Discovery 1x10 – "Despite Yourself" [** SPOILERS **]

Evade

Goodshape wrote: »

It wouldn't make sense for one side of the holo-coms to see the entire bridge. Where would they be projecting that to? Is the one person on the other side standing in a holodeck or something?

Tilly saw the captain she was speaking to, and the captain saw Tilly.

I know but just to play devil's advocate they could scale it down. If they'd have kept classic viewscreens this whole mirror universe thing would be more interesting.

ezra_

Evade wrote: »

I know but just to play devil's advocate they could scale it down. If they'd have kept classic viewscreens this whole mirror universe thing would be more interesting.

But often with the viewscreens you only saw a close in of the person speaking, and not always the entire bridge, so the point still stands...

AtomicHorror

seamus wrote: »

My suspicion is also that the emperor will be someone we already know. The fight with Connor foreshadows a hard choice that Burnham is going to have to make - having to kill someone she already mourns.
So it might be Philippa Georgiou and they establish in canon that she is a descendant of Hoshi Sato.

But I think that would actually come across a bit "generic asian person". Hoshi is clearly of Japanese descent (though played by a Korean actress!), and Georgiou clearly of Chinese descent.

Yeah it's decidedly iffy and if the writers go that path I'd be rather disappointed in them. No issue with Georgiou being Emperor if she merely murdered her way there- it would explain the extreme reaction to the death of Mirror Burnham.

Evade

Is there any real evidence Captain Georgiou is supposed to be of Chinese heritage? Her accent is Malaysian but in a world where a very English accent belongs to a Frenchman anything goes.

AtomicHorror

Evade wrote: »

Is there any real evidence Captain Georgiou is supposed to be of Chinese heritage? Her accent is Malaysian but in a world where a very English accent belongs to a Frenchman anything goes.

No, her nationality is never mentioned. Her family name is Greek, so might be some heritage there, but for all we know she's not even from Earth.

Evade

AtomicHorror wrote: »

No, her nationality is never mentioned. Her family name is Greek, so might be some heritage there, but for all we know she's not even from Earth.

According to MA it was mentioned in the fourth episode she was born on Earth.

seamus

I was taking the "Chinese heritage" bit primarily from her look to be fair. The character has a heavy Malaysian accent, which places her origin in Malaysia at the very least.

I think it would be a bit of an insult for a character who is canonically Japanese ("Hoshi Sato" is basically like having an Irish character called "Murphy O'Reilly") to have a child who is visibly and audibly *not* of Japanese origin, even if canonically her origins are not stated.

Evade

seamus wrote: »

I was taking the "Chinese heritage" bit primarily from her look to be fair. The character has a heavy Malaysian accent, which places her origin in Malaysia at the very least.

I think it would be a bit of an insult for a character who is canonically Japanese ("Hoshi Sato" is basically like having an Irish character called "Murphy O'Reilly") to have a child who is visibly and audibly *not* of Japanese origin, even if canonically her origins are not stated.

Child might be a stretch, Hoshi is 73 years older than Georgiou.

Optimus Prime

Im hoping Hoshi turns up as the emperor! Might be a stretch but i think it would be a cool tie in.

pixelburp

I suppose the immediate question is: do we know if Michelle Yeoh was originally signed on for a certain number of episodes beyond the piot? A cameo as Empress of the Terran Empire would certainly dovetail into Burnham's personal arc; having had to kill a former crewmate (already dead by her actions anyway) was already quite an impact for her - having to confront your mentor, and possibly go up against her again, would only add to things.

Inviere

Evade wrote: »

I'm not sure what your point is here.

My point is, there's precedent for Klingons going undetected whilst disguised as Humans.

McCoy did one tricorder scan of Darvin which revealed he was a Klingon. Here multiple scans have been done of Tyler and it didn't come up.

Darvin was presumably only physically altered, on a surface level. Here, Voq seems to have had extensive work done, leaving large amounts of scarring on his internal organs. In essence, it sounds like he's had multiple organs removed/changed, bones cut & resized, and has had the memories of the REAL Tyler implanted over his own. They've done a complete rework on his physical, biological make-up. So while yes, you would think a simple scan would show him as a Klingon, I feel the point they've emphasized is they've done a LOT fo work to him, to ultimately successfully disguise him.

If he was a cardassian agent it would be believable but after that hamfisted klingon surgery not so much.

Speaking of, nobody on Voyager seemed to notice Seska was a Cardassian. You'd think transporting someone would give the gig up immediately, but nope.

On topic though, it'll be interesting to find out what happened to the Defiant. She'd be ~100 years old by now!

flazio

fxotoole wrote: »

Well Tilly didn’t see the Shenzou’s helm operator, so I’m assuming it only transmits one persons hologram.

I didn’t catch who the helm operator was and why they’d be in two places at once? Who are we talking about?

Lieutenant Keyla Detmer. A character who I think is very underwritten in the series so far. Here we have a character who served on the Shenzou with Burnham and Saru, suffered massive injuries to the head which required appearance altering surgery and yet apart from an awkward look between herself and Burnham when Michael first boarded the Discovery, nothing on how she is reacting to the lady guilty of starting the battle where she got her head scars.
Still though, looks like mirror Detmer is going to be second in command on the ISS Shenzou so maybe we're finally in for some character development.

Goodshape

I like that these "unimportant" characters are at least consistent. If they don't have much to do that's worth writing an episode about, then that's fine – no need to force it – but it's nice that Discovery feels like it's made up of people who have a job that they do, and not just this week's minimum-wage stand-in actor waiting to be relieved of duty by someone with a more expensive looking costume.

I do (as always) look forward to a 'Lower Decks' style episode though. Will be nice to flesh these characters out... but I don't consider it a failing that they haven't been yet. It's a plus that they're still there at all.

fxotoole

Optimus Prime wrote: »

Im hoping Hoshi turns up as the emperor! Might be a stretch but i think it would be a cool tie in.

Sure what age would her character be at this stage? I know in Star Trek, characters like McCoy can live to 140+ but still...

Evade

Inviere wrote: »

My point is, there's precedent for Klingons going undetected whilst disguised as Humans.

Yeah a civilian middle manager who could easily dodge a Doctor not a Starfleet officer who's routinely scanned for weird stuff.

Inviere wrote: »

Speaking of, nobody on Voyager seemed to notice Seska was a Cardassian. You'd think transporting someone would give the gig up immediately, but nope.

Seska was onboard a Starfleet ship for a few weeks before the first crew physical showed she was a Cardassian and they're very good at this. They tech away Cardassian genes and replace them with the target species genes and seemingly don't need to go at the patient with manual bonesaws.

Continuity aside, I don't buy a Starfleet doctor not figuring out the klingon surgery from what is shown in the flashbacks.

pixelburp

The show did establish that the Klingons hadn't been seen in a 100 years before the Binary Stars incident, they're not exactly a well understood race at this point, that allows a little leeway for one.

Besides, lieutenant Tyler exists, so after discounting mental conditioning (the aptly titled Manchurian Test), there'd be no precedent or presumption that such an extreme bodily alteration might have taken place. And it was extreme by its description, I doubt any computer could have accounted for that kind of thing.

Plus, must we still quote TOS as some bible of truth; it's the most porous of all continuities so why use it as a base?

Evade

pixelburp wrote: »

Plus, must we still quote TOS as some bible of truth; it's the most porous of all continuities so why use it as a base?

Probably directed at me and I don't. I take TOS in the broadest strokes possible but the later released series more concretely because they're more internally consistent with each other.

FutureGuy

Having watched all Mirror-related episodes with the wife over the last few evenings, Discovery's attempt is right up there. Mirror Mirror was lots of fun, and I think Despite Yourself is the best attempt to capture the fun of that episode. They are such scumbags

Interesting to see Capt. Foley on TrekYards saying it's right up there with the best Trek episodes, period.

CramCycle

I rewatched the Enterprise one. Good for two reasons, firstly, it wasn't a crossover episode, it was just an episode set in that universe, which was a good idea. The second, is that I thought Archer was worse than usual but then when you see in the second episode (which got slated compared to the first, although I thought it was just as good) that he is clearly a (fully functioning) paranoid schizophrenic, it makes more sense.

helimachoptor

I'm still a little confused with the Tyler thing. Did they cut him open and put voq inside ?

fritzelly

helimachoptor wrote: »

I'm still a little confused with the Tyler thing. Did they cut him open and put voq inside ?

Needed a laugh this morning

hal9550

helimachoptor wrote: »

I'm still a little confused with the Tyler thing. Did they cut him open and put voq inside ?

I think the idea is there was a tyler.. and they killed him after either draining his mind of memories.. or interogating him for months to get everything he knows.. personally the former makes sense

My reason for thinking this is

• Starfleet would obviously have checked to see if there was a Ltn Ash Tyler on the ship he claimed to be from
• There would have been red flags if he just 'appeared' with no history in files

CramCycle

I can't remember the docs exact descriptions but could they have taken tylers organs etc. to help fool sensors. Maybe there is a level of compatibility.

ezra_

helimachoptor wrote: »

I'm still a little confused with the Tyler thing. Did they cut him open and put voq inside ?

It has been done before;

seamus

I think the Voq/Tyler think is more that they surgically altered Voq to look like Tyler (hence crushed bones, scarred organs, etc) and then used some kind of process to "overlay" Tyler's memories into Voq.

The doctor mentions that they have done all sorts of "Manchurian" tests on him - tests designed to detect if he's been brainwashed or otherwise has a hostile foreign consciousness waiting to take over.

But if Tyler is the "foreign" consciousness, these tests won't pick it up.

Most likely the flashbacks that we're seeing are a result of the two consciousnesses "blending". The parts where he's having sex with L'rel are Voq's memories, the torture and cutting are Ash's memories. But Ash's personality assumes it was all him.

pixelburp

Yeah, the female Klingon (whose name escapes me) was a bit confused herself, acknowledging that something had gone wrong; so I suspect she underestimated the strength of Tylers consciousness, which is now mostly dominant, or at the very least merged with Voq. Would make sense a Klingon would presume a squishy human mind was no match for a Klingon warrior's own.

Notwithstanding the minutiae of how easily he was allowed into the Discovery crew or remained undetected, I've found Tyler a pretty interesting character: I think we all assumed there'd be some twist about him, presuming he was a spy or double-agent, but he has shown himself to be a decently charismatic presence in any case, and the whole subject of PTSD has been deftly handled too. It'll be intriguing to know where they go with him, and how much of Voq (or his agenda) will be allowed to surface. Obviously he'll have to account for killing the Doctor.

meep

pixelburp wrote: »

I wonder what a person not passingly knowledgeable of Star Trek made of all that; the Mirror Universe is a bit of a Trek tradition at this stage, and while Discovery is arguably the first since the Original Series to take it vaguely seriously, it's still a concept with a lot of canon baggage & distinctly melodramatic tone. I could imagine the casual viewer being a bit lost with all the chatter about the Defiant, and found the whole Terran Empire structure a bit silly compared with the overall tone of Discovery so far.

So I've watched Trek on a casual basis for 30 odd years (TNG was 'my' trek). Watched a lot of Voyager, no DS9 and some Enterprise. AT bit of ToS. No real recollection of of previous Mirror universe episodes. Big Sci-Fi fan. I guess I fit your specification?

Anyway, I enjoyed it a lot. Didn't have any prescience around the fate of the doctor. and doubt those claiming so. It made complete sense in retrospect but I didn't find it lazy in any way and think the handling of the emergence of the klingon/human character is working well. (I do have an ability to suspend disbelife and go with the overall story and not nitpick things to death)

However, even without nitpicking, the one thing that jarred withme were the Terrans (not recalling having encountered them previosuly)

I don't really understand how the humans have reached a point where they stand alone with hate for all other species yet have surmounted internal predjuices and racism to have multi-ethnic crews. That just doesn't add up.

Again though, I'm happy to suspend this and go with the flow. I'm hoping they explore alt-universe Discovery and how Cptn. Killy is getting on with the federation.

CramCycle

More interesting to see as well if Tyler does win out consciousnesses wise.

If the crew find out, and they will, even if he "becomes" Tyler, he is not really him, he will never be trusted. He himself will know he is not himself, what repercussions will this have on him psychologically. There are some options for some truly interesting and dark philosophical questions.

Bacchus

meep wrote: »

I'm hoping they explore alt-universe Discovery and how Cptn. Killy is getting on with the federation.

I hope that was intentional

CramCycle

Bacchus wrote: »

I hope that was intentional

nickname given in the episode, tilly calls it silly :pac:

I can't imagine though, the laughter and histerics if they met another federation ship, announces one of her titles, the other captain and crew would die laughing.

Greyjoy

pixelburp wrote: »

Notwithstanding the minutiae of how easily he was allowed into the Discovery crew or remained undetected, I've found Tyler a pretty interesting character: I think we all assumed there'd be some twist about him, presuming he was a spy or double-agent, but he has shown himself to be a decently charismatic presence in any case, and the whole subject of PTSD has been deftly handled too. It'll be intriguing to know where they go with him, and how much of Voq (or his agenda) will be allowed to surface. Obviously he'll have to account for killing the Doctor.

It feels like Tyler would have been a more interesting character without the twist of the Voq 'sleeper agent'. It would have allowed his character to develop more and struggle with PTSD. One way or another they'll have to resolve his storyline this season. If he remains undetected after killing the doctor it will just make the rest of the crew look like fools.

c.p.w.g.w

Is anyone else having trouble with netflix, the latest episode isn't showing on my list?

Evade

meep wrote: »

However, even without nitpicking, the one thing that jarred withme were the Terrans (not recalling having encountered them previosuly)

I don't really understand how the humans have reached a point where they stand alone with hate for all other species yet have surmounted internal predjuices and racism to have multi-ethnic crews. That just doesn't add up.

They short answer is they didn't get over it, they redirected it. Once first contact was made the were new more different people to pour that hate into. It's not that difficult to unite two or more disparate factions if they have a common enemy.

Something I've always wondered is are there Mirror Universe augments and is that kind of tampering outlawed in the Empire too?

redfacedbear

c.p.w.g.w wrote: »

Is anyone else having trouble with netflix, the latest episode isn't showing on my list?

I had trouble finding it because it's not available to download (only to stream) - so it wasn't where I would normally look for it.

seamus

meep wrote: »

I don't really understand how the humans have reached a point where they stand alone with hate for all other species yet have surmounted internal predjuices and racism to have multi-ethnic crews. That just doesn't add up.

Thinking about it too much is probably not advised. It was conceived in some of the earlier days of "quantum" sci-fi and no real thought given to expanding it, so there are far too many holes if you look closely.

Realistically if the entire history of the earth has been changed, space flight (in the Trek sense) is apparently inevitable, however none of the same people would exist. It would be a different universe, with different people rather than a different universe with the exact same people in opposite roles.

That said, you can paper over the cracks with multiverse theory - that every possible universe exists. So therefore a universe with the exact same people in "mirror" roles must exist.

But the further away from the mirror you stand, the better you look. So just avoid standing so close that you can see the pimples

fxotoole

I only vaguely remember the TOS Mirror episode with bearded Spock, but why is Spock even a member of the alt-universe Enterprise if Terrans hate Vulcans?

Johnny Storm

Greyjoy wrote: »

It feels like Tyler would have been a more interesting character without the twist of the Voq 'sleeper agent'. It would have allowed his character to develop more and struggle with PTSD. One way or another they'll have to resolve his storyline this season. If he remains undetected after killing the doctor it will just make the rest of the crew look like fools.

Possibly mirror-Tyler has not been converted into a Klingon?

fxotoole

Johnny Storm wrote: »

Possibly mirror-Tyler has not been converted into a Klingon?

Interesting. I hadn't considered that. The two will inevitably meet, and his his character will be redeemed by killing Voq-Tyler. Voq-Tyler being the bad guy, and Mirror-Tyler being the good guy.

pixelburp

It would be a nice change of pace if we meet some Mirror characters who aren't all awful souls; as said I'd be surprised if we don't meet Mirror Tyler, and I wonder if it's also a way to get the Dr. Culber back on the ship.

Heck, the Terran Empire seems very outwardly focused, but I'm presuming an institution as bad as that probably has some of its own internal oppressions; perhaps folks like Culber can't live freely, lost Stamets due to the Empire and stows away with Discovery when it returns to our universe.

strandroad

seamus wrote: »

Most likely the flashbacks that we're seeing are a result of the two consciousnesses "blending". The parts where he's having sex with L'rel are Voq's memories, the torture and cutting are Ash's memories. But Ash's personality assumes it was all him.

Why not both: she could have abused Tyler (he remembered it before Voq surfaced) and had a thing with Voq. She's the link between them anyway.

CramCycle wrote: »

More interesting to see as well if Tyler does win out consciousnesses wise.

If the crew find out, and they will, even if he "becomes" Tyler, he is not really him, he will never be trusted. He himself will know he is not himself, what repercussions will this have on him psychologically. There are some options for some truly interesting and dark philosophical questions.

He'll die either way. If Voq dominates, he'll be killed eventually. If Tyler dominates, he'll die in a sacrifice of sorts - it was weird enough to see Michael getting it on with the man who ate her captain once...

CramCycle

fxotoole wrote: »

Interesting. I hadn't considered that. The two will inevitably meet, and his his character will be redeemed by killing Voq-Tyler. Voq-Tyler being the bad guy, and Mirror-Tyler being the good guy.

But there is nothing suggesting all mirror people are bad versions, T'Pol seemed good. Mirror Tyler could be an asshole, security officer to the emperor or could be a good guy. It really depends on how much they want to keep the actor on I suppose but i imagine they won't and if they do, the mirror won't return to our universe.

jasonb

Quick question... If I'm right, the plan was for Michael to get on the Shenzhou, and use her access there to get info on the Defiant. Discovery was to stay close and they were to beam out as soon as they had what they need.

However, after she kills the current Captain of the Shenzhou, they then go to warp (what happened to 'staying close'?) which I'm guessing was on her command (she is now the Captain after all) and leaves the Discovery behind. And she somehow is unable to get the files she wants, as she never gets a min alone? And when she finally gets time alone in her quarters, she spends it with Tyler, not looking for the info on the Defiant.

So, what the hell happened to the plan?

CramCycle

jasonb wrote: »

So, what the hell happened to the plan?

Did they not go to Warp together?

jasonb

CramCycle wrote: »

Did they not go to Warp together?

Not that we see. I just re-watched it, she kills the guy (and where the hell was Tyler for that, as ‘every Captain has a personal guard’?), goes onto the bridge, they all clap, she sits down, says ‘All Hail The Empire’ and then they go to warp and the Discovery doesn’t.

It then cuts to what is meant to be the end of the day, and she’s just got back to her quarters, apparently never having any time to look for the Defiant files.

Of course, as far as the Shenzhou are concerned, there’s no reason for them to hang around, they’ve got Michael and Lorca back, so going to warp makes sense. So I guess we just assume that Discovery is following them from a distance or something? I can’t remember in this timeline, does ship to ship transport during warp exist or not?

farmerwifelet

Really dont like the michael character the most emotional vulcan ever. It is wrecking my head she is always angry or crying. Where is the ol vulcan stoicism. And lets shag while our captain is being tortured. Once the doc and hubby stammis started talking about how they were going to the opera together I knew one of them was toast.

Goodshape

farmerwifelet wrote: »

Really dont like the michael character the most emotional vulcan ever.

She's not Vulcan, she's a human who was raised in Vulcan.

farmerwifelet

Goodshape wrote: »

She's not Vulcan, she's a human who was raised in Vulcan.

Was she not half vulcan? Maybe I am wrong but I though they said one of her parents was vulcan? At least if she was human it would explain all the blubbing and anger issues.

strandroad

farmerwifelet wrote: »

Was she not half vulcan? Maybe I am wrong but I though they said one of her parents was vulcan? At least if she was human it would explain all the blubbing and anger issues.

No, she was adopted. It's Spock who was half Vulcan, she was raised by his parents.

farmerwifelet

Ah ok that is better I thought she was the crappest vulcan ever.

corkie

Mirror, Mirror: A Guide to Star Trek’s Twisted Mirror Universe




Tilly sure looked hot in this episode.


Re-watched Episodes S04E18 and S04E19 of ST: Enterprise to gain some context for the show.

Edit: -
Star Trek Continues in Episode 3, also did a good sequel to the original TOS mirror episode.