Kids. Yes or no ?

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Just a gentle debate to get going here,

I'm a bloke in my mid twenties and it's a question someone threw at me a couple of months ago

Do I want kids ?

After giving it some thought, weighing up the pros and cons etc in leaning towards 90% no kids, and I think that's the way I'd like to go.

Pros of not having: freedom to do more like to on holidays (go out in the evenings etc), get aways, go to peaceful places to relax in peace without noise, not having to worry about a little one, sleep without distraction, financial well being of not supporting another human for food, clothes, toys, crèche, school fees , college etc.

Cons: no child/ non want of child might put off some women in a relationship.

I sometimes get asked by people when am I going to have children and I ask why ? Normally the answer is because you have to !

I think that's just an outdated religious view in my opinion and think we don't have to do anything we don't want to.

So what are the opinions of AH ?


(I'd get a dog though...,..)

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

I'm a bloke in my mid twenties...

I sometimes get asked by people when am I going to have children...

:eek::eek:

I think "f**k off" is the answer to that question.

El Weirdo

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

After giving it some thought, weighing up the pros and cons etc in leaning towards 90% no kids, and I think that's the way I'd like to go.

Which 10% of the child would you prefer? A hand? A foot?

andekwarhola

I have kids now myself but the last thing me and friends were doing in our 20s was interminable navel gazing about probable kids down the line.

Sometimes not having the internet back then as much a boon as a hindrance

danganabu

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

J

Pros of not having: freedom to do more like to on holidays (go out in the evenings etc), get aways, go to peaceful places to relax in peace without noise, not having to worry about a little one, sleep without distraction, financial well being of not supporting another human for food, clothes, toys, crèche, school fees , college etc.

Cons: no child/ non want of child might put off some women in a relationship.

Well I mean if the non children thing is getting in your way of pulling them its quite clear that the cons massively out weigh the pros!

Fcuk it get two of them just in case :rolleyes:

Game Face MCGee

its your personal choice, but from my experience, all the sleepless nights, missed nights out and exotic holidays are far far far out weighted by the joy my children have given me in the last 3 years

Arghus

No.

frozenfrozen

I'm 22 I don't have kids and it's great. Guy from my secondary school class has a heap of children now already; nightmare fuel.

Hector Bellend

I hate kids.

Faack off kids

me_irl

storker

There's no one-size-fits-all answer to this. It's down to the individual and I would imagine most people already know what they want. However you can't just do a practical pros and cons list as if its a purchase. We're not talking about deciding to buy an SUV or switching from gas to oil.

I was ambivalent about having children and if my wife hadn't wanted them either then I would have been fine that, and would probably be quite happy about the decision today. However, she did want kids and we had them and while nothing can prepare you for the challenges and demands of parenting, particularly in the early years, another thing I wasn't prepared for was how much joy and and sheer entertainment they can give as you watch them figure out the crazy world they've been shoved into and as their personalities develop. So I'm very happy with how things have turned out, and now I wouldn't want to turn back the clock.

That said, someone else in the same situation might deeply regret having kids. I don't think this is something a poll can really enlighten you about.

LirW

Depends on the kind of person you are. Some people want kids, some don't. Also there are people that change their minds once they settle down, others are even more convinced it doesn't suit them. It's 2018, we have plenty of people on this planet, so it's not necessary to have kids and there is enough amazing stuff to do to keep yourself busy for a lifetime.

I have two, I'm quite young but definitely don't want more. I'm very happy with them because I enjoy being their mother. Yet you'll never meet me at mom-coffee mornings because they make me uncomfortable and I am very aware to keep myself up as an individual because they won't be around forever. My older one will be 20 before I hit my 40's, that in itself is pretty cool.

Owta Control

IVF for me, wanted a child and after 6 misfires in the HARI, the 7th attempt produced my daughter...she turned 10 at the weekend and I couldn't imagine my life without her
...
Now AH....do your thing

Boom_Bap

I had no plans for kids, I wanted to travel the world, live in different countries, explore music, have a life of freedom.

But I couldn't care about any of that now, kids rule. It's tough sometimes, but I wouldn't change a thing.

I'm getting on in years now to start a family. It's a funny old life. When I was in my twenties I wanted children definitely but then I had the luxury of time and could say "not right now but in a few years".

If life had turned out differently then yes I'd be a mother now and I carry some pain regarding that. The loss of a life I thought I'd have. Ridiculous really when we only get one shot and it doesn't do to go down the road of what ifs.

The other side of that is I absolutely love my independence. My life is my own and if I want to sleep all day or dance all night then I can do so. I'm sitting on the couch right now working and himself is in his office doing his bit. We'll head out soon to get a coffee and chat for hours just because we can. I like that. Little freedoms.

seamus

storker wrote: »

I don't think this is something a poll can really enlighten you about.

Actually, it really enlightens you about a specific truth - that whatever your decision, people are virtually always certain that it was the right choice for them and they are living a happy life.

A small subset will also be certain that the "other side" are fooling themselves and aren't as happy as they think they are. They see their mates and conclude that their mates are actually very unhappy beneath their facebook veneer and desperately want/regret children.

It's the even smaller subset of people who didn't get the choice, who do/don't have children despite their wishes, who are unhappy.

You don't have to justify it to anyone. The pros and cons list in the OP is naive and simplistic, based on memes and misconceptions about children and people's thoughts on them. If you want kids, then money, freedom and sleep are trivial concerns. If you don't want kids you don't have to come up with reasons why not.

The only advice I ever give to people who don't want children is - don't waste your youth. Don't spend 60 hours a week working a boring job to save money to buy a house so that you can retire at 55 to stare at four walls and go out for dinner 5 times a week and complain about sore knees and backs and "do you know who died".

If there's nobody depending on you, but you, then you can live in a tent at the side of the road, you can take risks, spend carelessly, pick yourself up and start all over again. You don't need to settle down or put down roots, you can go travel the world and experience all of the things that life and youth has to offer, rather than squirreling away your money and spending all your time making someone else wealthy.

If you don't have children, then you only need enough for yourself. Don't waste your time working towards some idea of being rich. You'll never get there.

thierry14

By the age of 30 all noteworthy things in your life have already been done

New experiences after 30 are a lot less common

Kids are a new experience

Society whether we like it or not judge people

A single childless man or women over 50 are seen as weird

A couple over 50 with no kids are seen as weird, cold and lonely, pityed upon in some cases if one of the couple is ill or dies

Its uncommon not to have kids

I don't think that, I know plenty that do

Same people never wanted kids, freedom forever and now that they have kids look down on those still hanging to youth

gstack166

The ‘I have kids & regret it’ option on the poll is absolutely disgusting. No doubt there is people who regretted having kids so early or maybe even so late, but if you regret having them at all, walk away. You don’t deserve them.

Thich Nhat Hanh

I have no kids and am pushing 40 but I'm single, so sometimes I have friends ask me if I'll ever have kids and I tell them that I haven't figured out a way of producing them on my own yet.
I see a lot of people find they give meaning to their life. I guess it's biologically imprinted into us to have kids, thus giving our lives meaning. I would like to think we've evolved beyond that to a certain extent. It must be nice to have a reason for your existence by having kids, but really all you're doing is passing the buck to your kids, who may ask themselves what on Earth they're doing here, suffer a series of existential crises, then have a child and it keeps going on and on...
My only regret is that my poor mother would love Grandkids, and it upsets me that I haven't given her any, but life didn't pan out that way, so what can I do...

Pac1Man

I had a 13 hour sleep the other week so I voted no for kids.

ianm1234

I noticed alot of old people that never had kids are very grumpy and depressed all the time, Maybe it becomes a regret after so long, I'm 24 and I wouldn't mind having kids, I have nieces and nephews so that makes you realise how great they are and just seeing them grow and develop is pretty amazing 😊 they make you forget about the problems in life because they're just so innocent 😊

irelandrover

the poll seems to miss and option for you want kids but dont have them yet.

Knex*

El Weirdo wrote: »

Which 10% of the child would you prefer? A hand? A foot?

Depends on the soup.

sbsquarepants

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

After giving it some thought, weighing up the pros and cons etc in leaning towards 90% no kids, and I think that's the way I'd like to go

Kids have a funny way a worming their way into your affections. I have 2 adult kids, when I started going out with my current missus about 10 or 11 years ago I was reasonably sure that I didn't want anymore, but she did - so we compromised and done what she wanted:D
Now I have more kids than a Romanian orphanage and I wouldn't change things for all the money or freedom to travel in the world.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Pros of not having: freedom to do more like to on holidays (go out in the evenings etc), get aways, go to peaceful places to relax in peace without noise, not having to worry about a little one, sleep without distraction, financial well being of not supporting another human for food, clothes, toys, crèche, school fees , college etc.

All true.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Cons: no child/ non want of child might put off some women in a relationship. ...,..)

Ha, I love this one!
Cons - the chicks might not like it:D

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

I think that's just an outdated religious view in my opinion and think we don't have to do anything we don't want to....,..)

I'm an atheist, I'm not so sure about the religious thing. It's more a primal urge, it's pretty much hardwired into every living organism. We're only really temporary DNA stores.

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

So what are the opinions of AH ?...,..)

Fúck AH - there's only one opinion that matters!



Mine - go churn out a few sprogs while you can still get it up!

Nobody is able to say they regret kids after having them, is the thing.

I don't have kids and it's fine. I'm not virulently against them but I'm not sorry to miss the expense, the hassle, the stress and the mess.

LirW

gstack166 wrote: »

The ‘I have kids & regret it’ option on the poll is absolutely disgusting. No doubt there is people who regretted having kids so early or maybe even so late, but if you regret having them at all, walk away. You don’t deserve them.

If you have kids and everything was easy, then that's good for you, you'll most likely connect that to a lot of joy. But sometimes the process of having children can be incredibly distressing, have a long-term impact on your health, cause relationships to fall apart with the person you absolutely love.

For some people life isn't all ponies and roses.

Or having a disabled child that needs 24-7 care without knowing before. A rare case but if it happens to you, you're f'd.

rainbow kirby

We wanted kids, we have one little boy (2 in March) and a second one due next month. I don't regret anything even though it's bloody hard at times!

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

fattymuatty

I have two and it is an absolute privilege to watch and have a hand in them growing up. They are beyond the baby stage now and we have great fun together, we all share the same sense of humour and laugh a lot together. They can fetch my charger for me when it's upstairs and bring me a cup of tea in bed at the weekends after a lie in. Of course there have been times that are more difficult than others and I'm sure we will face lots more challenges in the future but overall it has been a joy to parent them.

I will be in my early 40s when they hit their 20s and I love the fact that my husband and I have lots of adventures awaiting the two of us then as a couple instead of parents.

I used to think maybe we should have waited until we were older to have kids(although the first wasn't planned) but I am so happy with the way things have worked out for us all.

Shenshen

gstack166 wrote: »

The ‘I have kids & regret it’ option on the poll is absolutely disgusting. No doubt there is people who regretted having kids so early or maybe even so late, but if you regret having them at all, walk away. You don’t deserve them.

Society does frown upon abandoning children by the side of the road...

Sky King

Regret having them currently neck and neck in the poll with regret not having them...very simple solution there for both parties!!

Luxxis

Yes.

They are delicious.

Elemonator

Loads of men in their 20's run at that question and say they don't want kids, most change their minds.

Plopsu

LirW wrote: »

If you have kids and everything was easy, then that's good for you, you'll most likely connect that to a lot of joy. But sometimes the process of having children can be incredibly distressing, have a long-term impact on your health, cause relationships to fall apart with the person you absolutely love.

For some people life isn't all ponies and roses.

Or having a disabled child that needs 24-7 care without knowing before. A rare case but if it happens to you, you're f'd.

Yup, the relationship breakup rates for couple who have a child with a disability is huge.

LirW

Plopsu wrote: »

Yup, the relationship breakup rates for couple who have a child with a disability is huge.

And in a lot of cases it's the mother that gives up her job to care for the disabled child living from carer's allowance.

Malari

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Pros of not having: freedom to do more like to on holidays (go out in the evenings etc), get aways, go to peaceful places to relax in peace without noise, not having to worry about a little one, sleep without distraction, financial well being of not supporting another human for food, clothes, toys, crèche, school fees , college etc.

These are mostly my pros list of not having kids, but as other have pointed out, they are generally not considered cons for people who do have kids.

We sometimes say to each other "imagine if we had kids now, we couldn't do xyz!" But if we had wanted them our priorities would be different anyway.

seamus

fattymuatty wrote: »

They can fetch my charger for me when it's upstairs and bring me a cup of tea in bed at the weekends after a lie in. Of course there have been times that are more difficult than others and I'm sure we will face lots more challenges in the future but overall it has been a joy to parent them.

This is the thing. Once they can wipe their own arses, then the physically difficult bit has mostly gone away. They can entertain themselves, you can kick them out the front door to go play with their mates and if you want to go somewhere, you don't need bring a bag full of stuff with you.

Even nights out are easy, send the kids to bed and get a mate/sibling/parent to sit in your house watching TV and eating your food.

I'd never lie to anyone about it; the first 6-18 months can be a real chore. Proper, "WTF have I done to myself" territory. The first 6 in particular.

But after the first child you realise how short an amount of time that 6-18 months actually is. That's why people go a 2nd/3rd/4th time, because it's not actually that hard in retrospect and five years is not a long time.

CelticRambler

How many times have we had this question in the last three years? :pac:

Well, as it's still the same question, and still the same "reasons for not having" ...

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

freedom to do more like to on holidays (go out in the evenings etc), get aways, go to peaceful places to relax in peace without noise, not having to worry about a little one, sleep without distraction, financial well being of not supporting another human for food, clothes, toys, crèche, school fees , college etc.

... my contribution is the same: having five children under five never stopped me or my wife going on holidays, going out in the evening, getting away, or going to peaceful places to relax without noise - except (of course) having to deal with the noise made by idiot drunken adults, or the hassle caused by idiot adult teachers arguing that my six-year-old daughter was better off in school learning about the letter S rather than going to Italy and practising the Italian she'd been learning for three months. :mad: (Hassle more than compensated for by extreme smugness when a little Italian girl joined the class the next term, and my daughter was the only one in the school who could speak to her :P )

As for all the "expense" - well, most of that is optional. It sounds like a cliché, but it's true: my children (like my cats :pac: ) would always get more fun out of a cardboard box than any of the expensive plastic tat that their granny bought for them. :rolleyes:

And the less you worry about children, the better. They'll thank you for it later! :cool:

Whispered

I never wanted kids. I was absolutely anti ever having a child. I have a three year old and I'm so glad life didn't work out as I had planned. I don't think I'd regret not having kids if I hadn't, but now he's here and I know him, my life is much richer in totally different ways.

I'm currently listening to him play in his room singing "granny shark do do do do do". It's gas.

fattymuatty

seamus wrote: »

This is the thing. Once they can wipe their own arses, then the physically difficult bit has mostly gone away. They can entertain themselves, you can kick them out the front door to go play with their mates and if you want to go somewhere, you don't need bring a bag full of stuff with you.

Even nights out are easy, send the kids to bed and get a mate/sibling/parent to sit in your house watching TV and eating your food.

I'd never lie to anyone about it; the first 6-18 months can be a real chore. Proper, "WTF have I done to myself" territory. The first 6 in particular.

But after the first child you realise how short an amount of time that 6-18 months actually is. That's why people go a 2nd/3rd/4th time, because it's not actually that hard in retrospect and five years is not a long time.

For sure the early years fly by, it may be something to do with the sleep deprivation. I have two and we had them fairly close together so overall I think we spent about maybe 3 years of tough lack of sleep, nappy changes, feedings, needing to bring half the house when we left the house etc It was gone in the blink of an eye really.

Now it's come on we are going out and they get their shoes on and we go. Holidays, they like doing the same stuff we like doing, so we can head off exploring for the day and don't have to worry about the kids not being to walk all the way or needing snacks or nappy changes. If we want to have a lazy weekend the kids are all for chilling out and watching movies or whatever.

We are almost at the teen years now though and I am sure that will be interesting :pac:

jooksavage

Whispered wrote: »

I never wanted kids. I was absolutely anti ever having a child. I have a three year old and I'm so glad life didn't work out as I had planned. I don't think I'd regret not having kids if I hadn't, but now he's here and I know him, my life is much richer in totally different ways.

I'm currently listening to him play in his room singing "granny shark do do do do do". It's gas.

Same. Repulsed by other people's children. And adults who define themselves as parents first need a kick in the hole. I wasn't 100% sure how I'd feel about our baby til after she was born. For about 4 weeks after that I was just as uncertain. Now she's 6 months old and I can't imagine life without her. I think a lot of it comes down to your partner. I couldn't do it without her and she says she couldn't do it without me (she could - she's just being kind). We still have a lovely life together, just now more of it revolves around folding baby vests and changing nappies.

Jennifer Eccles

I've got three. All up and running, almost.
I love them and they've been the best - never a moments angst from them in terms of trouble ( drugs/violence/underage pregnancies etc).
Now at this stage they're not only my children, but my pals. They compliment my life, send me ideas, tell me whats out there in the current entertainments scene, introduce me to new books I might find interesting, share recipes and new knowledge. And they ask questions, look for advice, as do I. I can add to their knowledge and experience, and they drag me along in this ever more techno world, and make sure I'm not left behind, which I think is important as you get older.

However, let me say this.... my husband and I separated 8 years ago.
He believes that my needs and focus changed seismically from the first childbirth. Up to then, we lived for each other - but my "inability to prioritise our relationship in favour of our children", was ultimately the rock on which our ship perished, he felt.

He says he continued to regard me as his most important priority, with the kids next. And he expected the same in return.
Wasn't to be - he felt progressively more undervalued and less loved... to be honest, I noticed we were having much less time together, but my life was filled by stuff concerning my children, their education, their extra-curricular pursuits - dance lessons, sport etc.

And he gets it completely that this was not intentional on my part....we've discussed it at length and he described it as more an inevitable hormonal change that is so primordial - it ensures the survival of the next generation - nature ensuring its own continuance.

So, just a word of caution - things change in many respects upon the arrival of children, and it's a huge challenge to maintain the dynamic between the original two lovers who started the whole thing.

Would I do anything differently: I'd love NOT to be divorced, love to still have the full family unit around the dinner table, and if I were to go back 25 years, I'd write a letter to myself to keep in mind that I married my hubby for love of him, first, before we ever thought of having children.
Just being blatantly honest.

Jennifer Eccles

Whispered wrote: »

I never wanted kids. I was absolutely anti ever having a child. I have a three year old and I'm so glad life didn't work out as I had planned. I don't think I'd regret not having kids if I hadn't, but now he's here and I know him, my life is much richer in totally different ways.

I'm currently listening to him play in his room singing "granny shark do do do do do". It's gas.

Lovely post. "Rich" is the word!

Malari

@Jennifer Eccles, I feel like our relationship would have suffered too if we had kids. We are everything to each other, and I think kids would have strained that to breaking point. I think he would have let me take up a lot of slack and would have tried to prevent his life from changing as much as possible, and even though I would have wanted that too I would have got on with things. It's not a criticism of him at all, it's just a fact. We've spoken about it

Sky King

Having kids is risky, they could turn out to be complete dicks.

Then not only would you have wasted many precious years of your life that you could have been travelling or playing Xbox, the kicker is that you are only capable of raising a family of dicks, so you have failed at the one thing that you sacrificed so much for.

Why risk it?

Jennifer Eccles

Yep @Marari.
Awareness is there main thing. If you know what to watch out for, you can guard against it.
But I was all busy busy busy in the kidzone. Figured that taking best care of the kids was taking best care of my family = best care of my hubby. Not so. We never fought or anything - he just drifted away into other interests and one morning we were just too far apart to return....
But it needn't be so for everyone. There's 1000's of types of relationships out there. And many happy families who survive children, and are embellished by them.

It's just, nobody told me to watch out for the fact that my hormones changed how I looked at life. Hormones that weren't there before I became pregnant.

Whispered

I would imagine many many relationships suffer short term for having kids. Even if just for the fact that your personal and relationship needs have to take a back seat for a short while. Then throw in chronic fatigue and the fact your life is unrecognisable from only few short months previous. It's a shock to the system!
(That's not even considering the storm of hormonal crap that's going on for the first while).

Pat Mustard

Interesting article on children and their place within the family:

"Why your kids should not be the most important people in your family"

I went on to point out that many if not most of the problems they're having with their kids - typical stuff, these days - are the result of treating their children as if they, their marriage, and their family exist because of the kids when it is, in fact, the other way around. Their kids exist because of them and their marriage and thrive because they have created a stable family.

Furthermore, without them, their kids wouldn't eat well, have the nice clothing they wear, live in the nice home in which they live, enjoy the great vacations they enjoy, and so on. Instead of lives that are relatively carefree (despite the drama to the contrary that they occasionally manufacture), their children would be living lives full of worry and want.

This issue is really the heart of the matter. People my age know it's the heart of the matter because when we were kids it was clear to us that our parents were the most important people in our families. And that, right there, is why we respected our parents and that, right there, is why we looked up to adults in general. Yes, once upon a time, children were second-class citizens - to their advantage.

It was also clear to us - I speak, of course, in general terms, albeit accurate - that our parents' marriages were more important to them than their relationships with us.

Therefore, we did not sleep in their beds or interrupt their conversations. The family meal, at home, was regarded as more important than after-school activities. Mum and Dad talked more - a lot more - with one another than they talked with you. For lack of pedestals, we emancipated earlier and much more successfully than have children since.

The most important person in an army is the general. The most important person in a corporation is the CEO. The most important person in a classroom is the teacher. And the most important person in a family are the parents.

The most important thing about children is the need to prepare them properly for responsible citizenship. The primary objective should not be raising a straight-A student who excels at three sports, earns a spot on the Olympic swim team, goes to an A-list university and becomes a prominent brain surgeon. The primary objective is to raise a child such that community and culture are strengthened.

"Our child is the most important person in our family" is the first step toward raising a child who feels entitled.

You don't want that. Unbeknownst to your child, he doesn't need that.

John Rosemond is a family psychologist.

(This is not a dig at the poster Jennifer Eccles).

Jennifer Eccles

Pat Mustard wrote: »

Interesting article on children and their place within the family:

"Why your kids should not be the most important people in your family"

(This is not a dig at the poster Jennifer Eccles).

Great article. Would loved to have read that 15 years ago....

eviltimeban

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »

Pros of not having: freedom to do more like to on holidays (go out in the evenings etc), get aways, go to peaceful places to relax in peace without noise, not having to worry about a little one, sleep without distraction, financial well being of not supporting another human for food, clothes, toys, crèche, school fees , college etc.

All those things pretty much disappear after the first few years. Once you've got kids over the age 6 hump, you can do all those things. The older they get, the less of your day to day time they take up. Sure, there's school and college but that's also a finite issue.

seamus

Whispered wrote: »

I would imagine many many relationships suffer short term for having kids.

Indeed. I recall after our first was born thinking about how many times I'd heard on US TV shows and similar about people having children "to save our relationship". And all I could think about was how utterly fncked you would be trying to raise a baby in an already-strained relationship.

For several months you are two people coexisting in the same house, practically colleagues working on a shared project rather than lovers in a relationship.

Especially if one parent takes on 99% of the work and the other one sits back and goes off to earn money or whatever, I can see how the latter partner would feel like they're being ignored or neglected by the one doing the parenting.