Kids refusing to go to school

Kermit.de.frog

AllForIt wrote: »

IMO bullying should be a criminal offence. It is a huge problem in schools and in the workplace.

Burglaries are a fact of life but we don't just throw our hands up and say well this is real life, get used to it.

There is this attitude that bullying somehow makes a man out of you, hardens one up for life ahead. I couldn't disagree more with this sentiment.

Bullying is indeed a fact of life but it should never be allowed to continue - least of all in schools.

Of course. We'd all like it to stop.

But it won't and with social media it's worse and even more insidious than ever.

That's a fact. So now what?

Don't let your teenager leave the house?

Where does it end?

AllForIt

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

Of course. We'd all like it to stop.

But it won't and with social media it's worse and even more insidious than ever.

That's a fact. So now what?

Don't let your teenager leave the house?

Where does it end?

I wouldn't agree that 'we'd all' like it to stop. Rather I'd say there are some who absolutely don't want it to stop. Why would the bully want it to stop when they are gaining some advantage out of it. And you yourself seem to think that it serves as some kinds of life learning experience that is somehow essential.

I wouldn't dispute it's a fact of life but I would dispute that there is nothing that can be done about it.

As for your social media comment, and I've said this before on another thread, what happens on social media is merely a reflection of real life, it's not social media that is the root cause of these issues. In fact I think social media is useful in one respect because it exposes these issues that may otherwise remain hidden.

As for your 'don't let the teenager leave the house' comment , that doesn't make much logical sense to me. I'm suggesting that the bullying should be severally reprimanded in schools to the point of elimination as far as it can and made a criminal offence in the workplace in which case the weakling teenager you infer can leave the house because they then won't have to put up with the bullying at all.

Kermit.de.frog

AllForIt wrote: »

I wouldn't agree that 'we'd all' like it to stop. Rather I'd say there are some who absolutely don't want it to stop. Why would the bully what it to stop when they are gaining some advantage out of it. And you yourself seem to think that it serves as some kinds of life learning experience that is somehow essential.

I wouldn't dispute it's a fact of life but I would dispute that there is nothing that can be done about it.

As for your social media comment, and I've said this before on another thread, what happens on social media is merely a reflection of real life, it's not social media that is the root cause of these issues. In fact I think social media is useful in one respect because it exposes these issues that may otherwise remain hidden.

As for your 'don't let the teenager leave the house comment' , that doesn't make much logical sense to me. I'm suggesting that the bullying should be severally reprimanded in schools to the point of elimination as far as it can and made a criminal offence in the workplace in which case the weakling teenager you infer can leave the house because they then won't have to put up with the bullying at all.

You have misread my comments.

I said bullying is a fact never going away. Sure, it can be mitigated to some extent.

Don't conflate that with me saying it's ever acceptable for anyone to bully anyone else.

You are missing the point that a generation is being rared now to me totally unequipped to deal with the most basic realities.

Whether that is parental over protection or the fact they live their lives through their phones at home or a mixture of things, everything handed to them, we are creating serious problems.

That's just my opinion.

somefeen

Surely if a child is that bad about going to school there is some solution that's not as extreme as pulling them out completely or giving them a kick in the ass and telling them to get on with it.

I have every sympathy for a child who is being severely bullied, but pulling them from the school is the wrong solution. What kind of lesson does that teach a child? We can't stop the bad people so were just going to stay at home to our detriment?
That's just as bad if not worse than shrugging your shoulders and saying "bullying is a part of life"

beauf

I can see why many kids are bored at school.

There are good teachers, but there are still a lot of teacher who punch the clock. Trying to get feedback from them is like getting blood from a stone.

AllForIt

AllForIt wrote: »

IMO bullying should be a criminal offence. It is a huge problem in schools and in the workplace.

There is this attitude that bullying somehow makes a man out of you, hardens one up for life ahead. I couldn't disagree more with this sentiment.

Bullying is indeed a fact of life but it should never be allowed to continue - least of all in schools.

Your going to get shrill people crying to the police, someone was mean to me and cry bullying, it wouldn't work
I do think kids have to toughen up a bit by actually speaking out/reporting it instead of bottling it up

Coping strategies are needed, not putting them into echo chambers - where it can/will lead to the victims perceiving anyone who doesn't agree with them is a bully...by wrapping them in cotton wool, will have disastrous effects on them and when they hop in to the world of work, they will get a rude awakening when they come up with a person who is either difficult/pain to deal with

I suspect that the last number of years of parents treating kids as special/theyre the best,/give every one a medal/no losers in sports is having an effect on it

The Legend Of Kira

If youngsters drop outa school without a back up plan how will he/she cope in later life when it comes to getting employment etc ? some people mentioned homeschooling that,s one option other options could be try enrol in a different school with smaller class sizes or attend a youthreach centre & do exams there; lad I know dropped outa school at about aged 15 many years ago didn,t like school went to a youthreach centre & done his junior & leaving cert exams there; & went for a trade/apprenticeship post youthreach; it turned out in his case he found youthreach an alternative route then staying in secondary school.


On the subject of youngsters dealing with bullying; it could be a good idea to bring a youngster to kids boxing lessons when they reach a certain age to learn to defend himself/herself against potential bullying + learn to be more assertive to deal with any potential classroom bully .

The Legend Of Kira

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

If youngsters drop outa school without a back up plan how will he/she cope in later life when it comes to getting employment etc ? some people mentioned homeschooling that,s one option other options could be try enrol in a different school with smaller class sizes or attend a youthreach centre & do exams there; lad I know dropped outa school at about aged 15 many years ago didn,t like school went to a youthreach centre & done his junior & leaving cert exams there; & went for a trade/apprenticeship post youthreach; it turned out in his case he found youthreach an alternative route then staying in secondary school.


On the subject of youngsters dealing with bullying; it could be a good idea to bring a youngster to kids boxing lessons when they reach a certain age to learn to defend himself/herself against potential bullying + learn to be more assertive to deal with any potential classroom bully .

thank you, that was the word I was looking for, Children/Teens need to be more assertive/be more confident than rather than passive/meek - maybe a class for life skills in school might help

PARlance

Dr_serious2 wrote: »

Maybe your username would not be 'stuckforcash' if you had stayed in school? You could be called 'livingcomfortably.'

Would have never met 'cash4cars' if he stayed in School.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

_Roz_

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

and how will he survive the rest of his life without an education?

Home schooling until he's ready to go back.

Deleted User wrote: »

Jesus. When I hear people going on about kids, anxiety, therapists, the stress of school, you just wonder how they will get through life. Think social media and the whole "it's okay to not be okay" has really popularised anxiety. Lot to be said for the shoe up the arse and told to get out the door.

I think it's a bit of both to be honest. I don't think it should be completely ignored, but it shouldn't be pandered to either. The person should be encouraged to try to cope, not to just hide under their duvet.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

pgj2015 wrote: »

Or maybe they will have a job they love, why would anyone do a job they hate?

Because they need to pay the bills and can't get into an area of work they enjoy, perhaps because there's very few jobs available in that area.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

pgj2015 wrote: »

Then they have bigger problems than being anti social from not going to school. we should be telling kids they can do whatever they want career wise not that they may end up working in a job they hate.

We can tell them to strive to get into whatever career they want. But telling them they can get into any career they want is unrealistic. There are many people working at jobs that don't give them much satisfaction, because of various circumstances.

Shenshen

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

You have misread my comments.

I said bullying is a fact never going away. Sure, it can be mitigated to some extent.

Don't conflate that with me saying it's ever acceptable for anyone to bully anyone else.

You are missing the point that a generation is being rared now to me totally unequipped to deal with the most basic realities.

Whether that is parental over protection or the fact they live their lives through their phones at home or a mixture of things, everything handed to them, we are creating serious problems.

That's just my opinion.

Out of interest - when you were bullied at school, what ways did you find to deal with this basic reality? Did you confront your bullies, take it up with your parents, the teachers, your bully's parents?

Or did you do what I did, spent your days in school trying to hide away as much as possible, never spoke up in class for fear of drawing attention, develop depression and only finally got relief once you all left school for good?
I'm not sure about you, but that's a "life skill" I retrospectively feel I needn't have learned.

_Roz_

It's total bull to say bullying is a fact of life. I never bullied anyone, nor did any of my friends. We were all bullied at different times in our lives. Bullying is a choice children make, and it shouldn't be on their victims to do something about it.

c68zapdsm5i1ru

I think a bit of teasing and slagging is a fact of life, even a bit of ganging up now and then. But ongoing, cruel and systematic bullying is a totally different thing and any parent whose child is doing this to another child, and who is not addressing it, or is defending their son or daughter and denying that it's happening has hugely failed their child. As has any school who turns a blind eye to the problem.

_Roz_

I dunno about ganging up but yeah once it's not systematic as you say, it can be character building to experience a bit of teasing or slagging, builds up resilience. When I was bullied it was a group of about five girls all ganging up on me, whispering behind me in class or when I was trying to read out loud (for the teacher), pulling my hair, following me around when I tried to get away, insults etc etc. The usual. One girl in the group was nice though, and once she managed to let me know where they were all break time, so I could hide. Soon as the rest got back into class, they asked where I'd been all break. So they had spent it trying to find me. They had been my friends (to a degree, I was the odd one out always) for years, so it was incredibly isolating. Doesn't sound that bad, but it was combined with a poor home life and resulted in anxiety/depression that's with me to this day, as well as colouring my expectations of people. There's no excuse for that kind of thing happening.

AllForIt

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

You are missing the point that a generation is being rared now to me totally unequipped to deal with the most basic realities.

Maybe they are being rared to not accept bullying and more importantly not to be bullies themselves!

Albert Mealy Widow wrote: »

Your going to get shrill people crying to the police, someone was mean to me and cry bullying, it wouldn't work
I do think kids have to toughen up a bit by actually speaking out/reporting it instead of bottling it up

Coping strategies are needed, not putting them into echo chambers - where it can/will lead to the victims perceiving anyone who doesn't agree with them is a bully...by wrapping them in cotton wool, will have disastrous effects on them and when they hop in to the world of work, they will get a rude awakening when they come up with a person who is either difficult/pain to deal with

I suspect that the last number of years of parents treating kids as special/theyre the best,/give every one a medal/no losers in sports is having an effect on it

Shrill ppl? Mean to me? Well it all depends on what form that meanness takes. I have always thought there is very a fine line between banter and bullying and I'm absolutely certain there are some clever ppl who take advantage of that gray area.

The Legend Of Kira wrote: »

If youngsters drop outa school without a back up plan how will he/she cope in later life when it comes to getting employment etc ?

The ideal is that there is no bullying and thus they wouldn't feel the need to drop out of school.

On the subject of youngsters dealing with bullying; it could be a good idea to bring a youngster to kids boxing lessons when they reach a certain age to learn to defend himself/herself against potential bullying + learn to be more assertive to deal with any potential classroom bully .

Bullying is largely mental. I can't believe your seriously suggesting that taking up boxing classes would be in any way a solution to this problem. Are ya serious really?

B.A._Baracus

I never went to school when i was younger.
And me turned good alright end in the.

Potential-Monke

It's an old thread, and my reply probably won't be liked by most, but to also play the devils advocate here...

I'm not gonna try and get into how to handle kids in these situations. I don't have any, and situations like this was part of my reasoning for not wanting them (just couldn't be dealing with this). But, regardless of how it pans out, I honestly believe it is the parents problem and that's where the responsibility ends. Fair enough, the school can play a role in that, but for the vast majority of kids who attend secondary school, it's just school. It's something very few kids actually want to do, especially broody teenagers. But if there is proper mental health issues at play, it's up to the parents to sort out, with the school if applicable.

The last thing I want is for me (read: the taxpayer) to have to bear the financial brunt of resolving this. Call me selfish if you want, and I'll agree. But this should be no-ones problem except the parents. If there are issues at school which can be addressed, then yes, get the school involved. But if it's nothing to do with the school (ie: no bullying or something else caused by the school, or lack of their interaction), then it's no-one else's problem. It's up to the parents to resolve.

I was bullied, nearly every day in school, just for being small and ginger. Both features are still with me (5'6", very little hair and a big ginger beard) and the bullying has followed me everywhere, and is basically an accepted form of bullying (unwanted like a ginger kid, etc). I've grown to accept it, and look forward to new insults regarding being ginger (no one can come up with new ones). But during school, it caused me what is considered today as anxiety (I now have actual anxiety, it's a very different thing). And therein lies the problem imo. We're very quick to call anxiety when it could just be down in the dumps.

If i was a kid today, and the same happened, thanks to social media and the internet in general, I would 100% be looking to stay at home due to anxiety, and simply by using that word I'd imagine a lot of parents sh*t themselves, as they don't know how to deal with it. And kids these days are smarter at a younger age, what with the literal world of information at their fingertips, they can research and outsmart their parents. We used to do it too, drinking a glass of water pickled with salt in order to induce vomiting to get the day off school. Nowadays, those who want to can use words and scientific studies to 'prove' they're depressed, or anxious, etc more so than anyone else. I don't think it's rampant, but it's definitely happening and is probably only going to get worse. I would totally be able to fool my parents with some psycho mumbo jumbo and scare them into thinking there's something wrong with me, when all I want is a day off.

I'm not taking away from people, or teens/kids, having actual anxiety, I just think we're too quick to label a ****ty experience as anxiety. By giving it a label, you're giving it power, and that power is the kid/teen thinking that it's ok to feel like this, it's part of life and you should be protected from it. BS. Life is ****, and it's how you deal with it that counts imo. Am I pessimistic? Yup. It is ok to feel anxiety, to feel depressed every now and then, but it doesn't mean you have anxiety or depression, and this distinction needs to be made clearer.

_Brian

_Roz_ wrote: »

It's total bull to say bullying is a fact of life. I never bullied anyone, nor did any of my friends. We were all bullied at different times in our lives. Bullying is a choice children make, and it shouldn't be on their victims to do something about it.

In fairness it is a fact of life.

You won’t find many if any people who haven’t come across bullies during their life, many will be bullies at some stage.

BeerWolf

Guess I am lucky to have never been bullied.

beggars_bush

Resilience is a skill a lot of children need to learn and develop
Has to come from parents when they are younger, then peers as they get older

Sonics2k

My opinion on this has actually wavered a bit in the last while, namely in the last week.

My eldest is about to start her Christmas exams in 1st year of Secondary School and the insane amount of pressure she feels in insane. Both her mother and I have said the actual results mean nothing, and just to do her best and not stress.

However the teachers in the school appear to be saying and doing the exact opposite. Strongly implying there will be severe negative consequences for not excelling during her exams and not getting high marks. She's 13 and nearly had a panic attack because of these exams.

Then I think back to when I did my LC all those many years ago and it was the same. You needed minimum 500 points to succeed, you need to go to University and get a degree or you'll be poor and destitute. The amount of pressure these schools and teachers put on kids is absolute insanity.

LirW

Sonics2k wrote: »

My opinion on this has actually wavered a bit in the last while, namely in the last week.

My eldest is about to start her Christmas exams in 1st year of Secondary School and the insane amount of pressure she feels in insane. Both her mother and I have said the actual results mean nothing, and just to do her best and not stress.

However the teachers in the school appear to be saying and doing the exact opposite. Strongly implying there will be severe negative consequences for not excelling during her exams and not getting high marks. She's 13 and nearly had a panic attack because of these exams.

Then I think back to when I did my LC all those many years ago and it was the same. You needed minimum 500 points to succeed, you need to go to University and get a degree or you'll be poor and destitute. The amount of pressure these schools and teachers put on kids is absolute insanity.

The point race of the LC is a cutthroat competition where only the strongest survive and succeed. It's a guide to measure abilities that don't match with aptitudes required for certain courses. Kids that generally don't handle stress well are likely to fall off.
It's a ridiculous amount of pressure and while I understand there needs to be some sort of guideline on how to measure a student's progress, I don't see how it's a good thing that we accept a survival of the fittest-approach for our children.
When I think back of my time in school, I've never been as stressed as I was in my last year of school and I didn't cope too well with it. Never again did I feel this amount of pressure after finishing school.

wakka12

Deleted User wrote: »

Jesus. When I hear people going on about kids, anxiety, therapists, the stress of school, you just wonder how they will get through life. Think social media and the whole "it's okay to not be okay" has really popularised anxiety. Lot to be said for the shoe up the arse and told to get out the door.

I think theres a lot to be said for encouraging people to be honest about how they feel. How many more young men might still be alive in Ireland if it had been the case

Wanderer78

LirW wrote: »

The point race of the LC is a cutthroat competition where only the strongest survive and succeed. It's a guide to measure abilities that don't match with aptitudes required for certain courses. Kids that generally don't handle stress well are likely to fall off.
It's a ridiculous amount of pressure and while I understand there needs to be some sort of guideline on how to measure a student's progress, I don't see how it's a good thing that we accept a survival of the fittest-approach for our children.
When I think back of my time in school, I've never been as stressed as I was in my last year of school and I didn't cope too well with it. Never again did I feel this amount of pressure after finishing school.

is it really anything to do with the strongest! i think david mcwilliams is right here, our educational system makes a whole pile of people think theyre really intelligent, and another pile think theyre really stupid. rote learning only truly works and benefits a particular type of brain, if your preferred learning method(s) are not provided within our system, you ll probably find yourself in serious trouble very quickly, and our system wont respond to your needs

Sonics2k

LirW wrote: »

The point race of the LC is a cutthroat competition where only the strongest survive and succeed. It's a guide to measure abilities that don't match with aptitudes required for certain courses. Kids that generally don't handle stress well are likely to fall off.
It's a ridiculous amount of pressure and while I understand there needs to be some sort of guideline on how to measure a student's progress, I don't see how it's a good thing that we accept a survival of the fittest-approach for our children.
When I think back of my time in school, I've never been as stressed as I was in my last year of school and I didn't cope too well with it. Never again did I feel this amount of pressure after finishing school.

It's absolutely mental to me. Granted it was a over half my life ago since I did my LC, but I genuinely had no interest in it or going to Uni as I knew I wouldn't enjoy it. I did okay, certainly passed everything but no idea what my points were. I'm fairly sure I threw the slip in the bin straight after seeing it.

I still remember a load of my friends going to Uni and doing the bog standard Arts degree, and most of them dropped out before the end of the first year because they didn't enjoy it.

A fair few of them went back to Uni in their mid to late 20's and chose a degree they'd actually enjoy.

It's crazy just how much pressure is put on kids to get a huge score and go to Uni, when we as people will change in so many ways between the age of 17 and 30.

sosndt

This is one of those situations where both side extremists sound equally stupid to me.
The answer for everyone is not a kick up the whole.
The answer for everyone is not cotton wool.

Shock horror there is a middle ground people.. nuance.....

juneg

beggars_bush wrote: »

Resilience is a skill a lot of children need to learn and develop
Has to come from parents when they are younger, then peers as they get older

So true

Potential-Monke

Potential-Monke wrote: »

It's an old thread, and my reply probably won't be liked by most

Not too much in your post is that objectionable. A few people might misunderstand where you are drawing the line between the parents responsibility and the schools if they do not read it carefully - but otherwise most of it seems fine.

I would expound upon one thing you said though -

Potential-Monke wrote: »

I just think we're too quick to label a ****ty experience as anxiety. By giving it a label, you're giving it power, and that power is the kid/teen thinking that it's ok to feel like this

I think if a kid does not have a problem then you are probably quite right here. They can manufacture something with labels that is not actually an issue - and it gives them a power to influence their parents or the school and so on.

However where people _actually_ have problems the exact reverse is true. Sometimes with mental health one of the issues we suffer is from not having the words and the language to discuss it. And when you start to study mental health - suddenly getting the linguistic structures to understand what is wrong with you - can empower you in a way few outside those issues can imagine.

It is like the opposite of the novel 1984. In that novel the tyrannical government sought to control the populace by removing words from the language. The idea being that with less words they could formulate less concepts - and hence less likely to rebel or seek freedom. Without the words and concepts - they had no power.

When you suddenly get the words and concepts to start discussing your mental issues - either with others or even just internally with yourself - it can be an indescribable level of relief - and can go a hell of along way to mediating or even curing those issues.

beggars_bush

beggars_bush wrote: »

Resilience is a skill a lot of children need to learn and develop
Has to come from parents when they are younger, then peers as they get older

A lot of parents do not really have the tools to help there though. Amazingly what we learn in school rarely seems to map onto skills we actually need in life. And considering most of us - for much of our lives - will be parents it is weird for me that teaching people useful things from early to late schooling about being parents is rarely done. The things we do in life the most - often seem to be the things we learnt in school the least.

I was lucky myself in that I have skills that I was able to teach to my kids as issues arose for them. My daughter is 9 and is a very quite and shy person. Easily led or controlled if put into a panic. And of course this made her prime targets for bullies. Because the is exactly the kind of person a bully seeks because most bullies are - at the core - just pathetic sniveling cowards who build themselves up by knocking others down.

So one day a few years ago when she was dragged behind the sheds at school by other girls she went into a mad panic. Even though they did nothing to her there - it was the terror of not knowing what could or might happen back there - and the inability to stop it. She was in such a state the teachers had to call us to get her. Hyperventilating and shaking and totally pale. Full on shock. Of course the bullies loved it. The exact reaction they want.

Since then I have been teaching her jujitsu and it helped her immensely. A couple years later something similar happened. Some bullies tried to drag her back there again. And she just let it happen. She did not even use the jujitsu. It was enough for her to know she could - that the moment she needed to get out of the situation she was entirely in control of that. She remained entirely calm - and they got bored and have not bothered her since.

That is just one example. I have dealt with other issues by teaching her meditation. Others by teaching her how to fire rifles. And so on. But I realize I am lucky. I have tools and options here and I know how to use them. So far. Who knows what life might throw next.

Many parents don't. They are confronted with issues in their children and they simply do not know how to help. And there is often no handbook for parenting general enough to cover every topic. It is easy for us to _say_ it is the parents responsibility much of the time. But many parents simply are not equipped for it. And a solution to that is above my pay grade alas.

andekwarhola

There's a lot to be said for being honest about mental health and anxiety of course but allowing children to simply opt out of very important social milestones like that isn't the answer