Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566952#Comment_118566952

No.

You don't need advanced trainers. You train new entrants to fly something simple, like the Grob they use to train airline pilots on. Then you send them somewhere else to learn advanced flying with some one who has a surplus of LIFT aircraft. All you need at home is your frontline aircraft, and a sim to familiarise the trained pilot with procedures once he is current on someone elses LIFT.

We are too small a country to operate 2 types of fixed wing trainer. We don't have the numbers of pilots, either currently or in a future fighter squadron world, to stay current as pilots and instructors, on all types.

Definitely move the Air Corps to Shannon though. Somewhere Central to our Sovereign and controlled airspace, not constrained by Built up areas. Leave the Helis and BFS in Bal while you can though.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118566952#Comment_118566952

That’s true for anything we buy. If we get ships with war fighting capability the naval base will need upgrades. If we even just buy fully equipped MPAs we’d need to upgrade the weapons storage, any fighter whatever would be picked will need those list of upgrades. Though yes kicking any fighters and MPA to Shannon makes the most sense.

Sgt. Bilko 09

Romania have received there full order of second hand f16s, now they purchasing f-35s. It’s hilarious how laid back we are on purchasing or procurement of jet aircraft.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118581364#Comment_118581364

With effectively a hundred years of inertia to overcome are you surprised?

Sgt. Bilko 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118581488#Comment_118581488

Never surprised about it man

Dohvolle

Apologies if I'm repeating myself, but post-emergency, the Air Corps took an active step backwards, technology wise. Given the state of finances we were able to field a reasonable selection of Frontline, for the Time, fighter aircraft. A few were 2 seat, for training, but still front-line fighters nonetheless. We are talking Hurricanes and Spitfires/seafires. It would be as if we were operating Tornado ADV today. Just 4 years after the last spitfire (2 seater) was deivered, we took delivery of our first Jet trainer, DH Vampire T55 with ejector seats! Granted it was lighter armed than its single seat counter part, with 2 cannon of its 4 20mm Hispano's removed to make room for a Radar. Before De Havilland decided to abandon the Radar and stick a student pilot in there instead, next to the instructor.

So we went through the 50s and 60s with impressive sounding Armed trainers. Famously, they wow everyone when they flew over the GPO on the 50th anniversary 1916 celebrations.

Then something went wonky. By the 1970s, the Vampire was overdue replacement, it was after all a 1st Gen Fighter jet, basically originally designed for a piston prop, but modified when the Goblin Jet engine was invented(the 2nd get engine after Whittle's W1, the first to get approval for use.). Someone decided oddly, to replace a single engine twin seat Gen 1 armed Jet trainer, equipped with ejector seats, with a 2nd hand tandem seat twin engine Gen 1 armed jet trainer without ejector seats. And we struggled on with these antiques (which were ideal for aerobatics, but useless for much else. Whoever decided these were a good idea is in some way responsible for the military decline of the Air Corps. How did we go for operating the same types as our neighbours during WW2 (granted some were taken into use after hard landings) to getting stuck in the 1950s? What's worse, we operated 2 types in the flight training role throughout the 70s and 80s, right into the late 90s, with the SF260W Twin seat Piston prop with underwing gun pods.

Both were replaced by the PC9 in the early 00s. We had been offered Alpha Jets, but to be fair, these are not good basic trainers, and the Air Corps had been advised to reduce the numbers of types it operated.

But somehow along the way we went from 1950s having a trainer(Chipmunk), and a frontline fighter(Spitfire) to a trainer(SF260W) and an advanced trainer(CM170 Magister), and then the current situation, Just a trainer(PC9M).

More strange in that the trainer is tandem seat, while every other type in service is dual seat. i.e side by side. It's like the intent was that the pilots would move to another tandem type, but we didn't get any.

sparky42

I'd have to honestly disagree with the suggestion that we were fielding "current" gen aircraft at any time, the Hurricanes had effectively been moved out of air to air and into Ground attack by the time we had them in service, and the Spit/Seafire is a misrepresentation, they were still in frontline RAF service because of the disruption of WW2, without that they would have been replaced far earlier by later gen fighters but the invasion panic of 1940 had massive impacts on the future pipeline of aircraft with many being cancelled or delayed to concentrate production on the in service or near service airframes. That and the fact that the Spitfire design lent itself to upgrades far more than planned.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118582236#Comment_118582236

But by modern terms, it was Tornado ADV, or maybe F5?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118582893#Comment_118582893

It’s design would be two generations out of date, late WW2 propellor design, and first gen jets, so F5? But when you combine it with the lack of radar/C&C I’m not sure they were much more use than air show planes anyway. I remember the AC having issues sustaining planes in Shannon during the was, were either the hurricanes or spitfires used outside of Baldonnel post war?

Dohvolle

Wayhay!

Government urged to purchase fighter jets to protect Irish airspace (irishexaminer.com)

Sgt. Bilko 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118603000#Comment_118603000

24! The Swiss are buying 36 F35s, it’s neutrality on steroids this week lol. I’m really looking forward to the outcome of all this. Recommended transports and 12 ships or urged to crew 9

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118603000#Comment_118603000

Slow your roll, that’s for the Option 3 “after policy discussions”, ie even if it gets accepted it’s two governments away at best before an order. Most interesting is the fact that it’s a lot more realistic than the WPs have been about the threat environments and the position that defence spending on a shoestring must come to an end.

Kermit.de.frog

At least the fact it's out there in public now how ill equipped the defence forces actually are is progress in itself.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118603398#Comment_118603398

To be fair, anyone could and should have known that already.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118603455#Comment_118603455

You would be surprised how many people don't realise we have a Navy. Also how many times do we hear mention of "Army Helicopters"?

Sgt. Bilko 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118603465#Comment_118603465

I’ve just been browsing twitter, army helicopters, army planes and my personal favourite..”we have soldier’s if they can’t do the job get rid of them, better of funding the HSE”.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118603620#Comment_118603620

Ah yes the mythical solution to everything wrong with the state "sure just give it the defence budget"... Think I've seen it suggested to fix Health, the Housing Crisis, Cost of Living, Poverty...

scotchy

Coming up on Pat Kenny😊

Sgt. Bilko 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118604166#Comment_118604166

He is normally a testbed to gauge public opinion they should be fun, better off on Joe Duffy if they are looking for anger

Dohvolle

Tom Clonan already tweeted about cheap fighter jets on twitter (promoting his appearance on Newstalk) and they were like moths to a flame.

donvito99

It's funny how for approx. 70 years, the state hasn't given a hoot for defence of its interests, and then another run of the mill DoD exercise suddenly causes the goalposts to move so violently you may as well be playing a different sport altogether.

The global trend of course suggests that our efforts may be too late. A 9 ship navy with two crews for each, that could take the best part of 2 decades if we're lucky?

Sgt. Bilko 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118604492#Comment_118604492

Pirates flags everywhere lol

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118604675#Comment_118604675

I can just guess the comments from that alone…

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118604605#Comment_118604605

Yes and no, it seems this report has been vastly more factual that the whitewashes of the two WPs have ever been (remember the 00 one?), so there’s that but also all they are laying out is the suggested options for the goalposts. The primary radar has been highlighted since the last WP as a “nice to have” so it’s not surprising, and stuff like the renaming have been kicking around for just as long. The major changes as suggested in Option 3, ie the headline of fighters is something that they are flagging as what they think we should move towards but over a period of 10 years or so.

roadmaster

So Dr Tom has pictures if F16s up. The British Times has F15s so what will the DOD go for?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118604849#Comment_118604849

Guessing neither.

Sgt. Bilko 09

Does anybody have the link to Dr Tom and Pat kenny interview, I missed it due to “Work “....and driving, radios aren’t allowed apparently

Sgt. Bilko 09

215358_a21b9438-45a6-4c26-a508-c0d1aeeeb336.pdf

The report is up

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118605063#Comment_118605063

Not up yet, should be here in the next hour or so usually. Tom was on in the 2nd half between 10 and 11.

Listen Back | Newstalk

Sgt. Bilko 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118605229#Comment_118605229

Thank you very much for that I really appreciate it, just got a notification from RTÉ saying that the report is now final and has been produced to Coveney, One of the key points indicated in the report is that it should not be long fingered. It is expected to be provided to the government ministers in the next 5 to 6 months. The document is available five minutes and has been pushed out already. There may be a hint of we can use this for political point scoring I would imagine.