Smart Lights vs Smart Switches

donspeekinglesh

Had a look behind them light switch in our kitchen, and there's neutral wires there! So smart switches should be possible (will have to double check the living room and other rooms).

I like the look of the Sonoff switches, but they don't seem to do dimming - which we already have in most rooms, so any smart upgrade would need too.
The price of the Lightwaverf gen2 stuff is still putting me off.

bk

Don't assume make sure to double check all switches. I found in my home that some switches had Neutral while others didn't. Just seemed to depend on the wiring layout.

Check out the Fibario dimmer models as an option with smartthings hub or similar.

itzme

bk wrote: »

Don't assume make sure to double check all switches. I found in my home that some switches had Neutral while others didn't. Just seemed to depend on the wiring layout.

Check out the Fibario dimmer models as an option with smartthings hub or similar.

Perfect timing for a question, I'm assuming neutrals are needed in all switches (light switches, dimmers and plug sockets) if going down this route? Literally talking to the electrician about this today.

bk

itzme wrote: »

Perfect timing for a question, I'm assuming neutrals are needed in all switches (light switches, dimmers and plug sockets) if going down this route? Literally talking to the electrician about this today.

Yes on light switches and dimmers. Plug sockets will have neutral anyway. But good idea to get deep wall boxes there too.

itzme

By the way these guys have just launched pre-orders (so anything from they are nearly ready to they are running out of funding) 
https://getden.co.uk/

I really like the fact that the switches are physical so switching something on/off changes the physical state of the switch. One big problems and one concern though, putting something physical like that in means they will break due to use. They seem to be cloud based rather the local API based. So switching on/off needs to send a signal up to and back from their cloud servers.

bk

itzme wrote: »

By the way these guys have just launched pre-orders (so anything from they are nearly ready to they are running out of funding) 
https://getden.co.uk/

Nice, seems to be a more reasonably priced alternative to LightwaveRF.

Say it doesn't need Neutral and has an extender for shallow back boxes. So looks like they have properly thought about the needs to the UK/Irish market.

Uses Zigbee, so while they claim their hub is required, I'm sure someone will figure out how to get it working with SmartThings, etc.

itzme wrote: »

They seem to be cloud based rather the local API based. So switching on/off needs to send a signal up to and back from their cloud servers.

Seems to be Zigbee from switch to their hub. So it should be possible to set it up so the app continues to work even if your broadband is down, same as how Hue works. At least it should do if wee designed, fingers crossed.

I assume the physical switch will always work no matter what.

itzme

ybk wrote: »

itzme wrote: »

By the way these guys have just launched pre-orders (so anything from they are nearly ready to they are running out of funding) 
https://getden.co.uk/

Nice, seems to be a more reasonably priced alternative to LightwaveRF.

Say it doesn't need Neutral and has an extender for shallow back boxes. So looks like they have properly thought about the needs to the UK/Irish market.

Uses Zigbee, so while they claim their hub is required, I'm sure someone will figure out how to get it working with SmartThings, etc.

itzme wrote: »

They seem to be cloud based rather the local API based. So switching on/off needs to send a signal up to and back from their cloud servers.

Seems to be Zigbee from switch to their hub. So it should be possible to set it up so the app continues to work even if your broadband is down, same as how Hue works. At least it should do if wee designed, fingers crossed.

I assume the physical switch will always work no matter what.

That is one of those circular security ones, if they have encrypted their communication between devices and hub it could be tricky to get it working locally outside their service. If they haven't encrypted well for me that is pretty risky (Does anyone remember the hell these little things used to cause: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000B19R0?tag=spiblog-20)
Yeah the physical would be independent of the network which is one of the real beauties of this approach. 
I've sent them a mail asking some of these questions and will add back responses I get here.

bk

itzme wrote: »

That is one of those circular security ones, if they have encrypted their communication between devices and hub it could be tricky to get it working locally outside their service. If they haven't encrypted well for me that is pretty risky (Does anyone remember the hell these little things used to cause: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000B19R0%3Ftag%3Dspiblog-20)
Yeah the physical would be independent of the network which is one of the real beauties of this approach. 
I've sent them a mail asking some of these questions and will add back responses I get here.

Not really, pretty straight forward.

Encryption between the devices and hub over zigbee. And separately have the iOS/Andriod app talk directly to the hub over wifi, again encrypt that link.

Even if your broadband is down, as long as your wifi still works, most of the app should work too.

That is how Hue works. Knock your broadband off (wifi still up) and the app still works, you can turn on/off lights, change colours, etc. All you lose is the more advanced features, remote access, Goggle Home, IFTTT, etc.

That is the advantage of having a hub. Stupid to have a hub and not do this (looking at you Energenie MiHome!), hell even TP_Link plugs manage to do that and they are wifi only.

Having said that, with the news of Hue gaining support for switches, my interest wanes.

donspeekinglesh

bk wrote: »

Check out the Fibario dimmer models as an option with smartthings hub or similar.

Yeah, I think they're the best option - price is a bit cheaper than LightwaveRF (on Amazon), and the ST hub is cheaper and more flexible. Is Amazon the best place to get them (both hub abd Fibario), or just keep an eye out for deals where ever?

bk

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

Yeah, I think they're the best option - price is a bit cheaper than LightwaveRF (on Amazon), and the ST hub is cheaper and more flexible. Is Amazon the best place to get them (both hub abd Fibario), or just keep an eye out for deals where ever?

Obviously keep an eye out everywhere, but generally speaking Amazon is hard to beat.

Though the SmartThings hub is currently £50 on Amazon, which is the cheapest I've ever seen it.

https://www.vesternet.com is also a very good place to keep an eye out for Fibario gear, plus great advice.

Stoner

itzme wrote:

Perfect timing for a question, I'm assuming neutrals are needed in all switches (light switches, dimmers and plug sockets) if going down this route? Literally talking to the electrician about this today.

Lightwaverf does not need a neutral.

Either does Fibaro but it works out better with it.

SONOFF switches need a neutral as they switch the power on and off.

I don't know much about lightwaverf gen 2 but the initial switches broke my heart.

Sockets are great though

donspeekinglesh

Bought a Fibaro module. Any suggestions on a good momentary switch to use? Nothing fancy - just plain white.
Bought some from Scewfix, but 1-way is not the same as momentary.

wexfordman2

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

Bought a Fibaro module. Any suggestions on a good momentary switch to use? Nothing fancy - just plain white.
Bought some from Scewfix, but 1-way is not the same as momentary.

Head into kellihers electrical or other such outlet and try a few to see would be my suggestion.

Avoid clipsal ones, they are very hard to press, you nearly need to lean your body into it when pushing.

I have nice brushed steel ones, can't remember the make at the moment, but lively switches

lordgoat

Schneider everywhere for me.

eddiem74

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

Bought a Fibaro module. Any suggestions on a good momentary switch to use? Nothing fancy - just plain white.
Bought some from Scewfix, but 1-way is not the same as momentary.

I have used the following from Varilight which allows you to build your own switch combinations.

https://www.varilight.co.uk/ranges/powergrid-range.php

https://www.varilight.co.uk/configurator/product.php?code=G102SRC

Nedved85

Hi all,

I have read through the thread, A bit confused by it all.

I am buying a new build house and the 1st fix is already done, so standard switches are being lined up for the second fix - That's not going to change unfortunately.

As far as I know - each switch does not have a neutral at the moment.

I have two plans in mind.

1. Put Philips hue everywhere and use the dimmer switches combined with 3d printed wall plates ==> https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Twin-Light-Switch-Cover-Plate-White-for-Philips-Hue-Dimmer-Switch-3D-printed/142735621455?hash=item213bb4bd4f:g:VswAAOSwWY5ajxPh

This is the simplest solution and if I ever sell the place, I can take the philips hue setup with me entirely.

Option 2 is:

- After handover of the house, get the electrician to retro fit neutral to all of the switches (He seems to think this should be possible - by cutting a few floorboards)
- Install Sonoff switches - or other suggestions welcome. I was advised to research broadlink, but I'm not sure about them..

I was thinking of trying out a prototype with the electrician by buying a 3 gang Sonoff : https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07B8MGYYG/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A26QA7NDH2SGKH&psc=1

and a Sonoff WiFi Wireless Smart Switch Module

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Sonoff-Wireless-Modified-Low-cost-Compatible/dp/B06WWNBD3Y/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1523795631&sr=8-4&keywords=sonoff+switch+module

My question is, do I need a wireless switch module for every Sonoff Switch, or worse again for every gang within that switch (ie a 3 gang switch would require 3 sonoff wireless modules ? )

It's a pity Sonoff can't do dimming.

My ultimate goal is to be able to turn on/off all of the house lights via Google Home. I would like to avoid a situation where a hard power off of a switch is possible so Google is unable to control the light.

The philips hue option allows this, but the Sonoffs look much nicer on the wall.

Thanks in advance

wexfordman2

Nedved85 wrote: »

Hi all,

I have read through the thread, A bit confused by it all.

I am buying a new build house and the 1st fix is already done, so standard switches are being lined up for the second fix - That's not going to change unfortunately.

As far as I know - each switch does not have a neutral at the moment.

I have two plans in mind.

1. Put Philips hue everywhere and use the dimmer switches combined with 3d printed wall plates ==> https://www.ebay.ie/itm/Twin-Light-Switch-Cover-Plate-White-for-Philips-Hue-Dimmer-Switch-3D-printed/142735621455?hash=item213bb4bd4f:g:VswAAOSwWY5ajxPh

This is the simplest solution and if I ever sell the place, I can take the philips hue setup with me entirely.

Option 2 is:

- After handover of the house, get the electrician to retro fit neutral to all of the switches (He seems to think this should be possible - by cutting a few floorboards)
- Install Sonoff switches - or other suggestions welcome. I was advised to research broadlink, but I'm not sure about them..

I was thinking of trying out a prototype with the electrician by buying a 3 gang Sonoff : https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07B8MGYYG/ref=ox_sc_act_title_2?smid=A26QA7NDH2SGKH&psc=1

and a Sonoff WiFi Wireless Smart Switch Module

https://smile.amazon.co.uk/Sonoff-Wireless-Modified-Low-cost-Compatible/dp/B06WWNBD3Y/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1523795631&sr=8-4&keywords=sonoff+switch+module

My question is, do I need a wireless switch module for every Sonoff Switch, or worse again for every gang within that switch (ie a 3 gang switch would require 3 sonoff wireless modules ? )

It's a pity Sonoff can't do dimming.

My ultimate goal is to be able to turn on/off all of the house lights via Google Home. I would like to avoid a situation where a hard power off of a switch is possible so Google is unable to control the light.

The philips hue option allows this, but the Sonoffs look much nicer on the wall.

Thanks in advance

Technically and practically I think a solution that does not use hue as your room switched lights is a better option, because:-

A) Messing with wall switches, even the 3d printed solution you gave (which is a good solution for hue I think) is not ideal. My aim would be to have the house operating and looking as near to normal as possible.
cost. Price out the cost of all the 3d printed wall plates, all the hue bulbs you need and see how it looks.

With hue, you do get the nice light tones etc, bit you could look at doing something like that using hue lights in lamps for lighting effect.


If you are talking about getting an electrician to wire neutrals to the wall switch, then you have more options, not just sonoff, but you could look at fibaro in line modules which fit behind the lightswitch as well. Doing it this way, you have the option of using whatever type of lightswitch style you want, and you are less restricted as well, always able to go for different manufacturer in line modules etc.

That depends a bit on how much room you have behind your light switch and how many circuits for each switch etc as well.

If you are getting your electrician to wire a neutral to each wall switch, then it might be worth considering getting him to run a cat 5 to the wall switch as well, bit that's a whole.other discussion for another thread I think.

Nedved85

wexfordman2 wrote: »

Technically and practically I think a solution that does not use hue as your room switched lights is a better option, because:-

A) Messing with wall switches, even the 3d printed solution you gave (which is a good solution for hue I think) is not ideal. My aim would be to have the house operating and looking as near to normal as possible.
cost. Price out the cost of all the 3d printed wall plates, all the hue bulbs you need and see how it looks.

With hue, you do get the nice light tones etc, bit you could look at doing something like that using hue lights in lamps for lighting effect.


If you are talking about getting an electrician to wire neutrals to the wall switch, then you have more options, not just sonoff, but you could look at fibaro in line modules which fit behind the lightswitch as well. Doing it this way, you have the option of using whatever type of lightswitch style you want, and you are less restricted as well, always able to go for different manufacturer in line modules etc.

That depends a bit on how much room you have behind your light switch and how many circuits for each switch etc as well.

If you are getting your electrician to wire a neutral to each wall switch, then it might be worth considering getting him to run a cat 5 to the wall switch as well, bit that's a whole.other discussion for another thread I think.

I'm just wondering would you not be worried that sonoff dissappear and there cloud service goes away with it, rendering the switches useless unless you set up your own home cloud? (I can only imagine the conversation I'd have with herself trying to explain that..)

wexfordman2

Nedved85 wrote: »

I'm just wondering would you not be worried that sonoff dissappear and there cloud service goes away with it, rendering the switches useless unless you set up your own home cloud? (I can only imagine the conversation I'd have with herself trying to explain that..)

Hi,

I don't have any sonoff gear, but yes, I think one if the most important things is that your system should continue to work if you lose your broadband or wifi, and thats a drawback with sonoff wall switches. Partly why I was suggesting looking at some of the inline modules that fit behind the wall switch, these can work as normal if you lose all connectivity.

I don't have a wireless system, mine is a hardwired system that will work as normal if you unlug or disconnect all the smarts.

It is also done in a way that even the manufacturer goes bust, the system can be easily replaced as the wiring schematic is common across a number of smart home manufacturer's use (although that would be something I hope never to have to do).

End of the day, in an ideal scenario, the system should

A) be discreet, ie, not noticably different to look at and use to a bog standard dumb house.
Be capable of running as normal in the event of loss of connectivity and not dependent on a single point of failure which renders the system unusable. There should be no scenario where no matter what happens I simply can't turn a light on or off at the wall switch.
C) should be replaceable, ie, if I need to go for another vendor or technology, it should not require a house rewire.


Again, my system is a hardwired one, and systems like that need to be planned prior to first fix stage, but I have think in line modules like fibaro etc will or could deliver near enough functionality.

PS:- I have hue as well, but just for lamps.

wexfordman2

Take a look at these as an example, I think the module shown gives you two circuits

https://www.vesternet.com/z-wave-plus-aeotec-dual-nano-switch-with-power-metering

Works 100% using existing wall switch, and will work manually as a normal light switch even with smarts gone

Nedved85

OK - Thanks for that. I need to do a bit more research on the hardwire solutions available .
I spoke to my electrician and he can install neutral to each of the light sockets for a reasonable figure, by lifting some floorboards and fishing the cable down.
I should definitely get the neutral wired now for future proofing?
I need to make a call on this today apparently :ermm:

wexfordman2

Nedved85 wrote: »

OK - Thanks for that. I need to do a bit more research on the hardwire solutions available .
I spoke to my electrician and he can install neutral to each of the light sockets for a reasonable figure, by lifting some floorboards and fishing the cable down.
I should definitely get the neutral wired now for future proofing?
I need to make a call on this today apparently :ermm:

Well, definately put the neutral in, then I would buy a sonoff and an inline module like i sent you, and play with them even show them to your electrician. Once you have a neutral, the only.challenge (if any) with the inline modules is how many you can fit into a switch backbox, but its possible they could be fitted elsewhere near the switch either.

Nedved85

Thanks for the quick reply - I will speak to the foreman to see if he'll allow me to get the neutral in - The electrician is on for it and so am I. It's just whether the foreman allows us to lift a few floorboards to wire down the neutral.
Thanks - i may have more questions soon

wexfordman2

Nedved85 wrote: »

Thanks for the quick reply - I will speak to the foreman to see if he'll allow me to get the neutral in - The electrician is on for it and so am I. It's just whether the foreman allows us to lift a few floorboards to wire down the neutral.
Thanks - i may have more questions soon

No bother, just note, I havnt used any of those particular in line modules, but I used to have very similar ones before using older x10 automation system, the principle is the same, just a different protocol.

Worth talking to vesternet as well re a controller, there are options here as well, but I would prob look to connect them to a smart things hub to give you google home or Alexa control

Nedved85

Just had a browse on verternet.com - so many options out there for home automation!
So with a neutral to the light switches - I can retrofit whatever smart light switch I choose.
That's my short term goal today anyway - I just want the option of upgrading to proper smart switches down the line without tearing down the house :P
I could be asking you questions all day I'd say

rkdub

eddiem74 wrote: »

I have used the following from Varilight which allows you to build your own switch combinations.

https://www.varilight.co.uk/ranges/powergrid-range.php

https://www.varilight.co.uk/configurator/product.php?code=G102SRC

Any recommendations on where to source online or locally (galway\dub) Schneider or varilight?

donspeekinglesh

I ordered the Varilight from socketstore.co.uk via parcel motel. Has taken a week and I should have it tomorrow.

Shipping to Ireland is crazy, but NI is free.

Nedved85

Hi all, bit of an update on the house build. Neutral wire is into all of my wall switches now.
I have a problem with three of the switches however for the downstairs and upstairs hall.
The switch just at the bottom of the stairs is 2 gang 2 way (lights upstairs and the toilet right beside the stairs)
Electrician says he can change this to:
1 gang 1 way for the toilet
1 gang 2 way for the upstairs light
Then upstairs there are two switches in the hall, both 1 gang 2 way.
Are there any smart switches out there that can do 1 gang two way?
For all of the other switches I was going to install these:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/LYASI-Tempered-Touch-Screen-Switches-Protection/dp/B0769GG1VK/ref=sr_1_18_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1525960973&sr=8-18-spons&keywords=2+gang+2+way+smart+light+switch&psc=1 ;
Which the electrician thinks should be compatible for all of the other switches in the house.
Thanks in advance

lordgoat

Nedved85 wrote: »

Hi all, bit of an update on the house build. Neutral wire is into all of my wall switches now.
I have a problem with three of the switches however for the downstairs and upstairs hall.
The switch just at the bottom of the stairs is 2 gang 2 way (lights upstairs and the toilet right beside the stairs)
Electrician says he can change this to:
1 gang 1 way for the toilet
1 gang 2 way for the upstairs light
Then upstairs there are two switches in the hall, both 1 gang 2 way.
Are there any smart switches out there that can do 1 gang two way?
For all of the other switches I was going to install these:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/LYASI-Tempered-Touch-Screen-Switches-Protection/dp/B0769GG1VK/ref=sr_1_18_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1525960973&sr=8-18-spons&keywords=2+gang+2+way+smart+light+switch&psc=1 
Which the electrician thinks should be compatible for all of the other switches in the house.
Thanks in advance

Others will be able to advise you better but those switches only work with 2.4Ghz wifi so if you ever switched to a 5GHz only router these wouldn't work.

Also do these only work when your wifi is on? They are a nice looking switch.

Nedved85

Hi,
Yes these work without wifi - which is why I like them.
I'll have Google wifi dotted around the house which has both 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz.
I'm not sure what I require exists at the moment