At wits ends with 2 year old.

ShaShaBear

My daughter turned two last month and for the past three weeks, night time has been an absolute NIGHTMARE. She is waking anywhere between 6 and 12 times through the night, and does the same thing every time - makes the same screeching, wailing fake-cry noise she uses during a tantrum. There are no tears. Originally I guessed she was coming down with something so I was sympathetic for about 5 nights and we gave Calpol and Nurofen. Then we took her to our GP just in case and she got the all clear there too.

Since then, we have introduced a night light and soft white noise, changed her night time diet, moved her bedtime around, tried daytime naps (boy did THAT go down well), walking in and giving assurance by touch and leaving, making the room warmer, making the room cooler, we even tried letting her "cry it out" (there are no tears and the second she spots you the laughter starts so she's not really crying).

She's getting on average between 5 and 8 hours sleep a night with no naps (despite all effort). This is playing havoc with her daytime mood and she is tantruming ten times as much as a result. My partner works two jobs, one of which is at night so it's me getting up with her as the only way to stop the screams is to take her out of bed (longest we've let her go is 45 minutes while I was in the bed where she could see me) as she is waking my older daughter and upsetting her.

Any ideas, experiences or reassurances? Some light at the end of the tunnel? I'm desperate!

Pawwed Rig

Would sleeping with her help?

ShaShaBear

Pawwed Rig wrote: »

Would sleeping with her help?

Nope. She is like my eldest, full-spirited aerobics if you try to put her in bed with you, which either leads to me getting up or her sliding off the bed and doing a runner!

shesty

I'd go in every ten mins and tell her it's time for sleep-and leave again.After an hour I would stretch it to every 15 mins.
The problem.with trying loads of different things is that you are confusing her in a way, and of course making it very interesting to see what will happen next!
It's bloody hell on you and your OH, but pick a friday night and resolve that you are going to just keep doing this for as long as it takes.Consistency is really key.
If you have to, sit on your landing or in your room to stay awake rather than getting back into bed(and yes, I do know the hell of that....).
Two years is a rotten age, the sleep goes to nothing.Mind you, I'd still push the naps myself, but I guess you know how it works for your child.My 21 mth old is starting the bedtime messing but she still naps during the day.And we had many nights like yours with our older one when she was two.Actually we did get a groclock for our older girl, it's not a magic wand but it helped as a tool when you go in in the middle of the night and can point at it and say look, it's still time for sleeping.Doesn't stop you havi to go in but still it helped us!!!!!

ShaShaBear

shesty wrote: »

I'd go in every ten mins and tell her it's time for sleep-and leave again.After an hour I would stretch it to every 15 mins.
The problem.with trying loads of different things is that you are confusing her in a way, and of course making it very interesting to see what will happen next!
It's bloody hell on you and your OH, but pick a friday night and resolve that you are going to just keep doing this for as long as it takes.Consistency is really key.
If you have to, sit on your landing or in your room to stay awake rather than getting back into bed(and yes, I do know the hell of that....).
Two years is a rotten age, the sleep goes to nothing.Mind you, I'd still push the naps myself, but I guess you know how it works for your child.My 21 mth old is starting the bedtime messing but she still naps during the day.And we had many nights like yours with our older one when she was two.Actually we did get a groclock for our older girl, it's not a magic wand but it helped as a tool when you go in in the middle of the night and can point at it and say look, it's still time for sleeping.Doesn't stop you havi to go in but still it helped us!!!!!

She gave up the daytime naps of her own accord when she was 16 months old and started sleeping for about 15 hours at night, same as my first did. We didn't push the matter, just let her find her own feet with sleeping. Never had any kind of trouble during bedtime with my eldest. She's 3.5 and sleeps through every night and transitioned to a bed in a blink!

With regard to what we're trying, it's not all random - we started with the little things as they seemed the most obvious - fear of the dark, cold weather setting in, perhaps heating up too high in room. The reassurance and leaving I have been doing solid for a fortnight now with literally no success. I cannot continue it indefinitely as we are in a tiny house and she's disrupting everyone's sleep, so I'm left with no other option but to lift her. 45 solid minutes of screaming at the top of her lungs and the split second she sees me, it all stops, not a tear in sight. If I walk out, she starts again and will literally not stop.
She's sleeping in our room, so it's impossible to avoid this once we all go to bed. It's only a tiny 2-bedroom house and the plan was to move her in with her sister after Christmas, but we need to get this in check first!

exaisle

Contact Lucy Wolfe. She's a sleep expert (and appears on various tv programmes from time to time). Friends of mine had an issue with their 18 month old and she was able to help.

Hope all works out for you soon.

ted1

Is she hungry?

What I did with ours was I used to lie down beside the cot and hold their hand to settle them. It was a bit of a nuisance but it worked

ShaShaBear

ted1 wrote: »

Is she hungry?

What I did with ours was I used to lie down beside the cot and hold their hand to settle them. It was a bit of a nuisance but it worked

I hope she's not! :pac:
She had two Weetabix, a sliced apple and a yoghurt for brekkie yesterday morning, a cheese sandwich for her morning snack, two bowls of homemade veg soup for lunch (because she's a sow :pac: ) and spuds, roast beef and brussel sprouts for dinner, as well as a small bowl of warm porridge before bed. That's pretty much a norm for her as far as diet goes, so I sincerely doubt it's hunger, or else she wouldn't improve so drastically once she's up! With all that food in her, and only having 7 hours sleep the night previous and no naps yesterday, she slept for 8 hours last night

NIMAN

Jez, she eats more than me!

I hope you get sorted asap. Sounds terrible.

ShaShaBear

NIMAN wrote: »

Jez, she eats more than me!

I hope you get sorted asap. Sounds terrible.

She's a beast. Very tall for her age, thin as a whippet and would mix well with a pack of feral wolves :pac: I've always found her wild streak endearing. But not before 6am, please :P

waterfaerie

ShaShaBear wrote: »

we even tried letting her "cry it out" (there are no tears and the second she spots you the laughter starts so she's not really crying).

ShaShaBear wrote: »

45 solid minutes of screaming at the top of her lungs and the split second she sees me, it all stops, not a tear in sight. If I walk out, she starts again and will literally not stop.

It sounds like she wants you? Just because there are no tears doesn't mean her feelings aren't real. The laughter starts because she's got what she wants - you.

She's only 2 so still a baby really. Just because she's learned how to manipulate you and throw tantrums doesn't mean her reasons aren't valid. She's obviously very unhappy at being left alone at night and she's doing the only thing she knows to let you know that. She's not doing it to annoy you or to deliberately disturb everyone's sleep. She's doing it to get your attention because she needs her mammy.

I know having the baby / child sleep with you isn't for everyone but maybe you could give it a go? Or maybe even just stay with her until she's fast asleep and then leave? Otherwise, I don't know what else to advise but maybe trying to understand where she's coming from and what she wants / needs will help you come up with something else that suits your family.

I know it must be really hard and I don't envy you. I hope you figure something out.

jlm29

I’d probably take her up out of bed, bring her to the living room, play with toys run her around the place and just generally wear her out. It’s a pain, but I find it less wearing than getting up out of bed fifteen million times and listening go shrieking.

GreeBo

Sorry OP to clarify, will she keep shrieking even if you are in the room?
Is it only picking her up that will stop her?

I was going to suggest that you just sit in the room with her but dont engage her (read a book) and she will hopefully tire herself out.

However if thats not an option/already tried, I would suggest not putting her to bed at the same time, wait until she is dropping with tiredness.

pwurple

I agree with wearing her out. I found there was a big spike in energy at age two, and sleep goes nuts if you don't run them around... I know it sounds like something dogs need, but we all need it! 
It's a right pain in winter as well, as the days are so short. At weekends I end up bringing them to those playzone places when it's bucketting rain, and in the evenings when I get some from work, I chuck on music for a disco dance. 
Bo on the Go on netflix is like an exercise video for toddlers as well. lol. 

Other than that, I have a chair in their room, I sit there and hold her hand until she is alseep, takes 7-10 minutes after story. No talking, just goes asleep. For us, it doesn't really matter who it is tbh, she accepts my husband, a babysitter, granny etc. Just someone. I know people would probably think I'm pandering to her, but feck it, I'm not spending hours going in and out and in and out. 10 minutes max, done. She's not going to be doing it when she is 10, it will pass.

MFlack2012

Definitely agree and was going to say it earlier. Sounds to me like she's not burning enough energy. Cut out all attempts at naps. Run her around as much as possible all day long. Assuming she's at home with you, after breakfast, bundle her up and get her outside right away. If it's raining, bundle her up in raingear and let her go. Ideally if you have an enclosed back yard, let her out with toys to run around. If not, take her to a playground or park. Walk her there and back. After lunch, go again. After dinner, go again. Outside, ideally. The fresh air will not only do both of you the world of good, but will hopefully tire her out too.

Before bedtime, talk to her, tell her sternly but kindly, that she cannot be screaming during the night, in the dark, if she needs you, she can call you and wait. If she screams, tell her that she is going to wake her sister and daddy too and they are very tired. If she does call you, go to her immediately. Ask her what the problem is. If she screams, tell her (whisper) 'no, shush, remember you'll wake daddy and sis'. Sit with her and ask what the problem is. Ask if she would like you to sit with her until she falls back to sleep. Sit with her but do not engage. If she starts to move about, reinforce it. It's night time, we have to be quiet, there's no shouting, we need to sleep.

Right now, she is testing the boundaries. She may not be able to tell you exactly what is wrong, but asking her and reinforcing the rules may help.

mitresize5

exaisle wrote: »

Contact Lucy Wolfe. She's a sleep expert (and appears on various tv programmes from time to time). Friends of mine had an issue with their 18 month old and she was able to help.

Hope all works out for you soon.

Id second that - best money I ever spent

ShaShaBear

Just to clarify guys, we tried her in sleeping with us and she hates it. Gets hyper and looks off the bed and does a runner, or will kick and jump until you let her out of the bed.

As for the screaming, sitting in the room isn't working - she sleeps in our bedroom and she can see us from her cot so this has nothing to do with her being left alone at night - the majority of the wakings, both myself and my husband are asleep in bed. She is bright as a button now after coming home from creche (she's there 9-2 three days a week) despite her lack of sleep.

Edited to add, it's not just me specifically she looks for either. About 30% of the time it's daddy she wants, but because he works two jobs, one at night, he's not always there and I find it unfair to wake him.

shesty

Do you think her sleep might be less disturbed if she was sleeping in another room?With her sister(is that rigjt?) Any chance you might be disturbing her at night, just moving in the bed and the like?And of course she will shout for you when she wakes up then, being the age she is :rolleyes:

ShaShaBear

shesty wrote: »

Do you think her sleep might be less disturbed if she was sleeping in another room?With her sister(is that rigjt?) Any chance you might be disturbing her at night, just moving in the bed and the like?And of course she will shout for you when she wakes up then, being the age she is :rolleyes:

Yes, we did consider the possibility! We've her big girl bed ordered and she will be moved in once it comes, but it just seemed to very much come out of nowhere!

GreeBo

Is she only waking when you are there or will she wake from sleep while you are downstairs for example?

patchyamac

Porrige Oats are like bananas,slow release of energy,I'd try cutting that for her routine right before bedtime.. That's my 2 cents

jimbobaloobob

Taking for toddlers book good book
Needs to be consistent whatever method you pick.

What's the sleep routine like as in the lead up to going to bed? Brushing teeth,story etc

ShaShaBear

jimbobaloobob wrote: »

Taking for toddlers book good book
Needs to be consistent whatever method you pick.

What's the sleep routine like as in the lead up to going to bed? Brushing teeth,story etc

Both the girls go to bed at the same time and we've an hour long routine involving bath, warm jammies from the dryer, warm drink, bedtime story and lights out. There are no issues getting her to sleep or putting her down.

And yes, GreeBo, she is waking whether we are in the room or not.

pwurple

Did you give the running around suggestions a go?

ShaShaBear

pwurple wrote: »

Did you give the running around suggestions a go?

She's in creche three days a week running around, and spends all day at home the other four playing outside with our dog or deep in imaginative play with her sister. We do fingerpainting with her and other arts to keep her mentally stimulated and I take her for a walk to the shop every day she's off without the buggy. I cannot physically make her do more, and at 3am, no matter how awake she seems, she is in no mood for frivolous activities, nor do I want my other daughter to decide she wants to get up at 3 every morning to play with her toys as well!

GreeBo

If she is waking on her own despite being tired out during the day, then is it possible that she is eating too much and just as too much energy?
Porridge before bed wouldnt strike me as a good idea, at worst its giving her energy at night, at worst the effort of digesting all that is waking her up.

How many calories is she eating per day?

shesty

This is probably not going to exactly solve your problem but based on my own pair (and my first is a total livewire), i would look at it this way....

Logically, she needs the sleep.Despite appearances during the day, her body is two, and is hardwired to need the sleep.So I suppose I would start from that point, that at 3am, despite being awake, her biological clock is wired for sleep.Not being downstairs playing or anything else to wear her out.

I don't think she waking because she needs anything or anything is wrong.I would guess that it's more developmental (which becomes habit).Maybe because she got sympathy the first five or so nights, her body just developed the habit of waking at that time (or a few times-and believe me, I have also made that mistake).As far as I know it takes about two days for them to form a habit and a good ten days to break it.

I think if you take her out, you will feed the habit.So the key message is that night time is for sleeping, in your own bed (since that's what she's used to) and that's that.Taking her out gives mixed messages.

Your biggest issue here I think may be that you are sharing the room making it tricky to address the waking.She can see you when she wakes up and sure of course she shouts at you....she's two, she wants you to do something!My pair are the same-well actually my 20month old roars 'mammy, daddy!' From her room the instant she's awake.It's what they do.

So the big challenge is actually to find a way to deal with it in the shared room situation I think.I am just comparing with my pair-in those situations, I go in every ten minutes and resettle them and tell them it's night time.In your situation I think the best you can do is get out of the bed every ten mins and resettle her....lie her down, and tell her firmly it's time for sleeping then get back into bed, lie down and resolutely stay there for ten mins no matter what.It is not ideal, I know, and I am sure the reaction will be big from her, but at the same.time, she is only two, it's the middle of the night, and she can only keep up that level of a reaction for so long.And you are in the room with her, right where you can be seen, so she's not alone.

It may be that she would sleep better in the other room, but at the same time you would probably be better to nip this habit in the bud before she moves-it sounds like she might be able to get out of her bed once she moves, which would add a whole new dimension to the problem!!!Like I said I don't think there is much wrong with her other than devekopmental phase, and possibly a bit of overtiredness at this stage too.

I know it's hell to do this and at 3am you are just not in a place to deal patiently with this sort of thing.But I think you probably need to really grit your teeth and be really consistent and non-reactive for a good few nights to try to stop it.You could get a sleep consultant-I think they may end up giving you similar advice but maybe you might have more guidance with it?You have my sympathy, the sleep battles are a nightmare.

ShaShaBear

GreeBo wrote: »

If she is waking on her own despite being tired out during the day, then is it possible that she is eating too much and just as too much energy?
Porridge before bed wouldnt strike me as a good idea, at worst its giving her energy at night, at worst the effort of digesting all that is waking her up.

How many calories is she eating per day?

Absolutely no clue, I don't calorie count for my toddlers!

I introduced porridge because she was starving half way through the night and I used to have to lift her at 11pm and feed her anyway.

ShaShaBear

shesty wrote: »

This is probably not going to exactly solve your problem but based on my own pair (and my first is a total livewire), i would look at it this way....

Logically, she needs the sleep.Despite appearances during the day, her body is two, and is hardwired to need the sleep.So I suppose I would start from that point, that at 3am, despite being awake, her biological clock is wired for sleep.Not being downstairs playing or anything else to wear her out.

I don't think she waking because she needs anything or anything is wrong.I would guess that it's more developmental (which becomes habit).Maybe because she got sympathy the first five or so nights, her body just developed the habit of waking at that time (or a few times-and believe me, I have also made that mistake).As far as I know it takes about two days for them to form a habit and a good ten days to break it.

I think if you take her out, you will feed the habit.So the key message is that night time is for sleeping, in your own bed (since that's what she's used to) and that's that.Taking her out gives mixed messages.

Your biggest issue here I think may be that you are sharing the room making it tricky to address the waking.She can see you when she wakes up and sure of course she shouts at you....she's two, she wants you to do something!My pair are the same-well actually my 20month old roars 'mammy, daddy!' From her room the instant she's awake.It's what they do.

So the big challenge is actually to find a way to deal with it in the shared room situation I think.I am just comparing with my pair-in those situations, I go in every ten minutes and resettle them and tell them it's night time.In your situation I think the best you can do is get out of the bed every ten mins and resettle her....lie her down, and tell her firmly it's time for sleeping then get back into bed, lie down and resolutely stay there for ten mins no matter what.It is not ideal, I know, and I am sure the reaction will be big from her, but at the same.time, she is only two, it's the middle of the night, and she can only keep up that level of a reaction for so long.And you are in the room with her, right where you can be seen, so she's not alone.

It may be that she would sleep better in the other room, but at the same time you would probably be better to nip this habit in the bud before she moves-it sounds like she might be able to get out of her bed once she moves, which would add a whole new dimension to the problem!!!Like I said I don't think there is much wrong with her other than devekopmental phase, and possibly a bit of overtiredness at this stage too.

I know it's hell to do this and at 3am you are just not in a place to deal patiently with this sort of thing.But I think you probably need to really grit your teeth and be really consistent and non-reactive for a good few nights to try to stop it.You could get a sleep consultant-I think they may end up giving you similar advice but maybe you might have more guidance with it?You have my sympathy, the sleep battles are a nightmare.

I agree with you on principle and in theory, but it simply is not possible to apply in my house unless I make my husband sleep on the couch after work or ask him to sleep in someone else's. And no matter how much of a habit I am making, it's simply not fair that my older daughter and husband would have to be subjected to another week of endless screaming. The house is barely bigger than an apartment and is an old build with terribly thin walls, and my older girls room is wall-to-wall with ours. I absolutely know she needs to sleep, which is the main reason I want to get to the bottom of this. It's affecting her during the day as a result of the lack of sleep. My only hope at this stage is to either sleep on the couch with her in a playpen, or that we somehow figure out what is forcing her awake so many times in the night!

GreeBo

ShaShaBear wrote: »

Absolutely no clue, I don't calorie count for my toddlers!

I introduced porridge because she was starving half way through the night and I used to have to lift her at 11pm and feed her anyway.

Might be an idea to do it once just to confirm its not way off, plenty of apps that will do all the hard work.
There is nothing negative about calorie counting, you are not trying to help them lose weight, just confirming that they are eating within the expected guidelines for their age group.

Could she possibly be thirsty rather than hungry?

Most people cant distinguish between those feelings unless you are dehydrated.

Put it this way, I'd have trouble staying asleep on a bowl of porridge!

ShaShaBear

GreeBo wrote: »

Might be an idea to do it once just to confirm its not way off, plenty of apps that will do all the hard work.
There is nothing negative about calorie counting, you are not trying to help them lose weight, just confirming that they are eating within the expected guidelines for their age group.

Could she possibly be thirsty rather than hungry?

Most people cant distinguish between those feelings unless you are dehydrated.

Put it this way, I'd have trouble staying asleep on a bowl of porridge!

She's been having porridge nightly for about 7 months though, it's not a new thing. I find it hard to believe that she is suddenly bursting with energy all of a sudden! I don't think I'd approve of calorie counting to ensure she is within a "range" either. Some kids need more, others need less. She eats when she is hungry and I make sure it's balanced and nutritious, but I wouldn't cut back food at this stage!

I'll contact Lucy Wolfe and hope for a breakthrough in the meantime