Kia Niro EV

kuro68k

Yes, it seems it was a pre-production car.

Some other news from UK owners. Apparently you can switch between Imperial and metric units in the menus.

irishgrover

kuro68k wrote: »

Yes, it seems it was a pre-production car.

Some other news from UK owners. Apparently you can switch between Imperial and metric units in the menus.

this is my only gripe about my own imported car (ioniq)

Dagenham Dave

Had a look at one yesterday, really impressive car.

The 12 month waiting list has really put me off though - Kia will take my car now though as a deposit which is nice of them.

tk123

Dagenham Dave wrote: »

Had a look at one yesterday, really impressive car.

The 12 month waiting list has really put me off though - Kia will take my car now though as a deposit which is nice of them.

Like take it off you now... or next year? I'm still toying with the idea of getting one ... and the year wait would mean I'd have it for my birthday lol

Dagenham Dave

tk123 wrote: »

Like take it off you now... or next year? I'm still toying with the idea of getting one ... and the year wait would mean I'd have it for my birthday lol

They would take it now.
Might make getting around for the next 12 months a bit more challenging

tk123

Dagenham Dave wrote: »

They would take it now.
Might make getting around for the next 12 months a bit more challenging

That's what I was wondering lol!!

Also noticed my regular Niro and BEV soul and Niro are gone from the website

Old diesel

I'm just watching a UK EV youtuber reviewing an eNiro and he reckons the waiting list is 15 months over there.

Madness

Shefwedfan

Dagenham Dave wrote: »

Had a look at one yesterday, really impressive car.

The 12 month waiting list has really put me off though - Kia will take my car now though as a deposit which is nice of them.

Will they hold the value?

kuro68k

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Will they hold the value?

Dodgy dealers are selling them for more than they cost new now, because of the waiting lists. Same with the Kona.

Shefwedfan

kuro68k wrote: »

Dodgy dealers are selling them for more than they cost new now, because of the waiting lists. Same with the Kona.

I meant the car he/she is trading in

SleetAndSnow

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4OrOc_sXrU

Carwow review up now

Lumen

I ran some numbers last night and it seems like the economics of running an EV for high mileage motorway use are completely dependent on tariffs and taxes imposed by electricity companies and the government.

Fag-packet maths....Niro uses 20-25kWh/100km which is maybe €3.80/100km on day rate or €1.80/100km night rate, but night rate means more expensive day rate, so it's not that easy to reason about. Also, the charging efficiency might be only 85%, so the costs are more like €4.40 and €2.10 per 100km.

Diesel car might do 6L/100km at motorway speeds, or €8/100km, which looks like a no-brainer for EV, but only because of the massive fuel taxes. At agri diesel prices it's more like €4/100km, which is in the ballpark as daytime charging, so a large part of the difference is taxes and the rest is from demand smoothing which is not necessarily a permanent feature of the market.

So right now it's much cheaper to fuel an EV if done at night, but you are limited to one electricity supplier whose daytime rate is worse, and once home-charged EV use is placing more demands on the night-time grid I'd expect those night time rates to go up. But what are people going to be charged for electricity at fast chargers during the day?

Happy to be corrected on all this waffle.

ELM327

Agri diesel is not 50% the cost of derv, it's more like 70-75%.

It is significantly cheaper to run an EV on motorways once you have enough range. I did it.
€1.50-€2 at night to charge Ioniq to full, getting 160-200km. No diesel will come close to even double that cost.

Mike9832

ELM327 wrote: »

Agri diesel is not 50% the cost of derv, it's more like 70-75%.

It is significantly cheaper to run an EV on motorways once you have enough range. I did it.
€1.50-€2 at night to charge Ioniq to full, getting 160-200km. No diesel will come close to even double that cost.

It is but purchase price is a joke

Don't laugh but I was mighty impressed with a Kona rival

Was in a Dacia Duster 115bhp diesel few weeks ago

No joke I thought it was better car than the Kona, both are pretty crap inside, but Duster was so spacious and planted on the road, I can see why they are so popular

The most important part

115bhp Diesel Duster €17,000

€270pm pcp
€0 Deposit
€7500 gmfv

Kona 64kWh €39,000 ( from memory)

€6000pm
€8000 Deposit
€18,000 gmfv

Silent Running

Mike9832 wrote: »

It is but purchase price is a joke

Don't laugh but I was mighty impressed with a Kona rival

Was in a Dacia Duster 115bhp diesel few weeks ago

No joke I thought it was better car than the Kona, both are pretty crap inside, but Duster was so spacious and planted on the road, I can see why they are so popular

The most important part

115bhp Diesel Duster €17,000

€270pm pcp
€0 Deposit
€7500 gmfv

Kona 64kWh €39,000 ( from memory)

€6000pm
€8000 Deposit
€18,000 gmfv

€6,000 per month? Sure you'd be better just paying up front for the thing. :D

Lumen

ELM327 wrote: »

Agri diesel is not 50% the cost of derv, it's more like 70-75%.

It is significantly cheaper to run an EV on motorways once you have enough range. I did it.
€1.50-€2 at night to charge Ioniq to full, getting 160-200km. No diesel will come close to even double that cost.

Ah, I think my source was old, this from 2017.

https://www.ifarm.ie/input-costs/fuel-costs/

My point isn't just about the costs right now, it's about the large variable components of those costs which are subject to policy and profit decisions by electricity companies and the government.

I am not making a case against EVs.

ELM327

Lumen wrote: »

Ah, I think my source was old, this from 2017.

https://www.ifarm.ie/input-costs/fuel-costs/

My point isn't just about the costs right now, it's about the large variable components of those costs which are subject to policy and profit decisions by electricity companies and the government.

I am not making a case against EVs.

I'm driving a diesel right now so I'm not an EVangelist.


Charging an EV is done overnight, most of the time. This will remain cheap for years as, there is so much surplus generation at night, a lot of renewables get turned off, and the wholesale rate is negative. IE energy supply companies get paid to use electricity. This is the nature of the peaks and troughs of demand.


Taxation is a part of the cost delta, but even if notionally you exclude all taxes , the cost ex vat for a litre of diesel is approx 45 cents at the moment, vs ~6c for a kWh of electricity.


If you assume 5.75l/100km efficiency (50mpg) that costs you €2.58 in diesel to travel 100km. In an EV doing 16kWh/100km you pay €0.96


There are many arguments for diesel, but efficiency and cheapness of operating cost is not one of them compared to EV.

September1

Lumen wrote: »

I ran some numbers last night and it seems like the economics of running an EV for high mileage motorway use are completely dependent on tariffs and taxes imposed by electricity companies and the government.

I would even say that economics of most things are driven by prices of those things. In case of energy market there is a lot of costs added by regulation and taxation.

Lumen wrote: »

So right now it's much cheaper to fuel an EV if done at night, but you are limited to one electricity supplier whose daytime rate is worse, and once home-charged EV use is placing more demands on the night-time grid I'd expect those night time rates to go up. But what are people going to be charged for electricity at fast chargers during the day?

Night time rates are quite profitable already and increased demand could make adding capacity easier, which could as well cause electricity to become cheaper. There is no clear direction it would go.

Tombo2001

My mother has a Duster and I have to say I love it.

The whole car thing, and image - its laughable really. There are a huge amount of people who wouldnt get a Duster becauses its not the right brand, same as Skoda years ago.

fricatus

Lumen wrote: »

I ran some numbers last night and it seems like the economics of running an EV for high mileage motorway use are completely dependent on tariffs and taxes imposed by electricity companies and the government.

Fag-packet maths....Niro uses 20-25kWh/100km which is maybe €3.80/100km on day rate or €1.80/100km night rate, but night rate means more expensive day rate, so it's not that easy to reason about. Also, the charging efficiency might be only 85%, so the costs are more like €4.40 and €2.10 per 100km.

Diesel car might do 6L/100km at motorway speeds, or €8/100km, which looks like a no-brainer for EV, but only because of the massive fuel taxes. At agri diesel prices it's more like €4/100km, which is in the ballpark as daytime charging, so a large part of the difference is taxes and the rest is from demand smoothing which is not necessarily a permanent feature of the market.

So right now it's much cheaper to fuel an EV if done at night, but you are limited to one electricity supplier whose daytime rate is worse, and once home-charged EV use is placing more demands on the night-time grid I'd expect those night time rates to go up. But what are people going to be charged for electricity at fast chargers during the day?

Happy to be corrected on all this waffle.

Your calculations are quite sound, but I'm not sure of your reasoning around the diesel and electricity taxes. I think it can be clarified with a couple of questions:

- Will diesel taxes be lowered? (I think we all know the answer to this one)
- Will the cost of electricity go up?

I think the answer to the second question is "not significantly", though maybe the day/night rate distinction might disappear if EVs are producing as much demand at night as there is by day. More likely is some sort of variable/smart pricing model, with smart EV chargers pulling power intermittently based on the price for that minute (or 15-minute period, however they implement it).

I don't think the government can just double the cost of electricity though - washing machines and TVs would then cost twice as much to run - so then what will they do to replace lost revenue? I think the difference will be made up by a combination of road pricing (sophisticated variable tolling basically) plus offsetting the fines that are due to come in if we exceed our carbon emissions.

To answer your question about the cost of electricity at fast chargers, it seems that about 35c/kWh is likely as a ballpark figure, based on what is being charged elsewhere and what E-Cars have hinted at.

Mike9832

Tombo2001 wrote: »

My mother has a Duster and I have to say I love it.

The whole car thing, and image - its laughable really. There are a huge amount of people who wouldnt get a Duster becauses its not the right brand, same as Skoda years ago.

Exactly

I was one of them

For the price they are amazing

Lumen

fricatus wrote: »

To answer your question about the cost of electricity at fast chargers, it seems that about 35c/kWh is likely as a ballpark figure, based on what is being charged elsewhere and what E-Cars have hinted at.

That seems astonishingly expensive compared to domestic rates, and if EV motorway consumption is (say) 22.5kW/100km, puts "fuel" costs at almost €8/100km, which is at parity with diesel, but with none of the excess going back to the State.

If those costs are right I could start up a side business renting overnight parking outside my house.

rocky

Lumen wrote: »

That seems astonishingly expensive compared to domestic rates, and if EV motorway consumption is (say) 22.5kW/100km, puts "fuel" costs at almost €8/100km, which is at parity with diesel, but with none of the excess going back to the State.

If those costs are right I could start up a side business renting overnight parking outside my house.

Is your house on a motorway? No use otherwise.
The point is you use the fast chargers only as needed, not all the time.

Lumen

rocky wrote: »

Is your house on a motorway? No use otherwise.
The point is you use the fast chargers only as needed, not all the time.

I'd have thought the fast chargers would be the only practical option for anyone who doesn't have a home charging setup, no?

fricatus

Lumen wrote: »

That seems astonishingly expensive compared to domestic rates, and if EV motorway consumption is (say) 22.5kW/100km, puts "fuel" costs at almost €8/100km, which is at parity with diesel, but with none of the excess going back to the State.

If those costs are right I could start up a side business renting overnight parking outside my house.

The electricity at a fast charger is delivered at 10 times the speed it's delivered at home (give or take a fair bit). This necessitates expensive cabling and an expensive machine, and it's only really needed for people who are on the move and just stopping for a meal or a comfort break. Balancing those costs with the price that people in those circumstances are willing to pay gives you the sort of figure that people pay for rapid DC charging.

Lumen wrote: »

I'd have thought the fast chargers would be the only practical option for anyone who doesn't have a home charging setup, no?

Yes, if they absolutely must stay with their vehicle or nearby while it charges. There are other options available though, using slower A/C in the 3-6 kW range: charging at work, in shopping centres, in transport hubs, in hotels, at railway stations. All these options are patchy here, some may require payment, some may be free. To give you an idea of cost in a more developed EV market, I saw a row of A/C chargers operated by Fortum at a hotel in Norway and costing 2.50 NOK (25c) per kWh. That's getting down closer to daytime electricity costs in this country.

Black_Knight

Lumen wrote: »

I
Fag-packet maths....Niro uses 20-25kWh/100km which is maybe €3.80/100km on day rate or €1.80/100km night rate, but night rate means more expensive day rate, so it's not that easy to reason about. Also, the charging efficiency might be only 85%, so the costs are more like €4.40 and €2.10 per 100km.

Marginally.
Electric Ireland incl Vat
Standard price: 18.65c
Standing order (urban): €167.24

Day rate: 19.90c
Night rate: 9.83c
Standing order (urban): €226.98

More fag pack maths, but 10000km a year in an Ioniq averaging 200km a fill, in a 28kw battery is 1400kwh.
That's a saving or €120 a year if charged at night, but at a cost of ~€60 in an increased standing charge.
That's €60 a year, but lets try take into account the increased cost of your day rate... Assuming the average household usage of 4200kwh a year, and lets say 3/4 of that is in the daytime.
Daytime is going to cost you 40euro more (1.25c X 3150kwh), but the 1/4 you're still using at night time is going to be ~90euro less ((18.65c-9.83c)*1050kwh).

Even at that low milage, it seems a night rate meter is worth about €100 a year in savings to ya. I've ignored efficiencies of charging, but that only further plays into the advantage of getting a night rate meter.

ELM327

Mike9832 wrote: »

It is but purchase price is a joke

Don't laugh but I was mighty impressed with a Kona rival

Was in a Dacia Duster 115bhp diesel few weeks ago

No joke I thought it was better car than the Kona, both are pretty crap inside, but Duster was so spacious and planted on the road, I can see why they are so popular

The most important part

115bhp Diesel Duster €17,000

€270pm pcp
€0 Deposit
€7500 gmfv

Kona 64kWh €39,000 ( from memory)

€6000pm
€8000 Deposit
€18,000 gmfv

This is the issue, comparing apples with apples the new ICE with new EV, it still isnt cheaper.


A duster is a cheap and cheerful relaible ecobox, same as a kona.
If the kona is significantly more expensive to buy then it rules out the lower running costs.
€8k lump and €330 delta in monthlies will buy a lot of diesel for the duster!!


#anotheronedrivesaduster

ELM327

Black_Knight wrote: »

Marginally.
Electric Ireland incl Vat
Standard price: 18.65c
Standing order (urban): €167.24

Day rate: 19.90c
Night rate: 9.83c
Standing order (urban): €226.98

More fag pack maths, but 10000km a year in an Ioniq averaging 200km a fill, in a 28kw battery is 1400kwh.
That's a saving or €120 a year if charged at night, but at a cost of ~€60 in an increased standing charge.
That's €60 a year, but lets try take into account the increased cost of your day rate... Assuming the average household usage of 4200kwh a year, and lets say 3/4 of that is in the daytime.
Daytime is going to cost you 40euro more (1.25c X 3150kwh), but the 1/4 you're still using at night time is going to be ~90euro less ((18.65c-9.83c)*1050kwh).

Even at that low milage, it seems a night rate meter is worth about €100 a year in savings to ya. I've ignored efficiencies of charging, but that only further plays into the advantage of getting a night rate meter.

On the day/night vs 24hr rates, I just looked at my last bill and we are 2 night units used for every 1 day unit. And this is when we do not have an EV.


With an EV there is no reason not to have a night meter, I'm already saving €40a month on electricity (including standing charge) with a night meter. When i go back to EVs (looking at one tomorrow...) I expect this to rise to 3:1 or more.

unkel

ELM327 wrote: »

When i go back to EVs (looking at one tomorrow...)

I knew you wouldn't be long wanting back on the bandwagon

What you looking at?

Mickeroo

unkel wrote: »

I knew you wouldn't be long wanting back on the bandwagon

What you looking at?

Place bets now! My money is on an i3 Rex unless he's found a decent priced model S second hand....