Government Expenditure - where is it all going?

andymann

It is common to see requests for increased 'investment in public services' across various government departments, closely followed by the word 'crisis'.
Is there ever a time where the health service is not in a 'crisis' state (I am relatively young so the word has lost all meaning in this context).
We are in the midst of a housing, a homeless, an education, an impending pensions 'crisis'.
Total government expenditure last year amounted to €58B. The total tax take for 2017, at €55.3B, was the largest in the history of the state.
We need to have large data sets made available. For example, tiers of organisational management in each government department, and semi-state company (i.e. principally taxpayer funded organisations, like RTÉ, etc.). We should see the amount of managers per department, number of people they are in charge of, criticality to running of front-line services (in the case of the health sector). Base salaries, pension contributions, etc. Anonymity should be preserved where possible. Undoubtedly we need to either spend the money currently allocated better, or increase it in a way which does not cause additional bloating of management structures and bureaucracy.
This appears to be a necessary undertaking in order to avoid mistakes of the past where, for example, health spending was increased year-on-year by a Fianna Fáil government from 2004-2009 from 8.9B to 14B, with key problems of overcrowding and staffing largely persisting.
There should be an end to the system by which the employment of public sector and semi-state employees cannot be terminated, so that well-performing employees can be suitably rewarded, and can earn promotions.
Defined benefit pension schemes should be removed from the public sector.
Opinions on the above are welcomed. Any ridiculous assertions, etc., I just really want to get a conversation started on this topic!

Your Face

http://www.whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/

Jim Bob Scratcher

Your Face wrote: »

http://www.whereyourmoneygoes.gov.ie/en/

I can see the first dole bashing thread of 2018 coming very soon

Jokes aside, brown envelope's and, lots off them, when referring to "other" :pac:

kyote00

900m per year on defence :eek:
1.8B per year on housing :eek: :eek:
7.5B per year on pensions :eek: :eek: :eek:

BillyBobBS

PS pensions and bank gambling debt repayments are the big ticket waste items imo but don't expect Varadkar to tackle them easier to have cheap shots at the tiny percentage cheating the dole.

Peregrinus

Not sure why you find the figures horrifying. What do you think are the right amounts to spend on defence, housing and pensions, and why?

robbiezero

BillyBobBS wrote: »

PS pensions and bank gambling debt repayments are the big ticket waste items imo but don't expect Varadkar to tackle them easier to have cheap shots at the tiny percentage cheating the dole.

how much are we spending on bank gambling debt repayments?

Wheeliebin30

BillyBobBS wrote: »

PS pensions and bank gambling debt repayments are the big ticket waste items imo but don't expect Varadkar to tackle them easier to have cheap shots at the tiny percentage cheating the dole.

Yawn.

Couldn't help yourself to try have a pop at varadkar in some way which is irrelevant to the discussion.

Richard Hillman

Spending is out of control. The role of government becoming far too big. The likes of social protection and health are only going to go one way with their being new media "causes" becoming sexy every few months.

Even foreign aid has been getting a bump over recent years. We're going full blown socialist. Not good.

SEPT 23 1989

Are we still spending 700m a year on overseas aid?

Peregrinus

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Spending is out of control. The role of government becoming far too big. The likes of social protection and health are only going to go one way with their being new media "causes" becoming sexy every few months.

Even foreign aid has been getting a bump over recent years. We're going full blown socialist. Not good.

How are things on Planet Right-Wing Fantasy, Richard? Here on Planet Earth, Irish government expenditure as a percentage of GDP has been declining year-on-year since 2010, and is now the lowest in the OECD. Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is debatable, but it's certainly not a "public-spending-is-out-of-control" thing.

Wanderer78

an interesting tweet!

Peter Donaldson
‏

@PDWriter
11h11 hours ago
More
Replying to @PDWriter @TIMGOLDFINCH and 38 others
Government spends more than it collects in tax so that we can use it in transactions and save some of it. Effectively, the deficit is the money supply. A government running a surplus over a long period would drain all its currency from the economy.

Peregrinus

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Are we still spending 700m a year on overseas aid?

No. This information is available at the link already provided by Your Face.

c_man

Sunshine doesn't pay for itself.

kneemos

andymann wrote: »

It is common to see requests for increased 'investment in public services' across various government departments, closely followed by the word 'crisis'.
Is there ever a time where the health service is not in a 'crisis' state (I am relatively young so the word has lost all meaning in this context).
We are in the midst of a housing, a homeless, an education, an impending pensions 'crisis'.
Total government expenditure last year amounted to €58B. The total tax take for 2017, at €55.3B, was the largest in the history of the state.
We need to have large data sets made available. For example, tiers of organisational management in each government department, and semi-state company (i.e. principally taxpayer funded organisations, like RTÉ, etc.). We should see the amount of managers per department, number of people they are in charge of, criticality to running of front-line services (in the case of the health sector). Base salaries, pension contributions, etc. Anonymity should be preserved where possible. Undoubtedly we need to either spend the money currently allocated better, or increase it in a way which does not cause additional bloating of management structures and bureaucracy.
This appears to be a necessary undertaking in order to avoid mistakes of the past where, for example, health spending was increased year-on-year by a Fianna Fáil government from 2004-2009 from 8.9B to 14B, with key problems of overcrowding and staffing largely persisting.
There should be an end to the system by which the employment of public sector and semi-state employees cannot be terminated, so that well-performing employees can be suitably rewarded, and can earn promotions.
Defined benefit pension schemes should be removed from the public sector.
Opinions on the above are welcomed. Any ridiculous assertions, etc., I just really want to get a conversation started on this topic!

The increase in health care is necessary due to an aging and increasing population. Though no doubt it could be streamlined
Everything else you mentioned is literally insignificant.

topper75

Wanderer78 wrote: »

an interesting tweet!

Peter Donaldson
‏

@PDWriter
11h11 hours ago
More
Replying to @PDWriter @TIMGOLDFINCH and 38 others
Government spends more than it collects in tax so that we can use it in transactions and save some of it. Effectively, the deficit is the money supply. A government running a surplus over a long period would drain all its currency from the economy.

Don't have to aim for a surplus though. Another alternative to successive deficits is 'balancing the books' (not to zero of course - it would be give or take).

How is that guy conflating fiscal policy with money supply (now controlled in Brussels anyway, not Dublin)?

Cina

Pensions are the real issue here, almost €8bn. Yikes. Especially with ever improving health services and increasing average life expectancy.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

TerrorFirmer

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Are we still spending 700m a year on overseas aid?

Leo said recently he wants to considerably increase our spending on overseas aid.

Chips Lovell

Which explains why people are clamouring to become teachers

Numbers applying for teacher-training courses have “collapsed” by more than 60 per cent over the past five years, new figures show.

The dramatic fall-off comes as concern mounts over the educational impact on students of teacher shortages in schools across key subjects.

Arthur Daley

Any reduction in govt. expenditure will be accompanied with the 'austerity' tagline. Austerity is overused and missused as much as crisis.

The Irish govt. spent like a drunk each year over the last 20 years, including the 2007-2015 'recession'. The opposition including sinn fein never thought they spent enough.

Meantime the national debt increased 4 fold from circa 50bn to 200bn. Only around one third of this increase circa 46bn related to the 'banks'. Two thirds (circa 100bn of debt) was for general govt over spending.

In EU terms Ireland is seen as a young growing population who need to be kept indebted and 'sweated' quite a bit more. This was the political agenda since at least 2000, 2008-2012 was a derailment, but we are back on track now almost like nothing happened.

LeinsterDub

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Spending is out of control. The role of government becoming far too big. The likes of social protection and health are only going to go one way with their being new media "causes" becoming sexy every few months.

Even foreign aid has been getting a bump over recent years. We're going full blown socialist. Not good.

We are so far from the Nordic model let alone full blown socialist. And what would you suggest the we allow the mega rich to continue getting richer as the middle classes have stagnated ?

LeinsterDub

Cina wrote: »

Pensions are the real issue here, almost €8bn. Yikes. Especially with ever improving health services and increasing average life expectancy.

People have paid for these pensions are you suggesting we don't honour that commitment?

Richard Hillman

Peregrinus wrote: »

How are things on Planet Right-Wing Fantasy, Richard? Here on Planet Earth, Irish government expenditure as a percentage of GDP has been declining year-on-year since 2010, and is now the lowest in the OECD. Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is debatable, but it's certainly not a "public-spending-is-out-of-control" thing.

Our GDP is unique and inaccurate of the true reflection due to the shell companies

Richard Hillman

LeinsterDub wrote: »

We are so far from the Nordic model let alone full blown socialist. And what would you suggest the we allow the mega rich to continue getting richer as the middle classes have stagnated ?

It's the middle classes that are paying for everything. Tightened to a level where wealth creation is near impossible, socialism.

LeinsterDub

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Any reduction in govt. expenditure will be accompanied with the 'austerity' tagline. Austerity is overused and missused as much as crisis.

The Irish govt. spent like a drunk each year over the last 20 years, including the 2007-2015 'recession'. The opposition including sinn fein never thought they spent enough.

Meantime the national debt increased 4 fold from circa 50bn to 200bn. Only around one third of this increase circa 46bn related to the 'banks'. Two thirds (circa 100bn of debt) was for general govt over spending.

In EU terms Ireland is seen as a young growing population who need to be kept indebted and 'sweated' quite a bit more. This was the political agenda since at least 2000, 2008-2012 was a derailment, but we are back on track now almost like nothing happened.

The national debt was one of the lowest in Europe before the crash in terms of GDP and actual amount.

In terms of debt measure by GDP we are some where in the middle
https://www.google.ie/publicdata/explore?ds=ds22a34krhq5p_&met_y=gd_pc_gdp&hl=en&dl=en#!ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=gd_pc_gdp&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=country_group&idim=country_group:eu&idim=country:at:be:bg:hr:cy:cz:dk:fi:fr:el:hu:ie:it:de:ee:uk:se:es:si:sk:ro:pt:pl:nl:mt:lu:lt:lv&ifdim=country_group&hl=en_US&dl=en&ind=false

Where would you suggest the Government can make cuts?

LeinsterDub

Richard Hillman wrote: »

It's the middle classes that are paying for everything. Tightened to a level where wealth creation is near impossible, socialism.

Its the super rich and companies hording Trillions of Euro which is making wealth creation near impossible

enricoh

Peregrinus wrote: »

How are things on Planet Right-Wing Fantasy, Richard? Here on Planet Earth, Irish government expenditure as a percentage of GDP has been declining year-on-year since 2010, and is now the lowest in the OECD. Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing is debatable, but it's certainly not a "public-spending-is-out-of-control" thing.

Ah, good aul gdp, so beloved of unions n quangos in Ireland when looking for more loot!
They never mention the leprechaun economics article that summed it up perfectly. Strangely enough!!

maryishere

Cina wrote: »

Pensions are the real issue here, almost €8bn. Yikes. Especially with ever improving health services and increasing average life expectancy.

Many public servants "earn" more when retired than the person on the average industrial wage does while working. A sobering thought.

Kivaro

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Are we still spending 700m a year on overseas aid?

In December, Varadkar pledged to beef up Ireland’s overseas aid to the developing world, promising to deliver a schedule of increases in Irish overseas aid this year.

€724 million was spend in overseas aid in 2016.

The NGOs in this country have been vocal in their demands to increase overseas aid. And no wonder; in 2016, a quarter of all aid went to NGOs based in Ireland. I presume an increase in NGO executive salaries is on the way too.

Arthur Daley

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Where would you suggest the Government can make cuts?

GDP is vastly inflated in Ireland it is not a credible measure here.

For cuts I would start with all expenditure used to ramp rents and property prices since 2010. Prices are high enough now, they should not need continous govt support.

RobbingBandit

Tribunals and other legal nonsensical investigations get a lot and the pensions there remember that's not just to old folks that's the clowns like Bifo, Bertie(still my hero ) and the others that ruined this country.

suicide_circus

A big problem is the amount of low income earners who pay no income tax and simultaneously foreign corporations who pay very little tax. Result? The squeezed middle. Social inequality? You're god damned right - too many net recepients, not enough net contributors.

The cost of pensions is only going up - everyone needs to put the shoulder to the wheel. We need to dismantle the entitlement culture to protect core services.

As for every aspect of the public service being in a constant state of crisis - you have a lot of people with their face in the trough or suckling the teat.

LeinsterDub

Arthur Daley wrote: »

GDP is vastly inflated in Ireland it is not a credible measure here.

For cuts I would start with all expenditure used to ramp rents and property prices since 2010. Prices are high enough now, they should not need continous govt support.

What measure would you suggest we use then?

How would this work? Are your suggesting making thousands homeless?

Peregrinus

Richard Hillman wrote: »

Our GDP is unique and inaccurate of the true reflection due to the shell companies

enricoh wrote: »

Ah, good aul gdp, so beloved of unions n quangos in Ireland when looking for more loot!
They never mention the leprechaun economics article that summed it up perfectly. Strangely enough!!

You're both missing the point. GDP in Ireland may be inflated by transfer pricing undertaken for tax avoidance reasons, but this has been so for a long time. What matters in this context is the trend; public expenditure has been steadily declining as a percentage of GDP. The significance of this is not altered by the fact that GDP is overstated. It contradicts Richards (evidence-free, we note) assertion that public expenditure is "out of control". It seems to be quite well controlled.

Peregrinus

Cina wrote: »

Pensions are the real issue here, almost €8bn. Yikes. Especially with ever improving health services and increasing average life expectancy.

What would the right figure be, so?

Arthur Daley

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What measure would you suggest we use then?

How would this work? Are your suggesting making thousands homeless?

Measure the state's income tax receipts versus it's debt. Same as your income multiple for a mortgage, would your credit provider be happy for you to keep increasing your debt continously when your income is relatively fixed?

How would reducing state support for high rents and property prices from 'crisis' levels lead to more people being homeless. This sounds alarmist and extreme. Will they demolish the properties or something.

Richard Hillman

Would love to see businesses starting to put the VAT take on transaction receipts in shops/fast food restaurants etc. The government will never enforce it because it doesn't look good on them but it will give the consumer a good note on how much tax we actually pay.

LeinsterDub

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Measure the state's income tax receipts versus it's debt. Same as your income multiple for a mortgage, would your credit provider be happy for you to keep increasing your debt continously when your income is relatively fixed?

How would reducing state support for high rents and property prices from 'crisis' levels lead to more people being homeless. This sounds alarmist and extreme. Will they demolish the properties or something.

The Government has collected €19.4 billion in tax for the first five months of 2017, slightly below the Department of Finance’s projected total of €19.6 billion, but up nearly 3 per cent or €550 million on last year.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/tax-revenue-undershoots-government-target-again-1.3105833

Tax revenues are 5.8% higher than at the same point last year - an increase of €2.6 billion.

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2017/1204/924893-government-tax-revenues-back-on-target-in-november/

Governments don't pay debts they inflate them away.

If you stop paying rent allowcance people will have to move out

Arthur Daley

LeinsterDub wrote: »

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/tax-revenue-undershoots-government-target-again-1.3105833

https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2017/1204/924893-government-tax-revenues-back-on-target-in-november/

Governments don't pay debts they inflate them away.

If you stop paying rent allowcance people will have to move out

I would look towards the longer term trend myself. Rather than just using the previous 12 months for a baseline.

It's awfully nice for the government to inflate away their problems. Is this while our wages are flat or near flat. Because some of us would take issue with negative real incomes amoung the working population.


Nobody said that you stop paying rent allowance. I suggest that Noonan propped up the rents and house prices in the period 2011 to date. That stimulus is no longer required and landlords could be weaned off supports.

Nermal

Peregrinus wrote: »

How are things on Planet Right-Wing Fantasy, Richard? Here on Planet Earth, Irish government expenditure as a percentage of GDP has been declining year-on-year since 2010

A convenient year to pick. What was the trend before the greatest financial crisis in nearly a century?

Spending had to decrease to avoid bankruptcy. It needs to decrease still further to reflect income.

BillyBobBS

Wheeliebin30 wrote: »

Yawn.

Couldn't help yourself to try have a pop at varadkar in some way which is irrelevant to the discussion.

It's not irrelevant. Varadkar is the CEO of Ireland, the buck stops with him and he is failing on every level.

Yawn

LeinsterDub

Arthur Daley wrote: »

I would look towards the longer term trend myself. Rather than just using the previous 12 months for a baseline.

It's awfully nice for the government to inflate away their problems. Is this while our wages are flat or near flat. Because some of us would take issue with negative real incomes amoung the working population.


Nobody said that you stop paying rent allowance. I suggest that Noonan propped up the rents and house prices in the period 2011 to date. That stimulus is no longer required and landlords could be weaned off supports.

How long term? 10 years? 20?

What's you suggestion to counter flat wage growth? I one am a fan of lowering the cost of living.

What exact supports are you referring to? Perhaps if you are more specific I would agree with you?

Arthur Daley

LeinsterDub wrote: »

How long term? 10 years? 20?

What's you suggestion to counter flat wage growth? I one am a fan of lowering the cost of living.

What exact supports are you referring to? Perhaps if you are more specific I would agree with you?

The levels of rent allowance paid out, the soft treatment of buy to let landlords who are strategically defaulting, the cgt treatment of property assets, the beneficial tax treatments of reits, the lack of taxation on the hoarding of land, including land banks, the continuing concentration of jobs in Dublin, including the lack of a serious attempt by the government to decentralise govt jobs outside Dublin.

There are plenty more things that can be done I'm sure.

Peregrinus

Arthur Daley wrote: »

Measure the state's income tax receipts versus it's debt. Same as your income multiple for a mortgage, would your credit provider be happy for you to keep increasing your debt continously when your income is relatively fixed?

Yes, as long as your income was sufficient to allow you to service the increased mortgage. You only have a problem if you started right off at the beginning by borrowing the maximum loan that could be serviced with your income.

(Which is where the analogy with government borrowing breaks down. Most new homebuyers do take out the largest mortgage that their income will support, or as near as dammit, and they can't borrrow more unless and until their income goes up. But very few governments are in this position.)

Peregrinus

Nermal wrote: »

A convenient year to pick. What was the trend before the greatest financial crisis in nearly a century?

Richard Hillman's claim wasn't that spending was out of control before the greatest financial crisis in nearly a century; it was that it is out of control now. I don't see any evidence of this and, despite me having asked, he hasn't produced any. He hasn't even produced an argument, never mind a fact.