Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

jonnybigwallet

I agree with you 110 percent. I've seen one of these display. Bejasus it can climb near vertically! Superb bit of kit...well proven...not too heavy on the pocket. Get the order in for 18 of these and the whole problem is sorted for only about 360 million. Comparable to recent equipment spend on the navy. Whats not to like.

sparky42

Has anyone actually bought the fighter variant rather than just the trainer version? Moreover are those figures for "clean wing" configuration or for a full load (ie missiles, fuel tanks?) Moreover it's not 360 million, that at best would just be for the airplanes. Add in combat hardware, Baldonnel upgrades, AC staffing increases etc and if those 18 come under 500 million I'd be stunned.

Meanwhile in the real world, the helicopter fleet has been active all month and has demonstrated both it's versatility and it's fleet limits, and the Casa's availability is falling off a cliff so bad that the tender for replacement is being pushed through...

jonnybigwallet

Good point. Still well worth the money to build a credible Air Force. I imagine a decent discount could be had...

Larbre34

The M346 doesn't have the performance to be a true interceptor. Its top speed does exceed most airliners and the Russian Bear bombers, but not by enough that it could close to target in any reasonable amount of time for its range, especially since the only airbase is in the east of the Country.

The PC-9 is sufficient for its designated role, but if the State were to get serious about an air defence / intercept role for theAC, job one is a full nationwide military radar and job two would be the procurement by lease, loan, barter or second hand purchase of between 4 and 6 examples of an interceptor type in common use by our EU partners, i.e. F-16, Rafale, Gripen and all ancillaries.

Personally the leased Gripens that the Czechs and Hungarians have are the sort of solution I see as suitable for Ireland.

However its not in the White Paper, so unless some major incident occurs in Europe involving a 9/11 style attack or Russian incursion that gets through the NATO net and that scares our partners into concern about Irelands atlantic air space, its all just pie in the sky.

roadmaster

sparky42 wrote: »

Has anyone actually bought the fighter variant rather than just the trainer version? Moreover are those figures for "clean wing" configuration or for a full load (ie missiles, fuel tanks?) Moreover it's not 360 million, that at best would just be for the airplanes. Add in combat hardware, Baldonnel upgrades, AC staffing increases etc and if those 18 come under 500 million I'd be stunned.

Meanwhile in the real world, the helicopter fleet has been active all month and has demonstrated both it's versatility and it's fleet limits, and the Casa's availability is falling off a cliff so bad that the tender for replacement is being pushed through...

A Colleagues Husband is in the air corps and she mentioned before to me that the casas are in serious trouble, I taught she was making things out worse than the are cause thats the way she goes on, but your comment seams to suggest she is right and the are in trouble.

Psychlops

One of the Casa's in Beirut a day or 2 ago, Army replenishment id say.

Psychlops

Nice! Seen one at RIAT before, noisy buggers & Supersonic for a trainer..

Psychlops

Seems Lockheed Martin have a steak in her too, lots of comparisons to the F-16

sparky42

roadmaster wrote: »

A Colleagues Husband is in the air corps and she mentioned before to me that the casas are in serious trouble, I taught she was making things out worse than the are cause thats the way she goes on, but your comment seams to suggest she is right and the are in trouble.

The replacement process has been fast tracked, jumping over the Navy's EPV that was forecast as the next large spend, think they are in major decline simply due to their age and hours.

prinzeugen

sparky42 wrote: »

Has anyone actually bought the fighter variant rather than just the trainer version? Moreover are those figures for "clean wing" configuration or for a full load (ie missiles, fuel tanks?) Moreover it's not 360 million, that at best would just be for the airplanes. Add in combat hardware, Baldonnel upgrades, AC staffing increases etc and if those 18 come under 500 million I'd be stunned.

Meanwhile in the real world, the helicopter fleet has been active all month and has demonstrated both it's versatility and it's fleet limits, and the Casa's availability is falling off a cliff so bad that the tender for replacement is being pushed through...

As I said earlier in the thread, Shannon, not Baldonnel would be ideal for fast jet ops. Runway is there, add a few extra taxiways and reinforced hangers.

Most of any Irish QRA jobs would be lost comms on planes coming from the West so it makes sense to use Shannon.

There is going to be plenty of F-16s with one careful owner coming up for sale soon.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

We have no real way to 'defend' our airspace. The RAF and American Air Force will always feel the need to have control over it near their borders. Especially if Russia are going to conduct missions again that run really near to our west cost.

What we can do is have a much better Irish Navy. Being an island and having an absolute massive amount of sea area as part of Ireland's territory we should definitely proceed that way. Think the Irish public could be educated about how we own territorial waters that are multiple times our land area, like 6 or 7 times.

We could benefit massively by investing heavily in having an advanced Navy. It should have good control over Irish seas - not the Irish sea yeah. Mini submarines, drones, surface to air missile ships, speed boats - a well equipped large yet nimble Irish Navy would pay us back dividends. We should push hard to have a decent Navy of some kind.

Air Force no.

Larbre34

sparky42 wrote: »

The replacement process has been fast tracked, jumping over the Navy's EPV that was forecast as the next large spend, think they are in major decline simply due to their age and hours.

No point procuring an EPV if we cant muster up crew for the 9 ships we are soon to have.

Getting a versatile replacement (maritime, ISR, medevac, personnel transport, light cargo) for the CASAs is the sensible move.

tuxy

I agree a larger navy is much more useful to us just not as exciting.

sparky42

Larbre34 wrote: »

No point procuring an EPV if we cant muster up crew for the 9 ships we are soon to have.

Getting a versatile replacement (maritime, ISR, medevac, personnel transport, light cargo) for the CASAs is the sensible move.

That's a bit of a bait and switch, the problem is that we are moving to 9 ships with no planning, the 4th P60 was a Brexit stunt that wasn't planned for the Navy. The EPV is planned for the Navy, it's core crew will come from Eithne when she retires, just as the crews for P61-63 came from the crews of P21-23, the issue is P64 was never meant to be.


As to the CASA replacement (and you seem to be missing the AC's own manpower crash), a one for one replacement isn't enough either, at worst it should be 2 MPA's and 1 general cargo one.

4068ac1elhodqr

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

We have no real way to 'defend' our airspace. The RAF and American Air Force will always feel the need to have control it. Especially if Russia are going to run missions near our west cost.

What we can do is have a much better Irish Navy. Being an island and having an absolute massive amount of sea area as part of Ireland's territory we should go that way. Think the Irish public could be educated about how we own territorial waters that are multiple times our land population, like 6 or 7 times.

We could benefit massively by investing heavily in having an advanced Navy. It should have good control over Irish seas - not the Irish sea yeah. Mini submarines, drones, surface to air missiles ships. We should push having a decent Navy of some kind. Air Force no.

This map of the Ire continental shelf 'suggests' 90% is underwater.



Navy makes more sense, but also along with advanced technology, UAVs, drones etc.

Let's face it if Vlad or some random dictator decides (0.00001% chance) to land his little green men (and SAMs/hypersonics) here, it'll be a couple of hundred thousand of lads with hurley sticks that'll see them off, not some 1/2bn worth of a handful of screaming jets, wrecking the fields.

And in any other type of national emergency (overdue-pandemic/natural-disaster/fammine/asteriod-strike/LaPalmaMegaTsunami/civil-disturbance/eu-fallout/sellafield-meltdown etc) they'll simply be background fillers for selfie-stick bloggers.

sparky42

Winter Melodic Beehive wrote: »

Let's face it if Vlad or some random dictator decides (0.00001% chance) to land his little green men (and SAMs/hypersonics) here, it'll be a couple of hundred thousand of lads with hurley sticks that'll see them off, not some 1/2bn worth of a handful of screaming jets, wrecking the fields.

I love this fantasy, it's utter nonsense yet it gets repeated over and over:rolleyes:

4068ac1elhodqr

sparky42 wrote: »

I love this fantasy, it's utter nonsense yet it gets repeated over and over:rolleyes:

Perhaps, but if some random dictator actually lands or attacks (meaning they bypass/defeat the rest of the EU and North Atlantic), won't it become a major land issue? I.e. Nothing that half a dozen mid-rate expensive jets can solve.

And ignoring all the other more likely to occur 'natural disaster events'

...if WW3 does ever kick off, the 1st concern will be dealing with a few hundred thousand near-neighbours arriving, looking for shelter from their destroyed-radiated lands, perhaps a near-neutral, far-western european, fertile-location would be ideal.

sparky42

Winter Melodic Beehive wrote: »

Perhaps, but if some random dictator actually lands or attacks (meaning they bypass/defeat the rest of the EU and North Atlantic), won't it become a major land issue? I.e. Nothing that half a dozen mid-rate expensive jets can solve.

And ignoring all the other more likely to occur 'natural disaster events'

...if WW3 does ever kick off, the 1st concern will be dealing with a few hundred thousand near-neighbours arriving, looking for shelter from their destroyed-radiated lands, perhaps a near-neutral, far-western european, fertile-location would be ideal.

Explain to me how hundreds of thousands lads with hurleys do anything in any of those situations. Any event that would be a threat to the nation in modern terms would need the response of trained people (no matter how limited their capabilities), not idiots.

4068ac1elhodqr

sparky42 wrote: »

Explain to me how hundreds of thousands lads with hurleys do anything in any of those situations. Any event that would be a threat to the nation in modern terms would need the response of trained people (no matter how limited their capabilities), not idiots.

Maybe just to save a lot of time, explain how a 'handful of jets' will do a better job, up against some future speculative power or nasty coalition, that manages to take Western Europe and the North Atlantic.

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo

sparky42 wrote: »

Explain to me how hundreds of thousands lads with hurleys do anything in any of those situations. Any event that would be a threat to the nation in modern terms would need the response of trained people (no matter how limited their capabilities), not idiots.

My understanding of that (correct me if wrong) is that a local population of 100,000 is far more likely to hold onto land than 5 or 10 jet fighters from the air.

Ireland would be better off investing in our Navy than anything else. Ground troops and an Air Force won't benefit us enough. Having a quality Navy could end up making us money as a country.

sparky42

Winter Melodic Beehive wrote: »

Maybe just to save a lot of time, explain how a 'handful of jets' will do a better job, up against some future speculative power or nasty coalition, that manages to take Western Europe and the North Atlantic.

Nice dodge on how untrained men and women are meant to be able to stop anything armed with modern weapons. But ok, Jets (and note in this thread I've been one saying "a handful is pointless, you'd need at least 18-24 for anything) can act with allies to prevent an attack. Untrained twats can't do jack ****e.


This whole "sure the new 'Ra will stop anything" mentality is part of why the Irish public won't fund the DF.

sparky42

Tangatagamadda Chaddabinga Bonga Bungo wrote: »

My understanding of that (correct me if wrong) is that a local population of 100,000 is far more likely to hold onto land than 5 or 10 jet fighters from the air.

Ireland would be better off investing in our Navy than anything else. Ground troops and an Air Force won't benefit us enough. Having a quality Navy could end up making us money as a country.

Once the enemy is on the ground? In reality any modern current gen force doesn't care about what untrained numbers of local population can do, they are only restrained by what their own domestic politics allows.


It's all of the above, just as any other EU/NATO/Western country works to field an integrated force to have the needed force.


And for any "oh small nation" crap, just compare us to New Zealand, who field capabilities that we just don't have.

roadmaster

i wonder what it would cost to operate the old Viggen currently in Casement

sparky42

roadmaster wrote: »

i wonder what it would cost to operate the old Viggen currently in Casement

We have a Viggen in Casement?

jonnybigwallet

Thsts news to me as well. What the hell could it.be doing in County Dublin?

Alun

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Thsts news to me as well. What the hell could it.be doing in County Dublin?

Taking part in the Bray Airshow this weekend.

ED E

sparky42 wrote: »

We have a Viggen in Casement?

I assume they mean sitting ready for Bray, not ours.

sparky42

Ah I thought it was part of the museum, yeah they are here for Bray.

jonnybigwallet

Gone a wee bit quiet on this thread of late. Think we can forget about them 18 Gripens for the time being. Have to make do with a few PC 12s for the moment. Bit sad when you look at what many impoverished African nations can field as an air force.

sparky42

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Gone a wee bit quiet on this thread of late. Think we can forget about them 18 Gripens for the time being. Have to make do with a few PC 12s for the moment. Bit sad when you look at what many impoverished African nations can field as an air force.

Hmm, yes sad compared to nations which buy said jets and then lack the ability to sustain them (even South Africa), while at the same time have such a host of issues that as you say they are "impoverished". I'll stick with Ireland thanks.