems such a waste now because everyone else in the house turns them off at the switch so alexa can't control them. The switch needs to be on at the wall for them to work. Once the switch is on you can turn lights on and off from phone/alexa. If the bulb is off but switch is on the lights can be turned on by flicking switch to off and then back on. Hope this makes sense. I will probably get smart switches at some point so others can turn on and off switch all they want but lights can still be operated

Nelbert

leonffrench wrote: »

I just decked out the house with Philips hue bulbs and it seems such a waste now because everyone else in the house turns them off at the switch so alexa can't control them. The switch needs to be on at the wall for them to work. Once the switch is on you can turn lights on and off from phone/alexa. If the bulb is off but switch is on the lights can be turned on by flicking switch to off and then back on. Hope this makes sense. I will probably get smart switches at some point so others can turn on and off switch all they want but lights can still be operated

Thanks so to clarify if they are “off” via voice or app control, toggling the switch off and back on turns the bulbs back on? Good to know.

leonffrench

Nelbert wrote:

Thanks so to clarify if they are “off†via voice or app control, toggling the switch off and back on turns the bulbs back on? Good to know.

Yes that's exactly it.

wexfordman2

Nelbert wrote: »

Thanks so to clarify if they are “off” via voice or app control, toggling the switch off and back on turns the bulbs back on? Good to know.

Yep, but If they are on, toggling the switch does not turn them off again. This I think is a major flaw with smart lightbulbs, if they had thus feature then they would be almostna virtual replacement of existing bulbs and the light switch could be used almost as normal (replacing it with a momentary switch would get you 100% there).

I would go for smart switches instead if bulbs tbh (bulbs for lamps though )

leonffrench

wexfordman2 wrote:

Yep, but If they are on, toggling the switch does not turn them off again. This I think is a major flaw with smart lightbulbs, if they had thus feature then they would be almostna virtual replacement of existing bulbs and the light switch could be used almost as normal (replacing it with a momentary switch would get you 100% there).

Mine do? Philips Hue

wexfordman2

leonffrench wrote: »

Mine do? Philips Hue

Yep, Philips hue, here is what I find

Initially off: toggle switch off and on again, light comes on.
Initially on:- toggle switch off and on again, light still on.

You can't turn the light off without using the app or a Philips switch

Do you find it different ?

leonffrench

wexfordman2 wrote:

Do you find it different ?

Yes mine will go on or off at the switch no matter what the app says. Could be something to do with how your lights are wired maybe?

wexfordman2

leonffrench wrote: »

Yes mine will go on or off at the switch no matter what the app says. Could be something to do with how your lights are wired maybe?

Jist to make sure we havnt got our wires crossed, cos if its doing what you are saying, then brilliant.

If my hue light is on, I can turn it off at the light switch, but obviously, it can only then be turned back on via the light switch.

If my light switch is on, and my hue light is off, I can quickly turn the light switch off and back on again, and the light comes on.

If my switch is on, and my light is on, then turning the switch off and on again results in the light still being on.

So basically, with the light bulb on, the only way to turn it off is

A) switch it off at the light, where it remains off and no app control will turn it back in again.
turn it off via the app

matrim

I've blocked off the main light switch and added a hue dimmer switch in the rooms where I still want physical control.

Nelbert

So do folks think the idea of adjusting wiring to make ceiling live at all times (ie swap switch for connection block and cover with a blanking plate) and command stripping the TRÅDFRI remote control (for example) to the blanking plate would be a better idea?

Would avoid the on / off confusion at switch vs app level?

The fibaro modules involve taking out backing box, and making holes deeper to facilitate deeper backing boxes hence why I’m open to alternatives.

matrim

Nelbert wrote: »

The fibaro modules involve taking out backing box, and making holes deeper to facilitate deeper backing boxes hence why I’m open to alternatives.

Apparently the Xiaomi switches work in Ireland but I haven't tried them

Nelbert

matrim wrote: »

Apparently the Xiaomi switches work in Ireland but I haven't tried them

Hmmm...... do they work with any of the well known zigbee hubs?

matrim

Nelbert wrote: »

Hmmm...... do they work with any of the well known zigbee hubs?

If you ask in the xiaomi thread someone might be able to give more details. Apparently people have gotten some of their stuff to work with smartthings hub.

eddiem74

Nelbert wrote: »

The fibaro modules involve taking out backing box, and making holes deeper to facilitate deeper backing boxes hence why I’m open to alternatives.

Depending on how many switches you need to operate and the size of the existing back box you might get away without going to that trouble.

bk

leonffrench wrote: »

I just decked out the house with Philips hue bulbs and it seems such a waste now because everyone else in the house turns them off at the switch so alexa can't control them. The switch needs to be on at the wall for them to work. Once the switch is on you can turn lights on and off from phone/alexa. If the bulb is off but switch is on the lights can be turned on by flicking switch to off and then back on. Hope this makes sense. I will probably get smart switches at some point so others can turn on and off switch all they want but lights can still be operated

I found that the key to WAF, is to add Hue Dimmer switches above the old fashioned switch.

I then covered the old switch with a switch cover so that it can still be used, but less likely to be accidentally used.

I found these ones very good:

https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Bathroom-Wall-Switch-Flip-Cap-White-Plastic-Waterproof-Cover-BF-/253308624283?hash=item3afa5edd9b

Nelbert wrote: »

So do folks think the idea of adjusting wiring to make ceiling live at all times (ie swap switch for connection block and cover with a blanking plate) and command stripping the TRÅDFRI remote control (for example) to the blanking plate would be a better idea?

You could, but I prefer to leave the switch there as a backup, but cover it with the above switch cover so that it isn't accidentally used.

There are some other inventive solutions out there that people 3D print to cover the old switch with a holder for a Hue dimmer switch, so that the old switch is hidden but still available.

Nelbert wrote: »

Hmmm...... do they work with any of the well known zigbee hubs?

I've read that single button switch can work with SmartThings but the double buttons ones don't work properly. The Xioami stuff uses non standard zigbee.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Jist to make sure we havnt got our wires crossed, cos if its doing what you are saying, then brilliant.

If my hue light is on, I can turn it off at the light switch, but obviously, it can only then be turned back on via the light switch.

If my light switch is on, and my hue light is off, I can quickly turn the light switch off and back on again, and the light comes on.

If my switch is on, and my light is on, then turning the switch off and on again results in the light still being on.

So basically, with the light bulb on, the only way to turn it off is

A) switch it off at the light, where it remains off and no app control will turn it back in again.
turn it off via the app

Or by voice, or using the Hue Dimmer switch, or using motion sensors, or using timmers or using sunrise/sunset routines or using Harmony Remotes, etc. The list is pretty exhaustive.

To be honest, once you really start to get into Hue, you start completely forgetting about switches completely, even my Hue dimmer switches are rarely enough used.

BTW what actually happens when you toggle off and on again the physical switch, is that the bulb reset to it's default ON state.

So lets say you had the bulb set to Red colour and 50% brightness. Switching it off and on again at the wall switch, turns it off and then back on to white at 100%.

Just cover the wall switch and use Hue dimmer switches, etc. and you quickly forget about all this.

bk

Getting back to the OP's question.

IMO Hue Smart lights are better then Smart Switches in most cases.

Smart switches just allow for on/off control and maybe dimming. While Hue also gives you support for white ambiance, which I find great and full colour too. It is a whole level up.

Hue has an amazing level of integration with so many other smart ecosystems, just makes it great, GH, Alexa, Siri, Harmony, Nest, SmartThings, IFTTT, Stringify, etc. This makes it very powerful.

Then add the Hue Dimmer Switches, Motion Sensors, lamps, light strips and things like sunset routines, etc. and you have a very powerful platform.

The only advantage I see with smart light switches is that they maybe cheaper if you have a lot of bulbs on one switch and allow control over unusual light types.

However I think the former might be going away with the use of cheaper Ikea smart bulbs with the Hue bridge.

Stoner

bk wrote:

However I think the former might be going away with the use of cheaper Ikea smart bulbs with the Hue bridge.

Couple of things.

WRT Wexfordman2 yes you are correct there is no "soft"off on the hue lamps.

You can't turn them off at the switch to a state that they can be turned on again by the app.

This would be very handy and if they operated something similar to daili mains you could get better use out of them

But I noted that the Ikea lamps don't react aswell to being switched on at the switch you often have to flick the switch a few times.

This might not be a big deal to some but it can take away from the lights acting exactly as they use to before the addition of a hue bridge.


On that other option. If they let you use a normally closed momentary switch you could leave your wiring as it was but you'd use the switchwire to pulse the lamp to turn it on, off dim etc

You'd get some unwanted falshing but it would be closer to a working soultion.

Again I'd imagine it's part of Philips reluctance to produce an inline switch unit, it's not part of the zigbee certification so they can keep out third part non zigbee solutions.

wexfordman2

Stoner wrote: »

Couple of things.

WRT Wexfordman2 yes you are correct there is no "soft"off on the hue lamps.

You can't turn them off at the switch to a state that they can be turned on again by the app.

This would be very handy and if they operated something similar to daili mains you could get better use out of them

But I noted that the Ikea lamps don't react aswell to being switched on at the switch you often have to flick the switch a few times.

This might not be a big deal to some but it can take away from the lights acting exactly as they use to before the addition of a hue bridge.


On that other option. If they let you use a normally closed momentary switch you could leave your wiring as it was but you'd use the switchwire to pulse the lamp to turn it on, off dim etc

You'd get some unwanted falshing but it would be closer to a working soultion.

Again I'd imagine it's part of Philips reluctance to produce an inline switch unit, it's not part of the zigbee certification so they can keep out third part non zigbee solutions.

The more I think about it, the more I am beginning to think that smart bulbs etc are not a good idea for whole house automation, there are just too many if's,buts and single points of failure.

1) They cannot use standard or momentary light switches as a direct replacement for existing light switches.
2) Alternative is a seperate stick on switch and blanking out the existing wall switch, but tbh, I dont think this is in any way a viable solution, and its also expensive.
3) A bulb per fitting, again, I have a number of rooms with 7 or more gu10's on a single circuit, thats unrealisticly expensive to do so.
4) Compatibility, the ikea tradfi as a cost effective replacement/alternative to hue devices, appears to be a bit flaky, and I would not like to rely on this for long term functionality.
5) Single point of failure. If your hub goes faulty, then do your lights still work ? I might be wrong on this, maybe ?


A hardwired solution per circuit is the ideal solution imho. Hue is great, but for lamps and decorative lighting only, I cant see the logic in deploying it over a full house. If you are rewiring, I would def look at alternatives.

matrim

wexfordman2 wrote: »

5) Single point of failure. If your hub goes faulty, then do your lights still work ? I might be wrong on this, maybe ?

If your hub stops working then your light works as a normal dumb light. Turn on the wall switch and it lights up to the default.

Couldn't you have a similar point of failure problem with smart switches on the wall? Something still has to tell them to be set to on or off

Wossack

bk wrote: »

Getting back to the OP's question.

IMO Hue Smart lights are better then Smart Switches in most cases.

Smart switches just allow for on/off control and maybe dimming. While Hue also gives you support for white ambiance, which I find great and full colour too. It is a whole level up.

Hue has an amazing level of integration with so many other smart ecosystems, just makes it great, GH, Alexa, Siri, Harmony, Nest, SmartThings, IFTTT, Stringify, etc. This makes it very powerful.

Then add the Hue Dimmer Switches, Motion Sensors, lamps, light strips and things like sunset routines, etc. and you have a very powerful platform.

The only advantage I see with smart light switches is that they maybe cheaper if you have a lot of bulbs on one switch and allow control over unusual light types.

However I think the former might be going away with the use of cheaper Ikea smart bulbs with the Hue bridge.

this is selling smart switches a little short :pac: they can do everything hue bulbs do, bar change colours/colour temp (and if you were dead set on that, you could combine hue and smart switches)

Most important aspect is the intuitiveness of a regular physical switch. No app needed, or visitor briefing

bk

wexfordman2 wrote: »

The more I think about it, the more I am beginning to think that smart bulbs etc are not a good idea for whole house automation, there are just too many if's,buts and single points of failure.

Having kitted out my entire home with Hue smart bulbs (and a sprinkling of Ikea), I couldn't disagree more with you.

I find it incredibly reliable, I wouldn't have gone all in on Hue if I hadn't found it reliable and past the family acceptance test.

I think the difficulty you are having is thinking that light switches are important. Once you go Hue, you quickly and completely forget about using light switches any more.

Lights simply come on and go off as I walk around the house, without me touching a thing. You stop even thinking about it once set up and end up getting annoyed when staying in an old fashioned house with switches.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

1) They cannot use standard or momentary light switches as a direct replacement for existing light switches.

It REALLY, REALLY, doesn't matter, you just use Hue dimmers switches if you really want to press something!

wexfordman2 wrote: »

2) Alternative is a seperate stick on switch and blanking out the existing wall switch, but tbh, I dont think this is in any way a viable solution, and its also expensive.

Perfectly viable, I and a loads of other people have done it and are perfectly happy with it.

It isn't that expensive, the cover I use costs just €1.30! And the Hue dimmers give you lots of extra functionality, such as been able to dim and select different scenes, etc.

Also them being remotes is very handy when putting the little one to bed.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

3) A bulb per fitting, again, I have a number of rooms with 7 or more gu10's on a single circuit, thats unrealisticly expensive to do so.

Even with Hue it isn't that costly when you consider the cost of getting an electrician out to run wires to switches, etc.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

4) Compatibility, the ikea tradfi as a cost effective replacement/alternative to hue devices, appears to be a bit flaky, and I would not like to rely on this for long term functionality.

Fair enough, I'll give you that one. Though Hue can be cost effective too if you buy during sales, etc. And then you have the likes of Innr too.

Even if you are starting from scratch, if you sit down and actually do the maths and include all the costs, I'm not sure it will work out cheaper in anything but the most extreme cases. Don't forget the following costs:

- Dimmable LED bulbs
- Vera or LightwaveRF hub
- Wiring and electrician costs if going with a wired solution.

That ain't cheap either unless you are an electrician yourself.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

5) Single point of failure. If your hub goes faulty, then do your lights still work ? I might be wrong on this, maybe?

Yes, they continue to work perfectly as standard bulbs if the hub is down.

As an aside I find Hue bridge to be pretty much the most reliable piece of HA tech I have. It has never failed.

wexfordman2 wrote: »

A hardwired solution per circuit is the ideal solution imho. Hue is great, but for lamps and decorative lighting only, I cant see the logic in deploying it over a full house. If you are rewiring, I would def look at alternatives.

Hue works fantastically over an entire home and gives you WAY more functionality then a simple smart switch.

I'm not saying that there are no uses for smart switches, there are. I might even get one or two myself. But I think their really aren't as useful as smart bulbs and I also think the UK/Ireland market lacks any really good solutions.

With respect I think you are too caught up in what you have and can't really see beyond thinking that you really need a traditional switch. And of course perhaps I'm too caught up in the solution I have in place. But I don't think most of what you say above is true, it certainly isn't for me or most people who use Hue.

Again I want to stress this point, once you start using Hue, you quickly forget about switches at all and it all just becomes automated and even the Hue dimmers get rarely used. Switches really aren't that important when you come down to it.

bk

Wossack wrote: »

this is selling smart switches a little short :pac: they can do everything hue bulbs do, bar change colours/colour temp (and if you were dead set on that, you could combine hue and smart switches)

White Ambiance and Colour are very important additions.

To be honest, I find little benefit in smart switches alone. I mean what is the point in just being able to remotely switch on/off your light. I do that maybe a few times a year.

It if white ambiance and colour that gets used daily.

Wossack wrote: »

Most important aspect is the intuitiveness of a regular physical switch. No app needed, or visitor briefing

Funny that, I've Hue throughout my home and almost never use the app to turn lights on/off.

Hue motion sensors, Hue dimmer switches, Hue scenes, no need to touch an app or old style light switch.

BTW grandparents, friends and baby sitters have had zero issues using my Hue lights and they needed no briefing. They just use the Hue dimmer switches where needed (most rooms don't even need that with motion sensors).

bk

One problem I see with Smart Light switches, is that there is no really great solution for them in the UK/Ireland market and they all offer far less then Hue for similar cost. The solutions I've seen are:

- Require neutral which most Irish homes don't have.
- Are relatively expensive professionally installed systems.
- LightwaveRF, which is very expensive and seems to have issues.
- Xiaomi which is cheap, but doesn't integrate with anything else.

I'm really not seeing what really good smart switch solution people are saying that others should look at?

Wossack

bk wrote: »

White Ambiance and Colour are very important additions.

To be honest, I find little benefit in smart switches alone. I mean what is the point in just being able to remotely switch on/off your light. I do that maybe a few times a year.

It if white ambiance and colour that gets used daily.

Well, you dont use the smart switches alone - in the same way that you arent using your hue bulbs alone (remotes / motion sensors / scenes etc)

bk

Wossack wrote: »

Well, you dont use the smart switches alone - in the same way that you arent using your hue bulbs alone (remotes / motion sensors / scenes etc)

Sure, but that still doesn't get you white ambiance and colour. Unless you are also putting smart bulbs in too, which short of defeats the purpose of the conversation.

Wossack

bk wrote: »

Sure, but that still doesn't get you white ambiance and colour. Unless you are also putting smart bulbs in too, which short of defeats the purpose of the conversation.

nothing is going to get you colour and ambiance short of changing the bulb, yes (a point I conceded earlier)

but if physical switches are of any way a concern (and reading the OP, that appears to be the case - colour/ambiance not mentioned), I think Hue falls short

bk

Wossack wrote: »

nothing is going to get you colour and ambiance short of changing the bulb, yes (a point I conceded earlier)

but if physical switches are of any way a concern (and reading the OP, that appears to be the case - colour/ambiance not mentioned), I think Hue falls short

And what is wrong with the Hue dimmer switch? It covers all of the OP's concerns. It covers the WAF and gives the OP all the control they desire (voice control).

And I'm still not sure what Smart switch people are actually recommending as an alternative?

Wossack

ah, I thought it was the OP who dismissed that idea, but Im mistaken (was wexfordman) - not heard back from OP if it would be a runner

I have fibaro dimmer 2 modules and would recommend (for example - aeotec do similar). No neutral required, mine fitted into regular pattress boxes, and maintained a regular switch plate. You wouldnt know it was there.

bk

I totally get why people like the idea of Smart Switches. The idea seems simple. Just replace your light switch with a wifi switch and now you have smart light switches, nice.

But the reality of the Irish/UK market is that there is little in the way of really good options. The reality doesn't match the theory.

- You have LightwaveRF, which looks great, but is quite expensive and seemingly is having issues with wireless performance.
- Xiaomi which is cheap and cheerful, but doesn't integrate with anything.
- Expensive professional systems, that require ripping holes in your walls and getting electricians in, €€€€.

The lack of Neutral here really limits peoples choices.

I believe that for the vast majority of people wanting smart lighting, given what is available in Ireland, by far the easiest and cheapest option is just banging some Hue bulbs in and a hue dimmer switch. Plus you get the benefit of white ambiance and colour and all the other nice features.

Hopefully some day this will change and we get more smart switch options. But at the moment options aren't great.

bk

Wossack wrote: »

I have fibaro dimmer 2 modules and would recommend (for example - aeotec do similar). No neutral required, mine fitted into regular pattress boxes, and maintained a regular switch plate. You wouldnt know it was there.

Ah, cool, some questions for you so if you don't mind?

- What z-wave hub are you using?
- Are you using a standard light switch with it? As opposed to some Z-wave switch?
- If you are using a standard light switch, what happens if you switch the power off at the light switch? Can you then remotely switch the light on? Or do you have to hit the light switch on first?

Thanks, BTW the conversation between wexfordman2 and I probably went a bit Off Topic and was more about general ideas of approaches to smart lighting, rather then the OP's specific needs.