Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

Larbre34

I don't disagree with that, but my point is, we already absolutely know.

Any of us here and in the wider society with an active interest in such things, we've known the reality for decades.

Has it made a big enough difference to be a factor in influencing voting patterns? I would suggest it hasn't at all.

Which is probably why Defence has traditionally had such a low political priority, the party number crunchers know it barely registers with the voters.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119634474#Comment_119634474

I'm not so certain. IAA were before the transport committee recently and they as much as said the RAF do not operate within our sovereign airspace at all. They inform ATC if they are following a Russian etc that's about to enter our sovereign airspace, but they do not follow.

"We all know" is not the same as a minister standing up in the Dail and saying such an agreement exists.

If the PSNI can't cross the border from NI without Garda permission, is it safe to assume that the RAF can?

Too many "a source said" about this secret deal. If it's an MOU, it should be publicised as such, even if the contents remain confidential.

Larbre34

The IAA may have said they "do not", but a) it could simply be they don't until they need do, or need to, and the terms of such deal kicks in and b) if the RAF Typhoons were to operate in combat mode with transponders off, at high level and in subsonic flight, with tankers and AWACS in international airspace, how the hell would the IAA know they were there at all?

This stuff may include the IAA as a stakeholder, but much of it is above their paygrade.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119634953#Comment_119634953

The lack of respect this state gives the defence forces I'd would not be surprised if the IAA new more the defence forces

Stovepipe

The IAA probably know every square inch of our airspace, high and low, at sea and over land, better than anyone. Most of the DF has no mneed to look at the airspace for it's daily duty so it's not surprising that the IAA know more. The IAA have dozens of people daily employed to do so. The only other dedicated watchers of the airspace in the Irish AO, the DF, have less people who spend their day jobs looking at movements in our piece of the sky. When you have a think about it, the actual number of people looking at screens at any time of day, be it in an ATC sector room, a ship or another site or piece of equipment is no more than a couple of dozen, depending on how many are on a shift, a watch or a rotation and you can deduct the people who are dealing with Approach and other short range functions. Also, the sheer amount of data that is being picked up and presented to the screen watcher is incredible. Even if an aircraft shuts off it's transponder, it's quite visible on radar. Apart from that, I'm assuming radars need updating as much as even modern avionics do, software wise and that if we got new Primary, it would need to have an update budget in the purchase plan.

Dohvolle

I have to correct you there.

If an aircraft shuts off its transponder and it is not within range of the Primary radar that control the restricted airspaces around our major airports, it is invisible. Those primary radar have an operating range of no greater than 50 miles.

Secondary radar is a means to interrogate transponder only. An Aircraft transponder provides information on altitude, callsign etc to the secondary radar that controls the Irish controlled airspace. If it powers off, there is nothing.

Our atlantic approaches out beyond 15deg west is monitored only by the Secondary radar based at Malin and Mt Gabriel. Before transponders there was much more radio traffic as aircraft reported their position in the atlantic, passing designated reporting waypoints. The waypoints still exist.

Its not unlike AIS. Without a transponder, the system is blind.

Not an issue for commercial aviation, where everyone leaves their transponder operational. Until 9/11, where the first thing the hijackers did was switch off transponders, meaning ATC had to alert the military monitoring US airspace.

We know how that ended.

Gary kk

Might be of interest.

https://www.thejournal.ie/primary-radar-air-defence-ireland-5881009-Oct2022/?utm_source=shortlink

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119691820#Comment_119691820

As said many times, Primary Radar will be needed in order to have any use for fighter interception, let’s see if it comes to anything?

Markcheese

It may be of more use to have any new radar systems monitered and operated by Irish air traffic control ,(obviously with the df forces having full access), it may not. .

But what will need to be done by DF is security . The radar stations and it's data links and power supplies will need to be protected , and not just with a no entry sign , or a once weekly visit from a securicor van ...

So that'd mean long term 24 / 7 staffing and accomodation ,and everything that entails , on top of a mountain..or 3 ,

That's going to be a lot of resources...

roadmaster

I am sure with Modern Camera systems and Good Palacate fencing security would not be much of an issue

Even Remote ATC services are being rolled out to small airports

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704067#Comment_119704067

On the scale of the Capital expenditure, not really. How often do the existing facilities for the IAA have issues? Are the PANA loons that turn up at Shannon likely to hike up a mountain just over a radar system?

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704314#Comment_119704314

Yes.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704067#Comment_119704067

No, that's not how the rest of the modern world does it. If we are taking the armed security out of Irish Explosives and Portlaoise prison, you can be sure we won't be sticking them on top of a mountain to mind a radar.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704067#Comment_119704067

Correct, it is.

Very few aspects of modernising the DF in a leap of 50 years are going to be resource-light, lets be honest, that's why it will take 10 years to do at best and why its implementation must be planned very smartly.

There are solutions to the manpower intensity of it though. For instance, I disagree with Dohvolle when he says he thinks Air Defence Radar operations should be an Air Corps competency. As far as I'm concerned, only the Army has any experience of live ground based air defence operations within the DF and I don't see why properly qualified Army techs shouldn't remain involved. But also, I don't see why these radar stations could not be secured and manned, in part, by well trained Reserve Defence Forces members in the long run, people living local to these facilities.

If the Commission's emphasis on single force integration with a rejuvenated Reserve is to be realised, we must start getting creative about solutions.

Dohvolle

Ah stop now.

Nobody is living local to Mt Gabriel. Except that nice French lady for a while.... You can drive right up, if you know where it is, and enjoy the view from the mountaintop. After the INLA blew it up in the 1980s, the authorities didn't suddenly decide to station a platoon of the 4th Inf Bn, or even the 11th for that matter, underneath it.

It does not need manned security of any sort, committing either reservists or PDF to it is a waste of resources and counter to what we are trying to do. Modern technology, proper fencing, proper electronic security can do a much better job at far lower cost. Trespassing is not a military offence. That's what AGS are for.

There are installations of far more high value in this state that are protected by high walls, good fencing, cctv and motion sensors.

roadmaster

Having visited some of our resident Data Centers you would thing it was a CIA blacksite with security measures but all electronic and good fencing/CCTV

Markcheese

Mount Gabriel is next to schull ... So living locally isn't a problem , having the current garda force secure it could be an issue , yes there's a garda station , and yes there's a garda but , he's busy , and probably doesn't need to be going up mount Gabriel a few times a week , or watching the security camera footage ..

And it's a long way from mount Gabriel to a large station , ( bantry ? Then Bandon ? )

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119704977#Comment_119704977

Insert gif of Father Ted laughing awkwardly at the very suggestion of the notion

jonnybigwallet

You have to remember that the Russian embassy is a nest of vipers. Full of spies. What's to stop one of them slippin down to the locality with a drone in the boot of the car and parkin up half a mile away....to gather Intel on what type of kit we have?

By all means have security fences and CCTV on site. But some boots on the ground as well AND SOME AA DEFENCES!

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119705931#Comment_119705931

The Russian embassy is monitored for their activities, and why would they need to "gather intel", whatever we buy is going to be off the shelf and already in use by other nations because if the DOD tries another "bespoke" procurement god help us all.

roadmaster

If the British want to send 1 or 2 jets over too us we wont say no!

https://news.sky.com/story/uk-has-more-f-35-fast-jets-than-pilots-to-fly-them-ben-wallace-admits-12735825

Larbre34

Unless you'd like a couple of very expensive gate guardians, I suggest we should pass, cos we don't have the pilots to fly them either.

banie01

I read the story re: UK fast jet pilot shortage and had a chuckle. There seems to be an endemic fear of actual personnel, equipment and workforce planning across the UK government IMO.

It's bad enough when it's the NHS, but when it's also impacting national security and defence capability? It just highlights the disconnect between the military staffs and the MoD.

The pilot shortage is also impacting on Eurofighter capacity too. Interestingly especially as experience gained from the '67 war and later conflicts was to have more pilots than airframes. This would allow a high sortie generation rate while reducing combat fatigue and burnout among pilots in a combat situation.

Current example of this is Ukraine, where technicians have returned stored airframes to service for use by recalled reservist pilots. This is pretty basic force capability and capacity stuff. It is incredible that the UK has gotten this so badly wrong IMO.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/11/01/the-unkillable-bomber-regiment-ukraine-is-restoring-more-old-su-24s-than-russia-can-shoot-down/?sh=33bc4af37a4b

Dohvolle

They got rid of meccanos with no replacement, civvie contractor promised hours but can't deliver the quantity required to keep everyone current while they wait for conversion training, and then the Hawk T1s were withdrawn, with no RAF operated replacement in the pipeline, and an MOD reluctant to buy anything not made (in whole or part) in the UK.

They got rid of Tornado F3 and Harrier when both were still useful as just in case.

They got rid of their multi engine trainers at the same time everyone is trying to work up hours on the A400 and Posiedons, and the Hercs are grounded awaiting disposal.

Their MOD seem to have a pattern of "bin the old gear or you won't get any new gear"

Meanwhile our equivalent is "you did fine without it all along.."

Psychlops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119668436#Comment_119668436

Not to mention being dragged away from that for ceremonies/guard duty/anything else not specific to their job that they get pulled to do..

Psychlops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119668603#Comment_119668603

To this day they still talk to Shannon telling them where they are or what time they expect to be or what time Shannon tells them to not pass a certain waypoint before a certain time.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119826209#Comment_119826209

Thanks, I used to have airband on all the time when I lived Shannonside 2 decades ago. Out of touch with high altitude procedures now.

Psychlops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119826368#Comment_119826368

No problem, every day I hear them telling some jet to not pass a certain waypoint before a certain time & some aircraft telling them they wont be at a certain waypoint until XYZ.

EchoIndia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119830631#Comment_119830631

With Shannon that is usually in relation to spacing/timing for entry to oceanic airspace.

banie01

Romania has closed a deal with Norway for it's retired F16-MLU+ aircraft. 32 planes along with support package and offsets/involvement for local industry.

https://bulgarianmilitary.com/amp/2022/11/05/32-retired-f-16-fighter-falcons-found-a-new-operator-in-the-balkans/