Which PCP air rifle?

Mtx

Looking for a PCP rifle around 200-350 pound, I can be used or new. I want to kill rabbits, crows, magpies etc on my own property.
Noticed some great second hand guns like a BSA ultra.22 for 349 and a weihrauch .22 hw100 for 340.

murph226

I have a HW100KT and love it, haven't used a BSA though so can't comment on it.

Mtx

murph226 wrote: »

I have a HW100KT and love it, haven't used a BSA though so can't comment on it.

Well that's over 900 pound lol

extremetaz

If you can get the HW100 for that sort of money then jump on it! 2 of them have passed through my hands, the '100T in .177 and the '100KT in .22 and they were both formidable - the KT is the better field tool though, the full lenght version is a bit to long and unwieldy to shoot in anything but a supported position.

The BSA Ultra I'm not famliar with, I hear good things about the R-10 though.

Don't forget to budget for a means to charge the rifle as well, either Hill pump or dive bottle (and to be honest, you want the latter).

murph226

Are you sure its a HW100 you can get for 340, sounds very cheap.

Mtx

murph226 wrote: »

Are you sure its a HW100 you can get for 340, sounds very cheap.

Must be wrong here, it's probably the Springer version?
Anyway, I'm almost definitely looking at second hand guns now considering the bottle and gun cabinet costs. Daystar huntsman .22 looks good 2nd hand.

extremetaz

murph226 wrote: »

Are you sure its a HW100 you can get for 340, sounds very cheap.

Mtx wrote: »

Must be wrong here, it's probably the Springer version?

That sounds more likely, I was shocked to hear of a '100 in any condition at that sort of price.

Mtx wrote: »

Anyway, I'm almost definitely looking at second hand guns now considering the bottle and gun cabinet costs. Daystar huntsman .22 looks good 2nd hand.

Think you mean Daystate Huntsman. Daystates are decent rifles - for similar money though you may be able to find a Weihrauch HW 80, 85, 90, 95 or 97 though, and those are all superior.

The '80, '85 and '95 are all break barrel springers; the '90 is a break barrel gas ram; and the '97 is an underlever springer. They all pop up in the €350 bracket from time to time but, frankly, they should be a LOT more. I've used the '85 and the '97 in .22, and the '90 in .177 and again, they're all incredibly accurate, although shooting the springer/ram does take a good deal more discipline than the PCP as there's a lot of recoil control involved - you also can't "rest" them on any thing directly, and forget about bipods. None of that matters if you're shooting in field positions but if you're planning on setting up a bench, then bear in mind that you'll still need to support the front of the rifle with your hand in order to get any sort of groups.

Mtx

How does a .177 differ from a .17?
The .22 has more stopping power than the .17, so I think I'll go for that day

Mtx

How does a .177 differ from a .17?
The .22 has more stopping power than the .17, so I think I'll go for that

extremetaz

There is no .17 in air rifles - that designation is only used in cartridge rifles (17HMR, 17WSM, 17Hornet, etc...). There's only .177 in air rifle.

.22 is definitely the better choice for pest and vermin (and .25 is better again if you can manage to find ammo for it) - far more 'persuasion'; the .177 tends to overpenetrate and is really only effective in target shooting roles as it moves faster so there's less drop than the equivalent muzzle energy in the heavier rounds.

gunny123

extremetaz wrote: »

There is no .17 in air rifles - that designation is only used in cartridge rifles (17HMR, 17WSM, 17Hornet, etc...). There's only .177 in air rifle.

.22 is definitely the better choice for pest and vermin (and .25 is better again if you can manage to find ammo for it) - far more 'persuasion'; the .177 tends to overpenetrate and is really only effective in target shooting roles as it moves faster so there's less drop than the equivalent muzzle energy in the heavier rounds.

.20 good compromise ?

extremetaz

gunny123 wrote: »

.20 good compromise ?

If you're power limited, like in the UK where they're licence exempt up to 11ft.lbs or so, then it absolutely makes a good compromise yes.

Over here where you need a ticket regardless, you're better off just sending the bigger caliber out at the same speed as the smaller one given that the extra power required doesn't have any impact on licencing.

Mtx

What about ammo? Does anyone use different types of pellets?

recipio

Mtx wrote: »

What about ammo? Does anyone use different types of pellets?

Better to find a good dealer in this country and explain what you need. There is a lot to consider when buying a PCP and I'd suggest you stick with a quality secondhand gun like the Air Arms s410 which would be just within your budget.

extremetaz

Mtx wrote: »

What about ammo? Does anyone use different types of pellets?

There's plenty of brands and types out there, but the best performers tend to be good old round nosed diablo's from better brands.

JSB Exact, RWS, Daystate, Crossman Premier, there are others but those are the ones that come to mind right now.

extremetaz

extremetaz wrote: »

If you're power limited, like in the UK where they're licence exempt up to 11ft.lbs or so,

Just a correction to this post, I've been reliably informed that the licence free limit for rifles in the UK is 12ft.lbs.

Mtx

A license is needed for any power of airgun

gunny123

Mtx wrote: »

A license is needed for any power of airgun

Over one joule.

extremetaz

Mtx wrote: »

A license is needed for any power of airgun

gunny123 wrote: »

Over one joule.

In Ireland.

MTX: The post above references the UK on point of Gunny's question regarding the .20 being the best balance of the .17 & .22. Have read back through the thread.

HW100S

Mtx wrote: »

What about ammo? Does anyone use different types of pellets?

Your rifle will tell you which pellet to use. A quick youtube search will tell you which ones not to use based on the rifle you choose. Then have a play with the recommended ones to see which are best suited to your rifle.
Mine shoots Air Arms Field Diablo 15.9gr very very well at about 920fps giving 30fpe. Also JSB exact 15.9gr, which are the same pellet just in a different tin. I have also used Daystate soveirns with similar results. All have the diablo dome head shape and will knock down rabbits at 80m.
You may have to experiment between 5.51 & 5.52mm but I found that mine liked them both.
I haven't tried any other brands and there is no need.
I have read as a general rule that .177 is for feather and 22 is for fur.
I didn't consider .20 when getting my air rifle due to availability of ammo.
If you are shooting a 177 pellet at 1000fps you may experience pellet stability issues and may have to turn the fps down a bit to achieve the accuracy. This doesnt seem to be an issue with 22 pellets as they will only be travelling at 920fps while delivering 30fpe.
I would choose 22 for knock down power verses 177.

murph226

Interesting one that rule about the different calibers for fur and feather.

Does the .177 penetrate better?

I ask this because I have failed to take a couple of birds previously with my HW100 .22 but I'd say it was more down to shot placement.

HW100S

murph226 wrote: »

Interesting one that rule about the different calibers for fur and feather.

Does the .177 penetrate better?

I ask this because I have failed to take a couple of birds previously with my HW100 .22 but I'd say it was more down to shot placement.

This rule probably applies more to sub 12 ft pound air rifles where they are taking quarry with head shots. The flatter shooting of the 177 is more accurate at longer distances on a smaller target whereas the heavier pellet of the 22 has more knock down power on rabbits etc.

Not sure about the penetration but I have also experienced this especially on crows (who are hardy feckers). Unless the shot is placed precisely in the head or engine room they can keep going.

murph226

Thanks, they are tough, just shot placement so.

I got my HW fitted with a Tench regulator and bigger cylinder before Xmas, still have to test it out properly though.

Mississippi.

Not sure about the penetration but I have also experienced this especially on crows (who are hardy feckers). Unless the shot is placed precisely in the head or engine room they can keep going.[/quote]


Yeah, when the wings are folded up they are nearly bullet proof, certainly pellet proof.
Front of chest or else side of head.

Rafer

Hi Mtx are you still looking for an air rifle? I sent you a pm.
Rafer

extremetaz

murph226 wrote: »

Does the .177 penetrate better?

'Better' is subjective - it certainly penetrates 'more' at any given muzzle energy. This isn't necessarily a good thing though as overpenetration can result, meaning that you don't impart enough energy to the target to achieve a quick dispatch before the round is gone clean through and out the other side (more detail farther down on the type of issues that can cause).

murph226 wrote: »

I ask this because I have failed to take a couple of birds previously with my HW100 .22 but I'd say it was more down to shot placement.

Birds are a lot tougher than you'd think - shot placement is the key, but that means being very close in order to do the job consistently.

HW100S wrote: »

The flatter shooting of the 177 is more accurate at longer distances on a smaller target

This is a little generous - easier to place on account of less sensitivity to range, yes; more accurate, not so much.

HW100S wrote: »

whereas the heavier pellet of the 22 has more knock down power on rabbits etc.

Agreed - but there again, these points are only relevent in the context of a a muzzle energy limit which is not the case here in RoI. Here you can have a .22 which can produce every bit as flat a trajectory as any .177

HW100S wrote: »

Unless the shot is placed precisely in the head or engine room they can keep going.

The route taken to reach the engine room is the key here - I'll get to that shortly.

Mississippi wrote:

Front of chest or else side of head.

...and this is why I waited.

It is highly unlikely that you will achieve a clean kill with any common air rifle caliber by attempting to go through the chest and here's why.
Take a look at the skeleton shown here.

You see that breast plate?
That's behind the pectoral muscles - so it is drastically unlikely that you are going to have enough conviction in any conventional air rifle pellet to penetrate first the plumage, followed by the biggest musclegroup on the animal, followed by the strongest bone in the animal and then do the business where it counts.

What you're far more likely to do is have the pellet stop at the breatplate leaving the bird with a wound which won't necessarily prevent it from flying off, but will kill it but very slowly and perhaps even by way of infection rather than bleed-out depending on how much tissue damage is actually achieved.


..but what about that gap at the front above the breast plate?

With corvids, that can work - it brings the shot in through the crop though, which means it has to pass through two fairly tough stomach walls and everything in between which can range from very little at all, all the way through to meat and grit. So whilst it's possible, it wouldn't be a placement option I'd elect for personally. If it's pigeon you're shooting (under derogation of course) then I wouldn't even try as their crop is both larger, and more likely to be full of grain and grit, which make penetration unlikely; and even if you get through you'll have sod all energy left to finish the job.

So no - in the context of an air rifle, attempting to take them into the chest isn't the most appropriate approach.

The head will work, but there's the usual concerns about that target and the potential for a missed shot to damage the beak in such a fashion as to render the bird unable to feed makes it highly unappealing. I definitely would not attempt dispatch by headshot using .177. I stopped using the caliber for pest applications the day that I put a shot right through a rabbits head, just below the eyeball (about 6mm forward of intended placement) and watched the rabbit, without any hesitation, bound into cover. I only found it afterwards because I could hear it trying to breath through the blood that was filling its sinuses. Its vision seemed to be impaired by that point as well but it was a very long way from being dead or in any way humanely incapacitated. So there you have an abundantly clear example of overpenetration which, coupled with imperfect shot placement (and none of us gets it right every time), lead to an entirely unacceptable outcome.



SO TL;DR?
Basically your best air rifle shot placement option is into the neck itself - lower down will make for a more stable target but do try to avoid the crop.

There's also an option from above and behind, in between the shoulder blades ,which gives a very direct route to the boiler room with the additional benefit of bring your shot though the spinal column. Unusual angle to have though.

Or there from slightly behind and beneath, so that you're getting up behind the breastplate.

HW100S

extremetaz wrote: »

Birds are a lot tougher than you'd think - shot placement is the key, but that means being very close in order to do the job consistently.

What distance do you define as very close?
With a modern PCP air rifle @ 30fpe 60m should be no problem to achieve consistently.
Many of my shots are 70-80m with 105m being the furthest. All were instant kill shot.
Once the trajectory of the pellet is known (which comes with lots of practice and testing) there should be no major problems with accuracy.:)

extremetaz

I personally wouldn't attempt a shot at anything beyond 50m with a 22 air rifle - this is what I considered to be my effective range with the Weihrauch HW100 KT in 22 - YMMV. (I say 'my effective range' because the limits of both the rifle and the shooter are implicit in this)

That KT used to happily keep ~1.5" at 75m with no difficulty when on the range; but if I were to put a 2" target out at some unknown distance between 50 and 75 on open ground with a slight slope and shoot at that from an unfamiliar point in that landscape, I'd say the chances of hitting it first time would be near zero - in order to be able to achieve that consistently, I'd wouldn't be confident outside of 50m (and it'd be a doddle at 45m) - hence 'my effective range'.

That being said, I was never sure that rifle actually was fully dailed up - a lot of them came over at <12ft.lb and had the regulators reworked to bring them up to 25ft.lb, but I never chrono'd that one to see what it was actually producing so there's every possibility that it was well below that number; so I'm not attempting to dispute your comfort zone - merely making the point that it's a very individual thing, and often location specific as well. The important thing is to know what yours is.

The other thing worth considering though is that even at 30ft.lbs (which is a 16.8grn pill at 900fps), assuming a BC of 0.023, then you're looking at having ~17ft.lb left by the time you reach 50yards, and only ~10ft.lb by 100yards. I was once informed that it takes >7ft.lbs on arrival in order to cleanly dispatch a rabbit by headshot. Birds would probably require less than this, but going anywhere but the head would require a good deal more, and given the difficulty in asserting PoI at range for these slow projectiles, that's doesn't leave a lot of margin to work with IMO. So even if I could consistently hit a 1.5" plate at ~100yards first time, I'm still not sure I'd take the shot...

murph226

Thanks for the informative posts Taz, what pellets are you using in the HW100?

extremetaz

I used the JSB Exact range in any of mine - always found them to be a great performer.

HW100S

extremetaz wrote: »

I personally wouldn't attempt a shot at anything beyond 50m with a 22 air rifle - this is what I considered to be my effective range with the Weihrauch HW100 KT in 22 - YMMV. (I say 'my effective range' because the limits of both the rifle and the shooter are implicit in this)

That KT used to happily keep ~1.5" at 75m with no difficulty when on the range; but if I were to put a 2" target out at some unknown distance between 50 and 75 on open ground with a slight slope and shoot at that from an unfamiliar point in that landscape, I'd say the chances of hitting it first time would be near zero - in order to be able to achieve that consistently, I'd wouldn't be confident outside of 50m (and it'd be a doddle at 45m) - hence 'my effective range'.

That being said, I was never sure that rifle actually was fully dailed up - a lot of them came over at <12ft.lb and had the regulators reworked to bring them up to 25ft.lb, but I never chrono'd that one to see what it was actually producing so there's every possibility that it was well below that number; so I'm not attempting to dispute your comfort zone - merely making the point that it's a very individual thing, and often location specific as well. The important thing is to know what yours is.

The other thing worth considering though is that even at 30ft.lbs (which is a 16.8grn pill at 900fps), assuming a BC of 0.023, then you're looking at having ~17ft.lb left by the time you reach 50yards, and only ~10ft.lb by 100yards. I was once informed that it takes >7ft.lbs on arrival in order to cleanly dispatch a rabbit by headshot. Birds would probably require less than this, but going anywhere but the head would require a good deal more, and given the difficulty in asserting PoI at range for these slow projectiles, that's doesn't leave a lot of margin to work with IMO. So even if I could consistently hit a 1.5" plate at ~100yards first time, I'm still not sure I'd take the shot...

Fully appreciate your pov, each person makes their own mind up whether to take the shot or not based on distance, weather conditions, ability, elevation etc, etc. At the end of the day I think we all want to ensure the target is ethically disached.
I shoot an Air arms 510XL which puts out between 26 & 33fpe depending on pellet weight and where it is along the power curve (since its unregulated). The rifle is accurate way beyode my ability. At 50m pellets are in the same hole with not too much effort by me. At 75m the pellets are touching. Its a precision tool.
Modern PCP rifles are so accurate. This is why I feel so confident taking the longer shots knowing that the pellet will hit the same mark each time.
It takes a lot of trigger time and practice on paper targets to understand the trajectory of the pellet. Being able to accurately gauge the distance with the help of a good range finder is also vital.
I have shot the HW100 once - found it to be a little less accurate than the S510. Maybe with more practice I could improve my groups. Nice rifle tho......:)
Air rifles are so enjoyable to shoot imo. Accurate, quiet with almost zero disturbance and very cheap to run - what more could a hunter want!!