IT Article - ‘Collapse’ in numbers applying for teacher-training courses

Noveight

Mardy Bum wrote: »

If the year was spent improving subject knowledge rather than making rubbish posters about group work it might be actually useful.

This x100. I've two hours on my timetable this week for CV preparation and another two for "policy reading and analysis". Absolute waffle of the highest order.

evolving_doors

TL17 wrote: »

Extra year has led to sort of shortage of teachers. And this sort of shortage is also result of new special needs model. next summer will be glut as usual.

There is no real shortage for meaningful work.
Plenty spailpin fanach work. day here and day there. But not REAL work. Many young teachers can't get long eough to do first part of dip.
So Relax.
There is no meaningful shortage

How do you figure that?

the_syco

The department, however, noted that the salary of a newly qualified teacher straight out of college in January 2018 will be €35,958.

“This is a very competitive graduate salary,” said the spokeswoman.

A very competitive graduate salary that no-one can get straight out of college, unless you have a blood relative that's a principal :pac:

What's the wage to be a sub? As opposed to a job that will pay the same wage without having to prepare for a class on your own time. If you get 22 hours, you get paid for the 22 hours, but how many more hours will you need to do to do the class properly, and how far down does the wage slip when you count those hours?

Anyway, I await a WaterfordWhispers news article on this that's closer to truth that only satire can actually be.

Sonny678

What are the subject in demand?. I know English Irish and Science subjects.
What about Geography and History are they in demand?.
And what about this new course in computer science next September. It is a new leaving cert subject. Will there be a problem finding computer science teachers. How many teachers would have computer science as a teaching council registered subject.

TL17

evolving_doors wrote:

How do you figure that?

Well there were extra positions because of new model in summer 17. But that a once off. New crop of graduates this summer and there wont be the same boost from sen. Think there were approx 900 new positions last summer.

joebloggs32

TL17 wrote: »

Well there were extra positions because of new model in summer 17. But that a once off. New crop of graduates this summer and there wont be the same boost from sen. Think there were approx 900 new positions last summer.

The additional deputy principals posts along with the reduction in teachers timetable from the JCT also pumped a lot of extra hours into new jobs.
On the other hand, a growing school population for the foreseeable future will result in more teaching posts being required.

r93kaey5p2izun

Changes to SEN provision, JCT and extra DPs don't explain the huge reduction in applicants to training courses or the complete inability to get a Home Ec/Irish/Maths/Chemistry/Physics/French/Spanish teacher for RPT contracts for a couple of years now.

bosco12345

As a person wanting to do pme next year i am seriously reconsidering my options. i hold an arts degree in the subjects business and geography. Would it be wise to do the pme in these subjects next year? Would I be employable?

dory

bosco12345 wrote: »

As a person wanting to do pme next year i am seriously reconsidering my options. i hold an arts degree in the subjects business and geography. Would it be wise to do the pme in these subjects next year? Would I be employable?

No one here can tell you for definite. It all depends on lots of things - luck, your results, how you interview, your references (they often ring your college tutor), some more luck, what you add to a school in terms of extra-curricular. It's definitely a tough career to start out in but if you really want it, go for it - but you might have to go abroad for a while to get experience/full time work.

Gaia Mother Earth

Sorry, I posted this a few pages back but I'm hearing of unqualifieds being brought in to teach when there are qualified teachers available! Really hope this is knocked on the head soon because I've heard locally this has happened in more than 1 school.

I also hope people don't get fast tracked into teaching like what happened in the past when courses were shortened and hastily trained teachers and then within 5 years, there was an absolute saturation of teachers on the job hunt.

I just hope the government get the right people into teaching and the right balance of numbers too.

mtoutlemonde

Gaia Mother Earth wrote: »

Sorry, I posted this a few pages back but I'm hearing of unqualifieds being brought in to teach when there are qualified teachers available! Really hope this is knocked on the head soon because I've heard locally this has happened in more than 1 school.

I also hope people don't get fast tracked into teaching like what happened in the past when courses were shortened and hastily trained teachers and then within 5 years, there was an absolute saturation of teachers on the job hunt.

I just hope the government get the right people into teaching and the right balance of numbers too.

I'm worried about this as well 'my son/daughter/nephew/niece/neighbour' has no work but has a degree sure they will be able to register under Further Education and be able to sub or even teach qualified. It is time that this was tightened up on - I thought it had been but now any Tom, Dick and Harry who has a degree sees the need for teachers as spouted by the Irish Times etc. and registers and gets subbing work over the qualified teachers who are sitting at home waiting for the phone to ring.

I think it is now time, where if you are registering under Further Education that you have to be delivering a course or undertaking studies in education.

amacca

Gaia Mother Earth wrote: »

I just hope the government get the right people into teaching and the right balance of numbers too.

They've not been doing a good job of that for years...why would they start now?

There were far too many graduates at one point because that was a nice little money spinner for the colleges and you would have to suspect that for the Govt side it suits as a lever to put pressure on teachers as there are plenty of them around so why not turn a blind eye etc

If you want to know what will happen follow the money or votes.......whichever one is threatened will take precedence..... except maybe in an election year.

mtoutlemonde

amacca wrote: »

They've not been doing a good job of that for years...why would they start now?

There were far too many graduates at one point because that was a nice little money spinner for the colleges and you would have to suspect that for the Govt side it suits as a lever to put pressure on teachers as there are plenty of them around so why not turn a blind eye etc

If you want to know what will happen follow the money or votes.......whichever one is threatened will take precedence..... except maybe in an election year.

So when the numbers dropped ... they made it a two year programme to screw the future teachers even more. Good thinking Teaching Council/Colleges/Government.

byhookorbycrook

The new special ed model has not caused the teacher shortage. Very few extra new full time posts were created.
As to unqualified teachers being used,has your qualified friend registered with text a sub and contacted local schools to say s/he is available?

Ray Donovan

mtoutlemonde wrote: »

I have said this for a while - we are getting more and more like the English system where the government have to give big bursaries to attract graduates into teaching. I can see the day when we have to have a stack of paperwork to do everyday before and after teaching.

From my experience of different schools and principals and the disrespect that is shown to applicants to jobs would be a major factor into staying away from teaching. The fact that you apply for a job and the principal does not have the decency to thank an applicant for applying and unfortunately they were unsuccessful. There will come a time when schools are biting the hands of applicants. The politics involved in getting work is also a major turn off.

The two year dip has had a major impact on applicants - who in there right mind would spend €12000 and two years hard slog to end up subbing for a few years or getting a CID for a small amount of hours where in reality, LPTs would be better off on the dole. I love the way the press give the €36000 starting salary - I wonder if a recent graduates were given a questionnaire, how many would be able to say that they were lucky enough to get 22 hours straight out of the dip - not many I would assume.

That's already the case in Primary Schools. It won't be long until it reaches second level.

mtoutlemonde

Ray Donovan wrote: »

That's already the case in Primary Schools. It won't be long until it reaches second level.

I wasn't aware of that. The good feeling / joy whatever you want to call it is disappearing steadily by more and more department bureaucracy. With this and a a drop in applicants - God help us in ten years or less! We won't be long losing our ranks in PISA and when it happens - it will be the teachers fault - surprise surprise.

salonfire

&#193 wrote: »

The reduced starting salary for teachers (introduced in 2012) exacerbates the problem. The current starting salary for a full-time teacher is about €35,000; the hourly rate for a part-time teacher is €43 an hour. Bearing in mind that the average wage in Ireland is now €45,000 for a full-time worker and €16,000 for a part-time worker, it is not surprising that teaching is no longer the attractive and highly sought after profession it once was.

Is this a joke?

She is comparing starting salary with an average salary, then moans about the remuneration not being enough.

Why not compare the max salary with the average (€67,538 + whatever allowances, etc). Doesn't look quite as bad now, does it.

The politicians do not do the hiring and firing in schools. The fractured nature of job offers is with the school system itself. Nothing to do with politicans or salaries paid to teachers.

If there is such a shortage, then surely full-time jobs will be easier to come by, no?

happywithlife

salonfire wrote: »

. The fractured nature of job offers is with the school system itself. Nothing to do with politicans or salaries paid to teachers.

If there is such a shortage, then surely full-time jobs will be easier to come by, no?

The breaking up of full time jobs into 2 p/t is being cultivated by those higher up in the chain imo and stems from the all the additional burdens placed on schools now without proper resources. No posts of responsibility for year head; SEN co coordinator TY coordinator etc means by splitting jobs you have more bodies on the ground who will scramble over each other to do these jobs for nothing in the hope of currying favour with the principal for more hours.
I hope that the adverts for 5/6 hours etc will disappear but can't see a return to a mass of fulltime jobs suddenly becoming available
're the income comments I'm only now after 15 yrs coming CLOSE to the average industrial wage - note not there yet
My sister has managed to walk into a similar paying job in the private sector as an account technician with NO qualifications. I must say it makes me rethink my job at times. Esp the days management are overrun and you've two students one telling you repeatedly to f off and the other threatening to break someone's neck

salonfire

happywithlife wrote: »

The breaking up of full time jobs into 2 p/t is being cultivated by those higher up in the chain imo and stems from the all the additional burdens placed on schools now without proper resources. No posts of responsibility for year head; SEN co coordinator TY coordinator etc means by splitting jobs you have more bodies on the ground who will scramble over each other to do these jobs for nothing in the hope of currying favour with the principal for more hours.
I hope that the adverts for 5/6 hours etc will disappear but can't see a return to a mass of fulltime jobs suddenly becoming available
're the income comments I'm only now after 15 yrs coming CLOSE to the average industrial wage - note not there yet
My sister has managed to walk into a similar paying job in the private sector as an account technician with NO qualifications. I must say it makes me rethink my job at times. Esp the days management are overrun and you've two students one telling you repeatedly to f off and the other threatening to break someone's neck

Your sister is extraordinarily lucky then to be paid so well as an account technician.

Experienced account technician range from € 28k-€35k in Dublin. Less than the starting salary of teaching.

http://www.accountingtechniciansireland.ie/Employers/Recruiting_Accounting_Technicians_/Salary_survey/Salary_survey.html

spurious

salonfire wrote:

Experienced account technician range from € 28k-€35k in Dublin. Less than the starting salary of teaching.

Presuming a full hours teaching job. The point is, there are very few. They are being split into two or three.

RealJohn

salonfire wrote: »

Experienced account technician range from € 28k-€35k in Dublin. Less than the starting salary of teaching.

What exactly is an account technician? Why do you feel that they’re equivalent to a teacher? The same link says that a newly qualified accountant can expect 35-45k. That would be a degree and then a postgrad/chartered accountant’s qualification, would it not? That would be more comparable I think and the teacher comes out worse (or equal to the accountant’s worst case scenario anyway).

salonfire

RealJohn wrote: »

What exactly is an account technician?

Not sure. Modern name for a book-keeper I guess.

RealJohn wrote: »

Why do you feel that they’re equivalent to a teacher?

I didn't. The poster I was replying to made reference to the account technician. I meant her sister was very lucky to get a salary, equivalent to a teacher, as a technician.

I wouldn't expect that an account technician would have the same salary potential as teachers (although I am surprised how low that salary actually is for an experienced individual.)

byhookorbycrook

For the secondary people, if you want to scare yourself, look at the new primary language curriculum.
http://www.curriculumonline.ie/Primary/Curriculum-Areas/Language/Progression-Continua-English-and-Irish/Oral-Language-Progression-Continuum
Bear in mind that each outcome breaks down into steps
http://www.curriculumonline.ie/Primary/Curriculum-Areas/Language/Progression-Continua/Oral-Language-L1/Progression-Steps?goto=3
and also that this applies to oral language, reading and writing and is repeated for Irish and English. The English failed primary system of death by paperwork is on the way- that's only two subjects and imagine that for 30 children.

happywithlife

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

For the secondary people, if you want to scare yourself, look at the new primary language curriculum.
http://www.curriculumonline.ie/Primary/Curriculum-Areas/Language/Progression-Continua-English-and-Irish/Oral-Language-Progression-Continuum
Bear in mind that each outcome breaks down into steps
http://www.curriculumonline.ie/Primary/Curriculum-Areas/Language/Progression-Continua/Oral-Language-L1/Progression-Steps?goto=3
and also that this applies to oral language, reading and writing and is repeated for Irish and English. The English failed primary system of death by paperwork is on the way- that's only two subjects and imagine that for 30 children.

Thanks for that. I confess I knew the paperwork was terrible but without knowing the detail
See my problem with that there straight away is teachers are meant to double job and if my understanding is right are in essence "screening " children for potential problems when really that is not their expertise and on paper the money has already been pumped into that at the various developmental checks with the phn
Why can't teachers be left to just get on with teaching?