Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119841222#Comment_119841222

The Price! Granted its a NATO to NATO transfer, and Romania already operate ex Portugal AF F16s, but it goes to show the figures being thrown about by some in govt to dissuade us going down this road (BILLIONSSS!!!!!) are clearly way off. We could in theory get our Squadron of 14 operational for under €250M and have spare change to build hangars.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119841530#Comment_119841530

Would single engine be an issue for the air corps since they would operate mainly of the west coast or do modern engines make thata non issue?

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119841558#Comment_119841558

This is a question I've long pondered and would have previously (and indeed have) pushed 2 engine as a requirement for our needs with Maritime being a primary operational focus.

I have changed my tune in that though. Look at the number of countries operating F16 or variant of (Japanese F2) and utilising them in overwater roles. The days of 2 for flying over blue are over IMO and it allows for cheaper opex.

Larbre34

I think myself, that with modern safety and locator gear, along with the eye watering and prohibitive cost of twin-engined front line fighters, single engined systems are acceptable.

F-16 and JAS-39 still the best options for Ireland.

roadmaster

Is it to late to talk to our other EU partners that are parking up there F16s to see if a deal can be done

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119841633#Comment_119841633

With the demand for airframes on the Eastern border, and our “approach” to defence and alliances… yep imo.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119841558#Comment_119841558

Portugal have been using the single engine F16 since they retired their single engine Fiat G91 in the early 90s. They have a similar airspace profile to us, with Large western atlantic approaches, and an east neighboured by a stronger friendly military. Indeed, the Azores, located basically mid atlantic greatly adds to their sovereign airspace. Jetjocks say losing one engine of two over water is as bad as losing one of one, as your options become very limited. Same goes for Norway, who face much harsher weather.

The RN operated the single engine Harrier for 4 decades from carriers, all over the globe, and replace it with the F35.

The difference though between having a single engine TP over water compared to a single engine fighter, is the fighter should have the forward momentum and altitude to return to a functioning airfield unless its a catastrophic failure. At that point, there's a reason why there is an inflatable lifeboat in the ejector seat, and the pilot wears an immersion suit with a lifevest.

It's a decision for the experts. The key point for me though is all the above-mentioned air forces maintain their own independent military SAR helis. No point waiting for the Shannon Coastguard heli to pick a downed crewman out of the water off the Donegal coast because the Sligo Heli is already picking some climbers off Ben Bulben. Once the eject is called, the other forces have their Mil SAR in the air, and already know exactly where they bugged out, and isn't waiting for the EPIRB to ring.

Sgt. Bilko 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119841633#Comment_119841633

The Dutch and the Danish are retiring their F16s from this year to 2024. Hopefully they ask about those. I agree with Labre the F16 or Gripen are the better options for us. Hungary are upgrading there JAS MS20 Block 2 version. I believe it’s a lower cost price due the lease agreement they have with saab.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119842548#Comment_119842548

Maybe thats why the Air Corps have being doing all the SAR training over the last while!!

Psychlops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119846568#Comment_119846568

Not a notion, the last SAR the IAC did was with the Dauphins & Alouettes, they do conduct winch training with the Navy, the last winchop I remember them doing was reek sunday years ago with an AW139 winching off Croagh Patrick. As it stands they are not SAR capable in any circumstance.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119847773#Comment_119847773

I am being sarcastic. But they actually have being doing a lot of SAR training over the last year

Psychlops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119848092#Comment_119848092

Where have you seen this? The winching tower thats at Bal?

Psychlops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119841633#Comment_119841633

Absolutely, who is going to fly F16's for us? Buy them now to sit on the ramp with no qualified pilots here, I wonder how long it would take to train them up? This is not an attack on the IAC, more so the Govt, more importantly the DoD.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119854885#Comment_119854885

If its any consolation, the RAF are having the exact same issues, for different reasons.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119854875#Comment_119854875

I could have being told very wrong but apperently alot of training had being going on in the Irish Sea

Dohvolle

Winching training is ongoing, but it's a huge step from winching a willing volunteer from a ship passing in the Irish sea to Finding a casualty off the west coast, getting the Advanced Paramedic winchman aboard a tiny piece of rolling deck, at night, and then triage & treat their injury, before evacuating them aboard a stretcher back into the heli.

bear1

Embarrassing that a country like ours just can't get jets and you've Eastern European countries that can get jets no hassle at all.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119858885#Comment_119858885

The political realities of us and them are markedly different whether we agree with it or not. If we were spending the 2-2.5% they are spending nobody would be asking about where the fighters were.

Dohvolle

Problem is Govt are reluctant to admit our GDP is based in large part to notional outputs of tech sector multinationals, who chose to declare in Ireland for tax purposes, but have no true economic output here. Our substantial EU payments are also included in our GDP calculations.

Like Twitter or Meta, they could pull the plug in the morning. GNI is possibly a more accurate reference point.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119861003#Comment_119861003

Which is a pointless argument in this context, even if you picked the most limited number we could easily match some of the smaller Eastern States, hell from memory our GNI figure isn't much off Finland for example, you know the ones buying F 35's. Its not much off Portugal or Greece either with their larger capabilities.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119861393#Comment_119861393

Understood but their fear seems to be if they commit to a % of GDP, then suddenly the rug will be pulled from under them, our buoyant economy will be exposed for what it is, and past promises based on % of GDP will add up to nil.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119862398#Comment_119862398

Are we talking about defence investment? Cause there it’s still the same issue that the government parties (whoever they are at the time) see no political value in defence investment.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119862490#Comment_119862490

No political value in defence investment, because there is no monetary value in it. Because somewhere back in the dark ages, the IDA decided they would not provide any support to Defence Industry startups, Ireland effectively has no Defence Industry. Kentree were bought out once their HOBO product proved itself. Timoney Built about 20 military vehicles including prototypes before shifting all production overseas. Anyone even hinting at providing a product with a military end use must market it for the civvy client base to get any sort of traction. In the 80s we looked down our nose at the Shorts Aircraft factory in NI making missiles for export. Meanwhile we compared dole queue lengths.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119862622#Comment_119862622

The counter point being that we have never had the domestic demand that would make any such industry viable, or a capability to compete with international industry. Shorts was supplying the British military and using that as a springboard for orders to get economic scales. Given the competitiveness and borderline (or straight up) illegality in the Arms industry I’m not sure we’d be able to change that enough to change the political calculus.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119862398#Comment_119862398

Our Government doesn't reference GDP for anything.

Some years ago the Dept of Finance, Central Bank, NTMA and CSO made it known that the productivity and growth reference for Ireland would be GNI*.

With GNI* (modified GNI) =

• GNI
• Minus the depreciation on Intellectual Property
• Minus the depreciation on leased aircraft
• Minus the net factor income of redomiciled PLCs.

Admittedly,they don't commit to a defence spending % of that either, but if they did, 2% would be about €4.6 Billion for 2021.

And that would be a nonsense, because we don't have the capacity to spend it, or anything like it.

Our defence commitment should be the full funding of identified needs, not build to a budget, which is the surest way to waste money there is.

And although it is far too slow for my liking, I concede that that is what LoA3 is, at a 2021 value of ~€3 billion.

saabsaab

I wonder if MIG29 would be an option now. Probably very cheap after the Russian performance in Ukraine i.e. nobody will be looking for them.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119866397#Comment_119866397

No.

Everyone who has used it has sait they are POS that they ended up stuck with post Cold war. Nobody is buying them voluntarily. Even russia does not use the same version as what it exports.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119866553#Comment_119866553

Even cheaper then if nobody wants them.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119866643#Comment_119866643

Why would any Western nation buy Russian equipment? One of the reasons why the Eastern nations are ramping up their retirement (apart from shipping them to Ukraine) is because Russian supplied parts are an issue. There is no “cost savings” for the airframe, we could literally get whatever number of F16s, our costs will be all the other stuff is needed to maintain fighters.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119867322#Comment_119867322

Price? Buy several for parts as well. Must be many countries getting rid of theirs. All we really need is an interceptor for off the coasts.