Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

jonnybigwallet

Range and endurance is not really a problem at all in this scenario of an air policing / interception scenario off the western coast of Ireland. I would not for one moment claim to be a master strategist as far as air defences are concerned but this problem is so simple even for an amateur that I am surprised to even have to spell it out:

2 aircraft based on rotational basis in Donegal. 2 more on rotation in Cork.

So that there are always the 4 planes in place.

Once we obtain advance warning from the RAF that they are due to exit UK airspace at Londonderry then the engines are revving in Donegal to accompany the potential hostile or unwelcome intruder half way down the West Coast. Ten minutes later the engines are revving in Cork or Kerry to take over in the event of some dilly dally by Jonny Russian.

There is no issue arising with drop tanks being needed.

I can think of several quite decent airstrips which could be pressed into service were an emergency landing or further back up might be required.

When you consider that the most likely candidate is one of them auld bears...what's the problem?

I think Jonny Russian will not be burning tons of fuel trying to wear our boys out. Most likely **** scared if they had 2 on their tail and another pair flying straight at em!

The PC9 is only able to launch unsophisticated visually aimed missiles unlike the FA50 which is armed with state of the art missiles and aiming tech as well as advanced radar and other tech which give it the edge in a combat situation.

Night All !

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119522175#Comment_119522175

London Where Jonny?

jonnybigwallet

Ha Ha! Sorry about that slip up Roady! I had me RAF hat on at the time. Please God we'll get the auld place back again in a bit and we can drop the London bit forever. The sooner we get a punchy airforce the better I say.

Larbre34

The sooner you stop talking out of your hoop the better, I say.

EchoIndia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119522175#Comment_119522175

Range and endurance not really a problem and drop tanks not needed? You seem to be assuming any intruder/s will fly in a nice straight line close to the Irish coastline and then helpfully go about their business elsewhere. Much of the public discussion up to now has been about the need to address aircraft transiting the Shannon FIR rather than just national airspace, which does not extend far off the coast. Are we no longer to be concerned about the wider area? Also, any military interceptor worth its salt has to be able to launch and reach the required area of operations rapidly, so that involves high fuel consumption. In fact the default for many types is to fly with underwing tanks, which would only be dropped in an emergency. These aren't the paper tanks of WW2!

jonnybigwallet

That's an interesting comment and thanks for positive criticism. I revise my position and am swayed by your suggestion that drop tanks would be a useful range extender. Cheers.

Sgt. Bilko 09

In addition to polands purchase of 48 FA/50s, they are buying 96 apaches.

https://breakingdefense.com/2022/09/poland-buying-96-ah-64e-apaches-as-modernization-spending-spree-continues/?amp=1

Larbre34

Isn't that interesting, when Ukraine have destroyed (we are told) a mix of a couple of thousand tanks, self-propelled guns, armoured fighting vehicles and trucks, all with basically no attack helicopters.

Are they obsolete?

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119592308#Comment_119592308

Ukraine had no modern attack helicopters in service tbf.

That said, the actual utilisation of UKR helicopters versus the Russian mode of employment? Speaks volumes to the both the utility of the attack helicopter and the importance of well trained and motivated aircrew.

Ukrainian pilots have performed strike missions into Russia, Belgorod in particular. They kept Azovstal supplied and fighting for far longer than anyone thought likely. There are multiple videos showing UKR pilots flying NOE and achieving strikes, versus numerous videos of the Russians flying far better gear, but at above treetop height, aswell as just launching FFAR after a pull up, adding ballistic distance to avoid closing with UKR air defences.

The death of both attack helicopter and the MBT are IMO at least greatly over estimated. The main issue with using Ukraine war as an example? Is that the Russian army and AF is awful, that's a leadership and training issue. They have the gear, they have no practical doctrine and combined arms operations are non existent.

Poland's lesson from this war is a huge buy of tanks, SPGs and air power. It's also the path Ukraine will likely take in actually rearming.

Sgt. Bilko 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119592308#Comment_119592308

I wouldn’t say obsolete, I think NATO and it’s allies flooded Ukraine with man-pads due to a similar issue with supplying Ukraine with fast attack aircraft, it all comes down to training and the fact that couldn’t trained the pilots and supply the aircraft so Ukraine received Hinds from the Czechs and Hungary as they wouldn’t need training on those aircraft. If they received apaches training would be a major problem.

Larbre34

https://www.thejournal.ie/raf-gerard-craughwell-high-court-5865355-Sep2022/

While I admire his tenacity in this matter, I foresee him having buckleys of a chance of overcoming the protection of the various Defence and Official Secrets statutes, even through the High Court.

Still, no such thing as bad publicity.

roadmaster

It will probably turn out there is no agreement and the British just asked for permission to cross the country to get out to the North Atlantic in a hurry if it was an emergency similar to WW2

Larbre34

Permission?

How could we possibly know or respond if they violated our airspace, in any case? Even the situation with the RAF only serves to highlight our own callow deficiency.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119614036#Comment_119614036

I am sure someone would know something was up when they hear a pair of Typhoons going Mack 2 overhead

if there is an agreement in place and in the case of an interception where somehow Typhoons from Britain made it here on time to deal with the issue it would be very interesting to see what the protocol is in who would make the call to shoot down an aircraft if needed because that would be some can of worms politically

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119614076#Comment_119614076

Would they?

When I was a young lad, I spent my summers in south Wexford. Whenever a Concorde routing from London Heathrow to JFK passed across St George's Channel and increased its speed to >Mach 1 over open water and we were outside, we could hear the sonic boom, faintly, but quite distinctly.

We couldn't hear it inside mind you, especially if the wind direction was more northerly.

Lets assume a couple of Typhoons produce a much lower sound profile than the largest supersonic passenger jet ever in service and that they would generally route higher and slower than Concorde, to generally keep pace with their tankers and AWACs, the only way our Defence Forces would know of it, is if someone was standing outside in the right place at the right time!

And even then, could do less than the sum of **** all about it!!

Markcheese

I remember Concorde's Sonic boom ,about 9 or 10 every evening , it'd shake the windows ..

Psychlops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119614274#Comment_119614274

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gy0Quo9j8ho go to 0:22

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119614954#Comment_119614954

Can you imagine the Noise of a Pair

Larbre34

I can imagine the noise of a pair overland sacrificing height for speed on a short intercept,as in the video.

Big difference in the noise return of scenario A, as documented in the video above and scenario B, where aircraft from Lossiemouth would have more than enough time to achieve flight level 600 and supercruise ahead of crossing Irish airspace.

Gary kk

B/A British Airways. Probably appropriate.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119618283#Comment_119618283

Not the same since they grounded concorde...

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119613788#Comment_119613788

He's a senator. He could have been brought into the Oficial Secrets circle, and none of this would have occurred. Instead he got "Nothing to see here, go about your business". Which just made him more curious.

We voted to keep the Seanad, looking into stuff is what they were kept to do.

Larbre34

There is an Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence, of which Craughwell is a member.

It

considers and reports to the Houses of the Oireachtas on the expenditure, administration and policy of the Department of Defence and the Department of Foreign Affairs. 

That has its limits of course and Gerard is throwing his toys out of the pram that he's not getting to see the Top Secret stuff, almost as if being an NCO once upon a merry day years ago gives him some entitlement. Worth noting he was in the British Army too in the 70s so clearly he's not all that fussy about who defends who, but I digress.

At the end of the day, there is a whole heap of military operational knowledge that cannot be in the public domain, whether through the prism of Oireachtas Committees or otherwise and Craughwell will just have to be satisfied to be unsatisfied.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119624284#Comment_119624284

Your personal opinion of Craughwell (and his career choices, which is irrelevant, plenty of Irishmen serve in foreign forces) aside, you are way off the mark here. The Defence committee may get about an hour with the minister each year, and he sets the agenda. The Seanad gets even less time with the minister, usually the minister sends a lackey to promote whatever bill he needs Seanad support on. Sending a politely phrased question to the department will only get a "we'll get back to you" response.

Anyone who follows PQs to the defence minister will know that unless this question is asked for oral answer, usually we get a word sandwich of DoD doublespeak when the question is asked. Military doublespeak has nothing to do with it. The people of Ireland deserve to know, do we still rely on the UK to carry out the defence of our skies (and sea for that matter)? Otherwise out assertions internationally of our neutrality are a lie.

This may be the best way to get an answer. Because if the RAF are doing it (and I don't believe they are) they are doing it in the interests of HM govt, not Dail Eireann. We are their sandbags.

If then they are not doing it, then Govt (as we well know) need to make a plan as to how they will defend our airspace, if they have an interest in doing so.

Because I can guarantee the Russian Air Force, who check NATO air defence response times every February, know exactly who is watching our skies.

jonnybigwallet

https://gagadget.com/en/weapons/167452-malaysia-wants-to-buy-korean-fa-50-fighters-instead-of-russian-mig-35-and-yak-130/

These yokes are flying off the shelf...

..

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119628768#Comment_119628768

That's cos nobody wanted to be a launch customer...

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119627718#Comment_119627718

I think it's vital we know if there is deal or not.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119630361#Comment_119630361

I don't think its that particularly important.

We know there likely is a deal. We know there will have been discussions with GB on security issues of all sorts down the decades and we also know that the Government now acknowledges the deficiency in the Defence apparatus of the State and are planning to (slowly) address it.

And so if Simon Coveney came out on Monday morning with a copy of the Memorandum of Understanding (or whatever instrument was used) and let you read it in its entirety, its publication wouldn't actually make the slightest bit of difference to anything.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119630951#Comment_119630951

"We thought there was a deal" won't be much consolation when a non responsive aircraft is about to run out of fuel and crash over an irish town, its crew unconscious due to a fault in the cabin pressurisation.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119630951#Comment_119630951

Have to disagree, something that serious we should know if our elected representatives are making the calls or are allowing a foreign nation decide our fate