.308 Advice

pm.

Hi lads

I have a steyr pro hunter.243 and I'm looking to change to a.308.

I will be using for hunting but also for some range shooting so I was thinking maybe a heavy barrel but at the same time I will be carrying thegun when hunting...

The Steyr is a tac driver so I'd like something that's very accurate. Was thinking of a second hand anschutz? My budget is around €1200

Thanks

zeissman

Have a look at a tikka t3x ctr. I bought one last year and its a great dual purpose rifle.
It has a medium weight barrel which would be ideal for your needs

Cass

First thing you need to consider is what is the more important or the primary use of the rifle. A hunting rig will be lightweight and easily carried all day but not great at continuous or string shooting on the range. A heavy barrel will be excellent on the range, but a pig to lump around all day.

Your average hunting rig may come in around 6.5lb and with scope about 8lb in total. Your "range" rifle will be more along the lines of 10lbs without scope or other accessories and could end up being in the 13lb mark.

You should consider which activity you perform the most and look to that style. For example if you bought a hunting rig you have the benefits as above. On the range it may not be able for continuous string shooting, but it will more than be able for it if you "pace" yourself. Leave the same amount of time between shots with that gap being enough to allow the barrel to remain as cool as possible for as long as possible. At some point you will get to a number of shots whereby no amount of time will suffice, you are suffering from mirage from your barrel and you may even find your groups opening up.

A sporter class rifle bridges the gap, but to me there is not one available that does both jobs excellently. It still edges towards one side of the fence or the other. So my Savage sporter is used for range time and hunting. In all it weighs about 11.5lb. Heavy for a days carrying and off the hand shots are few to far between. However once on a bipod at the range the heavy barrel allows for up to 20 rounds within 20 minutes without suffering much in terms of barrel mirage, etc. My Remington, while heavy barrel, is lighter at about 9.5lbs. Its able for both range and hunting and is better suited than the Savage. However it took some time to find the right scope, stock combo to make the heavy barrel suitable. IOW it was a range rifle pretending to be a sporter, but i turned into a proper sporter rifle.


If you're going new you have limited options, but you can consider second hand and adjust as i did. Look for a medium sporter barrel. That is usually around 0.75/0.8" at the muzzle and either .95/1.1" at the action. Allowing for length (usually 24" is nice) it's a 4-4.5lb barrel. Add in the action, bolt, and allow at least 1.5lb for most scopes you have a combined weight of 7.5-8lb. Now its a matter of what stock. Most composites are lightweight so the whole rig could come in at about 10lb. Timber will bump that up and the chassis systems will drive that up (the AICS can weigh up to 6.5lbs on its own). However balance is important and the heavy barreled action, plus a mod, against a light stock you'll end up with a muzzle heavy rifle.

You really don't need to go Anschutz plus i doubt there are many out there for your budget. Sako A7, Tikka T3, Remington 700s all come in around the same price. Each has it's own pros and cons. Light barrels, poor stocks, one more accurate than the other, etc.

Your final option is to scrap the idea of a new rifle and simply rebarrel the current rifle. You apply for the 308 license using the action/serial of your current license, and have the gun rebarreled with a 308 barrel. You either do a sub or new application depending on whether you're keeping the 243. Now you have the choice of barrel length, twist rate, contour, etc.

pm.

Great advice thanks Cass never taught of your last point. I have the steyr a good few years and it is a really accurate rifle and I'm a bit nervous of changing it for something less accurate.

These days I'm 75% target shooting and the light barrel heats up quickly on the auld.243

I may have a look around and see what I can get for my budget with steyr

Chiparus

pm. wrote: »

Hi lads

I have a steyr pro hunter.243 and I'm looking to change to a.308.

I will be using for hunting but also for some range shooting so I was thinking maybe a heavy barrel but at the same time I will be carrying thegun when hunting...

The Steyr is a tac driver so I'd like something that's very accurate. Was thinking of a second hand anschutz? My budget is around €1200

Thanks

Would not say there are many around ?

Steyr SSG 69 would also be an option. (4kg) not sure if that includes the scope.

extremetaz

Chiparus wrote: »

Would not say there are many around ?

Outdoor sports in Mullingar have a few - they secured the national dealership for Anschutz after the last crowd shut up shop. The .308 is there and it's a work of art, but you barely get a rimfire Anschutz for that budget I'm afraid; you'd just about manage a 64-actioned 22LR.

Grizzly 45

BTW re-barrelling, a Steyr is a major PITH..Barrel isn't threaded into the receiver, it's sweated into the receiver at high temps in assembly.So it is pretty much a factory job to go change out a barrel on one of these.

Chiparus

extremetaz wrote: »

Outdoor sports in Mullingar have a few - they secured the national dealership for Anschutz after the last crowd shut up shop. The .308 is there and it's a work of art, but you barely get a rimfire Anschutz for that budget I'm afraid; you'd just about manage a 64-actioned 22LR.

Do they have any second hand?

pm.

Chiparus wrote: »

Do they have any second hand?

I'll be there tomorrow, I will let you know but I doubt they do

pm.

Chiparus wrote: »

Do they have any second hand?

HI chiparus

I was at both the mullingar and ballymahon shop today and the lads don't have any second hand anschutz in.308

I decided to go with a new anshutz 1781d in.308 today. I went with the thumb stock. I have the anschutz in.17 hmr and the accuracy is unreal ( when using the correct ammo)

It cost a fair bit above budget but I intend in keeping this long term so wanted something that I know will not let me down.

Now to join a range

extremetaz

That's a rifle for life right there - well wear dude!

Damoeire33

Love my t3x sporter, mix of both worlds.

Tack driver 20mm barrel so can take a lot of shots without over heating.
Heavier than most hunting rigs but manageable

pm.

Damoeire33 wrote: »

Love my t3x sporter, mix of both worlds.

Tack driver 20mm barrel so can take a lot of shots without over heating.
Heavier than most hunting rigs but manageable

Lovely rifle... Really like the wood work

pm.

Got my approval letter in the post today hope to have the actual license before the weekend...... Then down to the range to scope her in

pm.

There she is lads

Cass

Lovely looking rifle, and best of luck with her.

There will be some bark of that. I had a short barreled Remy some time back. By jaysus it was loud.

pm.

Hope to get to the range Sunday to scope her in. Reckon it will be good out to 600 yards? I have the anschutz in.17 with a 13" barrel and it's very accurate hoping this is the same

Cass

Its Anschutz, accuracy is guaranteed.

tikkamark

Beautiful rifle that and pure quality being Anschutz....great choice!

pm.

Hi all

I have been using the rifle for about a month on the range and to say I'm disappointed with the performance is an understatement.... The gun won't group at all. It's at least 6 / 7 inches out at only 100 yards and it's in any direction.

I have tried several brands / types of rounds at this stage including FMJ, hollow point, ballistic tips all rangung from 150 to180 grain, It's cost a fortune. Something you wouldn't mind if it was going where I wanted it to go.

Just to make sure its not me a few of the lads at the range ( and these guys are putting holes in holes at 100 yards) had a go and they are getting the same results. At 200 yards I'm hardly hitting the target!!!!

I have an anshutz in.17hmr and it's very accurate. As a last resort the lads where highly recommending fiocchi ballistic tips. I got a box today and will give it a go this weekend.

I know the lads in the gun shop will sort this out if I bring it back but I would have taught I was buying a very reliable gun and a price to match....

I had a zeiss conquest scope on it ( same bad results) and recently put a sightron siii onto it again same bad results so I have rules this out.

If it doesn't work out this weekend I will have no choice but to bring the rifle back. This is probably almost unheard of for anschutz but then again any brand can have a faulty one get through the nets...

The proofing cert seems to look great at 100 meters. What would anshutz do in a situation like this?

For me it's very deflating leaving the range with such a gun and tbh it's has me loosing faith in a brand I have had and loved for years

cookimonster

1. Did you try her with out the bi-pod?

It may be putting upward pressure on the barrel

2. How is the cheek weld, are you below the centre line of the scope when you get a good cheek weld, ie get the cheek weld right then look down the scope.

If your lifting your head to get a good sight picture in the scope it can cause inconsistent grouping.

pm.

cookimonster wrote: »

1. Did you try her with out the bi-pod?

It may be putting upward pressure on the barrel

2. How is the cheek weld, are you below the centre line of the scope when you get a good cheek weld, ie get the cheek weld right then look down the scope.

If your lifting your head to get a good sight picture in the scope it can cause inconsistent grouping.

Have used the bi-pod and sand bags to no avail.

The rifle has nice low mounts and my cheek fits tightly to the stock. The attached picture is the rifle with the zeiss scope

Have since changed the bi-pod to a Harris and also have a new a-tec mod

I will try without the mod thus weekend but the mod fits snug and is smooth at the exit point

solarwinds

I would also check the scope mounts. I had a rifle before that refused to be zeroed, turned out to be a loose base but appeared tight. It wasn't properly torqued at the dealers.

Cass

There are a few things to look at but the first one that stands out to me is the rifle itself. Anschutz give open sights on their rifles. One at the muzzle and one about centre of the barrel. Also the barrel is not threaded from the factory so it means the threading job was done by the previous owner.

This could have been botched or the crown was not done properly. If the rifle is not shooting any ammo and all the other factors have been checked then this could be the culprit. The other issues to look for are:

1. Scope - Self explanatory really. A faulty scope will "jump" with each shot, not track, etc. Try the various tests described below.
2. Mounts - If they are not tight enough, misaligned, etc. they can cause issues with zeroing.
3. Ammo - Depending on twist rate and what your gun likes poor quality or just a "bad fit" ammo will cause zeroing issues. Solution is to try various brands/weights and see which works.
4. Suppressor - If the threading of the rifle is not done properly, or on the rare occasion the threading of the Mod is not correct, you will get a misaligned suppressor causing the ammo to clip the mod on leaving. This clipping can be so subtle you might not see it. A way to test is line the inside of the muzzle of the mod with tip-ex or something similar and when you fire a round check to see if there is mark or void in the tip-ex (or whatever you've used). If so you can try and bore out the mod or get the rifle re-threaded.
5. Stock - If the stock is touching the barreled action it can interfere with the barrel harmonics.
6. Crown - If the crown is damaged it will cause widening of the groups. It's a small area and unless you know what you're looking for you might not see a problem. Gunsmith can check and re-crown if necessary.
7. Rest - Sometimes a bipod can "bounce" or "jump" and cause inaccuracies or inconsistently.
8. Shooting technique - Position of your thumb, cheek weld, breathing, eye relief, etc. all take an effect on your shooting.

There are some things you can do to check the above.

1. Scope - If you had it on another rifle and it worked then grand, however a hmr is a different animal to a Swift so try the scope on another centrefire rifle. A mate's. Also a box test might be useful when on the other rifle.
2. Mounts - Check that the screws are tight and that the mounts are not shifting on the receiver/rail. Also check the scope is held in the mounts and not slipping in the rings.
3. Ammo - Try different brands, and different weights of ammo. See which performs the best.
4. Suppressor - Shoot the rifle with the mod off and see if the problem persists. If so the mod is the issue. If not then it's not the mod. Or not ONLY the mod. Bring to gunsmith to check/repair.
5. Stock - Slide a piece of folded paper up along the top of stock/bottom of barrel and it should be able to get to the front of the receiver/action without obstruction. If it sticks at any point then mark the stock and look at sanding the stock. If it's composite the same applies.
6. Crown - Bring to gunsmith.
7. Rest - Take the bipod off and use a solid shooting rest. not a flimsy one, but a solid and heavy rest.
8. Shooting technique - There is no easy solution to this. It'll come with supervision, help, and guidance. It's best to have someone there to watch you and spot things you might be doing that you don't realise you're doing.

Linear Test.

This is a simple test. Place a target (blank sheet of paper at least 48 inches tall and 24" wide) at a set distance with a single aim point/dot. With your scope mounted you take up a solid and stable shooting position. Have the gun as "clamped" as possible to avoid errors. Have the scope elevation set at 0 or bottomed out. Now dial up in increments of 5 or 10 MOA (or any amount you want) and fire a single shot after each adjustment.

You MUST keep the same point of aim throughout this test. Also use the same amount of adjustment each time until you run out of adjustment. ?When you have no adjustment left take the target down, and measure the distances between each bullet hole in the target. They should be equidistant. They should also be perfectly vertical. Any continuous left/right adjustment can be down to either poorly mounted scope (not perfectly aligned when mounted) or inability of the scope to track straight up and down. Do this once or twice to verify.



Return to Zero test

Simple test. With your scope mounted and rifle zeroed at 100 yards set yourself up much as above at a target. Fire 3 to 5 shots to create a zero group. Record the setting on the scope for your zero as you'll have to return to this. Now start to adjust the scope as much as you can (through it's entire range of adjustment) up, down, left, right and combinations of all. Now return the scope to the recorded zero. Fire a shot. It should be in or clipping the group you just fired. If not then it could be a scope tracking issue. As with all tests it's best to try it a few times to prevent corruption of the results from shooter error, wind, shooting position, etc.

Box Test

Put up a sheet of paper (blank) at 100 yards. About 48" square would be fine but as big as you have is grand. Find the dead centre of the sheet of paper. Place a half inch black dot in the centre. This is your aim point. You want no other markings on the paper to distract you. You need to be very careful that its 100 yard and no more or less than 100 by a yard. Most scopes click values are designed to work at 100 yards so you really need to be sure of the distance. Fire a couple of shots, and make sure you are in the bull with each one, and your zero is perfectly on for 100. That means not an inch high, or low.

Once you have the "perfect" zero put up a fresh target or if they are all in the black dot you can use the same sheet. Again making sure its still as bang on for 100 yards as possible. Now dial up 10 MOA (40clicks) on the scope. If the scope is worked in 1 click = 1cm @ 100 yads dial on 25clicks. That'll give you 25cm or roughly 10 inches. Aim at the bullseye and fire.

Now dial right 10 MOA (for 0.25 click valus scope) or 25 clicks (for 1cm per click). Again aim at the bullseye, and fire.

Now dial down 20 MOA (80 clicks in a 0.25 clcik value scope) or 50 clicks (if the scope is 1cm per click ). Aim at the bullseye and fire.

Now dial left 20 MOA (80 clicks in a 0.25 clcik value scope) or 50 clicks (if the scope is 1cm per click ). Aim at the bullseye and fire.

Now dial up 20 MOA (80 clicks in a 0.25 clcik value scope) or 50 clicks (if the scope is 1cm per click ). Aim at the bullseye and fire.

It's important you only fire 1 shot per adjustment. Measure the distances from holes to holes. The holes of the bullets should "draw" a perfect (within a half an inch for human error) square. You should have something like this:

Chiparus

How many rounds have gone through it?
How often have you cleaned it?


Not that I believe in it , but have you tried breaking in the rifle?

pm.

Cass wrote: »

There are a few things to look at but the first one that stands out to me is the rifle itself. Anschutz give open sights on their rifles. One at the muzzle and one about centre of the barrel. Also the barrel is not threaded from the factory so it means the threading job was done by the previous owner.


HI Cass

The gun is new and was factory threaded. This model doesn't come with sights. I had the zeiss ion a.243 and was a great match that never let me down. the results were crap and at that stage I was blaming the ammo.

I put on a new sightron Siii 10x50x60 and the results are still crap. I had the scope Taking off and checked all screws and they all seemed fine. On the scope rail we got half a turn on 1 screw but it was fairly tight and had another 4 screws holding it.

The mod is also perfect with no signs of the bullet making any contact with it. The fact the gun is new I am sure it must be covered by a manufacturer warranty?

I will take your advice at the range this weekend and also try out the ballistic rounds after that I don't know what else to do only leave it back to the shop and possibly have it sent back?

pm.

Chiparus wrote: »

How many rounds have gone through it?
How often have you cleaned it?


Not that I believe in it , but have you tried breaking in the rifle?

Has around 90 to 100 rounds through it now. At the start I fired 3 shots cleaned it up every 3 shots until I hit around 25 shots.

I actually thought that was the problem so I haven't cleaned the barrel since as I wanted it to foul up. I'm not a great believer in cleaning the barrel until it starts to go off on me. I never had a chance to have this on target...

Cass

pm. wrote: »

The gun is new and was factory threaded. This model doesn't come with sights.

No reason to doubt you, just Anshcutz do not list any rifle with no sights, and prethreaded. Hence the reason i thought it might have been done. Forgot the gun was new, but i know Mulvihills send out guns, as do most dealers, to have them threaded knowing the popularity of pre-threaded rifles over non threaded ones. So i'd check again.

The barrel should be 22.5 inches long (56cm) and there should be no screw holes on the top of the barrel (all along the barrel). Any holes and it indicates where a sight was removed.

On the scope rail we got half a turn on 1 screw but it was fairly tight and had another 4 screws holding it.

I'd still torque them to be sure.

The mod is also perfect with no signs of the bullet making any contact with it. The fact the gun is new I am sure it must be covered by a manufacturer warranty?

I had this exact problem with two rifles over the years. Both showed no signs of the bullet hitting it, but in fact there was contact, just very VERY subtle. It was "rubbing" the inside of the muzzle hole of the suppressor and this marginal contact was enough to destablise the bullet as it left the mod and gave me 7-9 inch groups at 100 yards. Solution was to drill the mod muzzle out by another 1.5mm and problem disappeared.

I will take your advice at the range this weekend and also try out the ballistic rounds after that I don't know what else to do only leave it back to the shop and possibly have it sent back?

I would try a few more things, because there is an issue and unless its a serious manufacturing fault it'll be possible to identify it, just needs some time.

Cass

BTW, and i think this was asked above, have you fired it without the Mod on?

pm.

Cass wrote: »

BTW, and i think this was asked above, have you fired it without the Mod on?

I did but it was still off. If it was only me shooting the gun I would blame myself without a doubt, but the fact that some of the regular guys at the range had a go and had the same results makes me think it's the gun.

extremetaz

So scope OK, mod OK, shot by others with same results, variety of ammo tried, variety of rests used...

Action torqued well into the stock?
Is she scattering or stringing?
Rounds chamber and eject ok?
Any visible case damage?

Seems to me you've done everything within reason to eliminate accessories or individual ability - dissapointing if it's the case, but I'd take her back and have her checked out.