Kia Niro EV

Silent Running

Silent Running wrote: »

Or they might not. I'm 1 year into ownership and I'm not particularly worried.

I understand that you want to talk up the value of your I3, but there's no need to throw shade at other EVs to achieve that.

I am seriously trying to get people to see that electrics depreciate heavily, (most of them ) and with a GFMV on a Kia e-Niro of 14K with 20K Kms a year, that is some severe depreciation if Kia or the finance company are predicting this kind of value in the car after 3 years. Fine if someone wants to keep the car years but anyone on a PCP should be worried.

Mike3287

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I am seriously trying to get people to see that electrics depreciate heavily, (most of them ) and with a GFMV on a Kia e-Niro of 14K with 20K Kms a year, that is some severe depreciation if Kia or the finance company are predicting this kind of value in the car after 3 years. Fine if someone wants to keep the car years but anyone on a PCP should be worried.

Your a good poster Mad_Lad, but fears are unwarranted here regarding eNiro

The combination of brilliant 7 year warranty, low availability, massive battery means eNiro aint going to depreciate much

Id be shocked if you could get a 3 year old one with 60km on the clock for less than 25k in 2022, nevermind 14k

I would say 40-50% depreciation from new is worst case, probably end up closer to 30%

Mike3287

Silent Running wrote: »

That sounds like a you problem.

Exactly

Busman Paddy Lasty

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I am seriously trying to get people to see that electrics depreciate heavily, (most of them ) and with a GFMV on a Kia e-Niro of 14K with 20K Kms a year, that is some severe depreciation if Kia or the finance company are predicting this kind of value in the car after 3 years. Fine if someone wants to keep the car years but anyone on a PCP should be worried.

Fair play to you but they are in demand so Kia can get the best deal for themselves first and foremost. I wouldn't base anything on PCP terms as it's a financial product that can be skewed in Kia's favour because of the demand.

I'd argue because of the car's size and reputation eNiro will hold it's value better than other EVs but only time will tell.

I've a MY19 and it's great. Very comfortable and great range. Depreciation wise, it may well be the next Ioniq 28* once the wider population looks for them in the second hand market.

*guaranteed to have a higher % depreciation than Ioniq but being very much sought after is the comparison here.

Mike3287

Mike3287 wrote: »

Your a good poster Mad_Lad, but fears are unwarranted here regarding eNiro

The combination of brilliant 7 year warranty, low availability, massive battery means eNiro aint going to depreciate much

Id be shocked if you could get a 3 year old one with 60km on the clock for less than 25k in 2022, nevermind 14k

I would say 40-50% depreciation from new is worst case, probably end up closer to 30%

It could hold it's value well, but this is a risk I'm not willing to take, not this time. The PCP deals on the 2015 Leaf weren't too bad considering the cost of the car, next time around PCP deals were a joke because of the higher than calculated depreciation so it's surprising to see Kia jump straight in with a very poor PCP deal and for only 40 K Kms per year, so either they are trying to discourage people from buying them due to supply issues or they are being cautious themselves and making sure the buyer takes most of the risk or both.

cluaindiuic

Given my mileage I'm thoroughly unsuited to PCP. I just went with a regular HP. At the moment I plan on driving the eNiro (once I get it) for at least 5 years. I've just come out of a similar deal on my Ioniq and the amount I got trade in was well ahead of the small amount left on the HP loan. I was much more concerned with the Ioniq tbh. 200km range is a big drawback and I feared the value would tank. It hasn't. 450km on this island is pretty much ideal.

cluaindiuic

cluaindiuic wrote: »

450km on this island is pretty much ideal.

In ideal conditions, at 120 Km/hr if it's any way like the e-soul then you'd manage 300 kms on the motorway or a bit more in good conditions, in Winter you might want to be plugged in by 280 Kms. Still, that's a lot better than your old Ioniq or my old Leaf or even my i3 Rex, ( on battery )

That would still get me from Carlow to Salt Hill without stopping and I wouldn't have motorway until Kilbeggan which is 84 Kms of 60-80-100 kms driving so it would leave me plenty of range.

I can just about get to the fast charger in Galway in the i3 on battery in Summer if I stick to no more than 100 Km/hr. But having the Rex I wouldn't bother restricting myself.

In fact, if you were to just stay in salthill and do no more driving it should be possible to get back to Ballinasloe for a fast charge, or find an AC point in Galway somewhere, 11 Kw AC is handy.

Silent Running

Deleted User wrote: »

In ideal conditions, at 120 Km/hr if it's any way like the e-soul then you'd manage 300 kms on the motorway or a bit more in good conditions, in Winter you might want to be plugged in by 280 Kms. Still, that's a lot better than your old Ioniq or my old Leaf or even my i3 Rex, ( on battery )

That would still get me from Carlow to Salt Hill without stopping and I wouldn't have motorway until Kilbeggan which is 84 Kms of 60-80-100 kms driving so it would leave me plenty of range.

I can just about get to the fast charger in Galway in the i3 on battery in Summer if I stick to no more than 100 Km/hr. But having the Rex I wouldn't bother restricting myself.

I'm sorry, but the bolded part is complete ballix.

My own experience in the last week of January this year: 40kms to the ferry, followed by 300kms of mostly motorway at 70mph, arriving at the charger in Membury Services on the UK M4 with 75 kms remaining.

The biggest problem with the Korean cars is the charge rate. The best I saw was 76kW, but only for a short time. The talk of an 800v battery charging at 270kW coming next year should be interesting.

championc

Silent Running wrote: »

The biggest problem with the Korean cars is the charge rate. The best I saw was 76kW, but only for a short time. The talk of an 800v battery charging at 270kW coming next year should be interesting.

I really don't get the urge for faster charging - at least not in this country. In the majority of cases, you'll charge at home, and get 400+km range, which will get you from A to B in the same day without any major issue. We know that an eNiro can fully fast charge in 1hr 15mins, which is only a coffee break.

Black_Knight

championc wrote: »

I really don't get the urge for faster charging - at least not in this country. In the majority of cases, you'll charge at home, and get 400+km range, which will get you from A to B in the same day without any major issue. We know that an eNiro can fully fast charge in 1hr 15mins, which is only a coffee break.

I was with you until you suggested 75 minutes is a coffee break. Does your boss know this?

championc

championc wrote: »

I really don't get the urge for faster charging - at least not in this country. In the majority of cases, you'll charge at home, and get 400+km range, which will get you from A to B in the same day without any major issue. We know that an eNiro can fully fast charge in 1hr 15mins, which is only a coffee break.

You don't get it ? because no one wants to wait too long to charge their car, most people will charge at home, true but it's when away from home you need the charging network the most and the faster the charging the better.

The faster the charging the faster the network is freed up for someone else or the less time someone has to wait if someone is already charging.

Fast charging ? can't be fast enough when you need it.

+ there's many People with no home charging, apartments, no driveway etc.

championc

I certainly hope I never (or hardly ever) have to use Fast Charging. I'm not convinced that it's good long term for batteries to be fast charging.

I'm really happy that our eNiro's have absolute tried and tested 400v Lithium-Ion units, rather than potentially experimental 800v or units composed of cheaper and less controversially mined substances, with a much lesser R&D background (although I'm not condoning the method used by some for mining Lithium)

championc

championc wrote: »

I certainly hope I never (or hardly ever) have to use Fast Charging. I'm not convinced that it's good long term for batteries to be fast charging.

I'm really happy that our eNiro's have absolute tried and tested 400v Lithium-Ion units, rather than potentially experimental 800v or units composed of cheaper and less controversially mined substances, with a much lesser R&D background (although I'm not condoning the method used by some for mining Lithium)

Fast charging for most People with home charging probably won't be that frequent so I wouldn't be worried about fast charging when needed.

800 volts won't matter, it's just different cell config to give 800 volts, there will probably be alterations to the chemistry as with most new batteries and even the e-niro might have several alterations to it's battery chemistry through it's life.

800 volts just means less current needed to give more Kw, whether this impacts C rates is another matter for acceleration but I doubt it, the Kv rating of the motor + reducer gear ratio will determine overall acceleration.

If I was to hazard a wild guess, "yes a guess" that much higher rpm motors won't need artificial noise making devices as they might produce a much louder whine, though this would be more down to the gearbox.

championc

My feeling is that EV's are currently expensive because they are being made with better quality components to ultimately convince the public to start moving towards EV's. Once the swing is very firmly underway, I think they'll start introducing the cheaper components.

Lumen

With 400V you're only limited to 200kW theoretical max with 500A Ionity chargers, in practice about 175kW at lower state of charge.

So 800V makes no sense for the eNiro because it's not limited by charge point current.

I'm not sure whether the Kia/Hyundai packs could cope with faster charging, maybe they are cooling limited or maybe those companies don't see any competitive advantage in going faster, given that they're not really competing with Audi, Porsche and Tesla.

I suspect that 40-something thousand is about the most the market will bear for these brands, so if they raised the charge rates they'd probably gain nothing and suffer brand damage of the packs start degrading in a few years.

When their competitors start offering 100+kW they can just dial it up on new models and please the upgraders.

Higher voltage means less current needs to be taken and put into the pack so for batteries with higher energy densities and lower power densities this would allow faster charging without the need for crazy high currents.

It also means less current is needed from the fast chargers reducing the need for more expensive power supplies to handle such currents and requiring liquid cooled cables.

Higher voltage means better efficiency.

Lumen

Deleted User wrote: »

Higher voltage means less current needs to be taken and put into the pack so for batteries with higher energy densities and lower power densities this would allow faster charging without the need for crazy high currents.

It makes no difference to the cells.

championc

If I understand correctly, Fast Charging = Heating up of the battery pack = Degrading capacity ?

KCross

Lumen wrote: »

It makes no difference to the cells.

Higher current means they are under more pressure and more heat. All bad for longevity.

800v halves the current. Its the main reason why 800v exists.

Lumen

KCross wrote: »

Higher current means they are under more pressure and more heat. All bad for longevity.

800v halves the current. Its the main reason why 800v exists.

Nope to all of that. The current through the cell matters, but 800V is the pack voltage and has nothing to do with cell voltage or current.

800v exists for other reasons, it's got nothing to do with the cells.

KCross

Lumen wrote: »

Nope to all of that. The current through the cell matters, but 800V is the pack voltage and has nothing to do with cell voltage or current.

pack voltage has nothing to do with cell current?

If you have a 400V pack charging at 70kW, what current is flowing through the cells?
If you now take an 800V pack charging at 70kW what current is flowing through the cells?

Lumen wrote: »

800v exists for other reasons, it's got nothing to do with the cells.

Im happy to be educated. Please explain.

Lumen

KCross wrote: »

voltage has nothing to do with current?

Im happy to be educated. Please explain.

The cell only sees the voltage across its terminals. In the case of a Tesla cell, for instance, that is around 4V (depending on stage of charge).

The cells are arranged in modules, and the modules into a pack. The pack voltage is around 400V (depending on state of charge). The cell doesn't "see" any of that.

If Tesla or Kia wanted to, they could increase the pack, drivetrain and associated gubbins to 800V (or any other voltage), and that would reduce the current through those high voltage components, and (importantly) through the charge point and cable, but it would have no direct effect on the cells themselves.

Electrical engineering is complicated, and I only studied physics to undergraduate level, but I'm fairly sure I'm on solid ground here.

KCross

Lumen wrote: »

The cell only sees the voltage across its terminals. In the case of a Tesla cell, for instance, that is around 4V (depending on stage of charge).

The cells are arranged in modules, and the modules into a pack. The pack voltage is around 400V (depending on state of charge). The cell doesn't "see" any of that.

Thats true of most packs, yes.

Lumen wrote: »

If Tesla or Kia wanted to, they could increase the pack, drivetrain and associated gubbins to 800V (or any other voltage), and that would reduce the current through those high voltage components, and (importantly) through the charge point and cable, but it would have no direct effect on the cells themselves.

If there is less current through the drivetrain components then surely there is less current through the battery pack... that current doesnt just disappear after the power electronics.


Two scenarios...

- 800V pack with 100kWh capacity receiving 200kW
- 400V pack with 100kWh capacity receiving 200kW

Are you saying that the cells in both packs are experiencing the same current? I dont think so. That extra current in the 400V pack has to go somewhere and it goes into the cells causing them to heat up more than the 800V pack becuase it will have half the current to achieve the same 200kW.

Lumen

KCross wrote: »

Two scenarios...

- 800V pack with 100kWh capacity receiving 200kW
- 400V pack with 100kWh capacity receiving 200kW

Are you saying that the cells in both packs are experiencing the same current?

Yes.

Johnboy1951

KCross wrote: »

Thats true of most packs, yes.




If there is less current through the drivetrain components then surely there is less current through the battery pack... that current doesnt just disappear after the power electronics.


Two scenarios...

- 800V pack with 100kWh capacity receiving 200kW
- 400V pack with 100kWh capacity receiving 200kW

Are you saying that the cells in both packs are experiencing the same current? I dont think so. That extra current in the 400V pack has to go somewhere and it goes into the cells causing them to heat up more than the 800V pack becuase it will have half the current to achieve the same 200kW.

Will not the number of cells have increased which accounts for it all?

KCross

Lumen wrote: »

Yes.

Its magic so!

tk123

chewed wrote: »

I contacted Kia Customer Service from their website earlier this week, asking when EV models would be available. This was their response....

"Thank you for contacting Kia Customer Care. Our sales team have informed us that we have stock of the E-Niro in all 5 colours. We recommend to contact your local Kia dealer and if there is any problem to let us know the dealer in question and we can assure them that stock is available."

Thank you so much for posting this!! Mailed dealer last week.. test drove this morning and ordered!:D:D:D. I had been planning on going for blue again but didn't like it when I saw it in real life so going for the grey that they have in stock. Test driving was weird because I have the hybrid so it wasn't like when I changed from a completely different make and model like last time..this time it was kind of the same... but not the same lol. There's a few niggly things about the hybrid's eco/normal mode that bug me but no probs on the e-niro.
Can't wait

Lumen

KCross wrote: »

Its magic so!

No, it's junior cert science.

I'll give you a grossly simplifed example.

Say each cell is 3Ah, nominal voltage of 4V.

You want 72kWh capacity, so you need 6,000 cells.

In a 400V pack you arrange them into 100 modules of 60 cells. The modules are wired in series, and within each module in parallel. So each module sees 4V, and each cell sees 4V. At 100kW charging speed, the pack is passing 250A, each module also 250A, but each cell gets 4.17A.

In an 800V pack of the same design (modules in series, cells in parallel) you arrange the same cells into 200 modules of 30 cells. The modules see 4V, the cells see 4V. At 100kW charging speed, the pack is passing 125A, each module also 125A, and each cell gets 4.17A.

If you can think of a way to redesign the pack such that each 4V cell sees half the current whilst charging at the same C rate, then you've just broken the laws of physics as I understand them.

Again, the benefits of higher pack voltages are not realised at the cell level.

Johnboy1951

Ah, I thought you were upping the kWh capacity as well as raising the voltage.
Silly me.