Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

Mav11

Dreadful and embarrassing.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120463724#Comment_120463724

Bit of a BS article.

In that scenerio the Cessna is picked up on air traffic radar but then the article says we have no radar to find it. But they've already found it. The guns on our PC9 can take down a Cessna but I don't know if it's something they practice or have appropriate sights. It's basically a WW2 scenerio with a patrol over the target and a lone very slow target.

It's worth remembering on 911 the US with all its capability wasn't able to stop those attacks.

Cessna was able to land in red square. At the height of the cold war.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20609795.amp

...but you all lose your marbles...

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120463783#Comment_120463783

Wait till you hear the outrage later on the radio phone-in shows around dublin as people complain about the giant metal birds terrorising them in South Dublin all weekend.

"I Seen it with my owen eyeys Joe! Its Mouth was open it as it flew over clondalkin!"

"the men from the US Embassy are saying what you saw were Helicopters.."

"I know helihopters Joe, this one sounded different, and much larger... like the drums of warrrrrrrr, and dere were 4 udders hunting together. My aunt's second cousins best friends milkman says one of them grabbed his young lad and flew off wid him in its mowath!"

"and next we have the local Sinn Fein TD to tell us what he saw"

"People was cryin down the phone to me Joe. Its another attempt by the gubernmant to Make us join NATO"

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120463728#Comment_120463728

Ask yourself, who sets the Budget for Defence?

Is it

(a) the Chief of staff

(b)Sec Gen at DoD

(c) Minister for Defence

(d) Minister for Finance

(e) Someone else completely

The correct answer is the only one who we should be looking to resign.

Mav11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120463985#Comment_120463985

The answer is: (e) Someone else completely

Usually DPER has the final say in setting the budget.

But the way the estimates process works, is that the COS will prepare the "wish list" of the need / nice to haves for the following year. This is usually completed mid year of the preceding year. This would then be presented to the Sec Gen DOD and discussions would take place between the COS, Sec Gen and Minister at the latter stages.

The agreed position between the COS and DOD / Minister would be presented to DPER around September and negotiations would take place between DOD and DPER with the Defence Minister making representations to their DPER counterpart.

Revised Estimates Volume (REV) is then produced around budget day!

So really it is DPER who has the final say!!

But I am not calling on anybody to resign because of budgetary factors. I'm saying that there should be resignations due to planning and operational failures!

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120463724#Comment_120463724

The certainty of an Irish article on UKdj, WW2 is going to be mentioned without fail, and then why don't we have a "joint" something or other with the UK.

Flinty997

Sounds like a made up article that they threw "simulation" into to make it sound plausible to anyone who reads without thinking.

banie01

Word that Romania are now buying F35s in addition to their recent F16 buys.

https://m.digi24.ro/stiri/actualitate/romania-a-decis-sa-cumpere-avioane-de-vanatoare-f-35-2312015

The F35 is far beyond our need but given the current scramble for serviceable airframes of 4th gen and better around the world right now? Were the approvals for a buy to be granted tmrw and the tender process completed immediately? We are still 4yrs+ away from having any nascent Irish air policing capability.

Much as I have said over on the Naval thread. We need to move towards taking advantage of our good relations with EU and of the economies of scale that offers for the navy we should IMO be all over the PESCO corvette project.

For the Air Corps? We are lucky enough to have one of the best options for our needs available from an EU partner in the Gripen.

Further if we were to decide money was no object? 2 of the other likely candidates in the Rafale and Eurofighter are also available intra EU.

My own preference is the Gripen and that is primarily a serviceability and cost per hour choice. If the recommendation of the former CoS is taken and 16 airframes purchased? I would be very interested to see what the purchase offsets offered would be.

I do think that prior to any purchased airframes arriving in Ireland? That we implement an air policing deal with an EU partner, similar to the Iceland and Baltic's Air policing missions. It would allow our ground crew to gain experience whilst building skills under expert supervision.

The "ideal" for Ireland is SNN basing, this is an issue with the current Military airport being in Dublin. We can hardly expect AP intercepts to launch from Dublin and delay kicking in the reheat until over the west coast? It would add unnecessary time to any intercept.

That we have talked over the options for years on this thread is a stark reflection of the strange neutrality that Ireland pursues.

Neutrality is a fine goal, but our version of it? Is not neutrality it is impotence.

The aim of any neutral country isn't to hope everyone leaves them alone whilst they enjoy the tacit protection of powerful neighbours solely on their goodwill.

It is and it must be having the ability to extract a price from any aggressor. Not to win a war nor play as a great power. Rather to ensure that those who have volunteered to protect our island and our people, have at the very least, the means to impose a cost upon any party that seeks to impose themselves upon our sovereignty and our island.

Flinty997

What price or cost do you think will deter an aggressor. Can you give examples?

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120464380#Comment_120464380

Something the RAF have wanted for years. Then they wouldn't have to worry about navigation errors over Donegal.

It does make sense though, after all, the Scandinavians are doing it.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120464064#Comment_120464064

What planning and operational failures are there that did not have budget as a root cause? (correct answer by the way).

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120464821#Comment_120464821

On my device, this thread shows as 157 pages. I've been contributing to it for quite a while and this question has been answered previously by me, by others and by the defence commission report.

What I would say rather than telling you go read those previous posts, many of which in fairness you contributed to too.

Is that in light of the shifted geopolitical reality post Russia's invasion of Ukraine that I'd expect that LOA3 is the baseline for the future of the DF rather than an aspiration.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465018#Comment_120465018

Sure if we had jumped to LoA3, had massively expanded the intake of DF personnel, were planning a new base in Shannon and had ordered fighters, right now the only joint situation I could see would be the RAF finding some planes to operate here and a random token AC person standing on the tarmac unless it was based here in which case the Army would be part of that joint unit keeping all the crazies away.

Mav11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465023#Comment_120465023

The planning and operational failures refer to the absence of a suitable radar, referred to above.

This is despite an unspent €29.5m in 2021 and an additional €60m in budgetary allocation for 2023.

I don't know the 2022 outturn as the appropriation accounts are not yet published, but I believe that there is an amount unspent last year also.

So it seems to me that there is plenty of budget available but an inability to plan for its expenditure. So maybe you're looking in the wrong place when blaming a lack of financial resources for DF failings???

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465601#Comment_120465601

If you knew why there was a €29.5m underspend in 2021, you might understand, however it's not something I'm willing to discuss here. Those who know, know, and they also know who to blame.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465128#Comment_120465128

Nothing against policing our airspace or seas properly but I think the Ukraine war demonstrates we (on our own) could never cause enough pain or cost to any potential aggressor that could reach our shores. So it comes back to what we need to police our borders at reasonable cost not fight WW3.

Not that it matters this thread will only accept one answer, with no compromise. Pointless trying to discuss anything else.

Mav11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465676#Comment_120465676

And underspends of €6.2m in 2020 and €11.4m in 2019??

As I said dysfunctionality, an inability to run the DF properly. Not a shortage of budget! That's all I'm saying.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465676#Comment_120465676

I'm guessing it wasn't on anyone Radar....

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465925#Comment_120465925

You are wrong we could make any agressor think twice especially if in an initial invasion where they would be on the back foot. Think of what Ukraine did with drones plenty of small arms and portable missles. Add in a few fast tanks/AFVs a few road capable stol aircraft and fast attack boats.

EchoIndia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120463783#Comment_120463783

What jets are being given to Ukraine other than MiG-29s? Poland and Slovakia are the two donor countries involved.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120466038#Comment_120466038

Unless I'm mistaken that war is still going on... so not deterred regardless of cost. Kinda was the point.

I like how you went straight to invasion. Go all out.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120466053#Comment_120466053

Open to correction I don't think there's any other firm commitments.

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/will-ukraine-get-western-fighter-jets-what-are-challenges-2023-02-09/

Psychlops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120463985#Comment_120463985

BBBB!

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120466061#Comment_120466061

Deterrence doesn't alway work but it's better than nothing. At least in WW2 we hard a large mobilized force and even a few Hurricanes (front line aircraft) plus a few more outdated aircraft. Even in the 50's we had jets!

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120465601#Comment_120465601

There's so much nonsense here its difficult to know where to start.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120467451#Comment_120467451

No we didn't, as forces go we had a bare minimum with little of modern equipment, the AC was incapable of controlling the airspace over Dublin let alone anywhere else in the country at any point and our Jets were outdated by the time we got them.

The figures and equipment has changed but at no time have we been able to claim that the DF would have been in position to deter any hostile force.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120467451#Comment_120467451

Hurricanes Mk1 by 1943 when Ireland got them were mostly obsolete as fighters. They were being withdrawn in Europe as too slow. The Mk2 which we got in 1945 had been obsolete as fighters after 1943. Its was still used in ground attack. Modernish ? But it's a stretch to say 12 aircraft was a deterrent in an era of massed formations of hundreds of bombers.

If we want a QRA to police and patrol our airspace is one thing. To counter or deter an "invasion" is entirely another.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120467517#Comment_120467517

' Requests for more aircraft from Britain resulted in 13 obsolete Hawker Hector biplane light bombers being supplied during 1941. Twelve Hawker Hurricane Mk. Is were initially ordered for the Irish Army Air Corps in 1940 but were not delivered due to a wartime embargo imposed by the British Government. Eleven Hurricane Mk. Is were eventually delivered to the Air Corps, from surplus R.A.F. stocks, between July 1943 and March 1944, and the Hurricane Mk. I (no.93), that crash-landed in Co. Wexford in 1940, was the twelfth aircraft. These were supplemented by 6 Hawker Hurricane Mk. IIcs that were delivered to the Irish Army Air Corps in March 1945, to eventually replace the Hurricane Mk. Is of No. 1 Fighter Squadron. Supplied from surplus R.A.F. stocks, the Hurricane Mk. IIcs were the last batch of aircraft to be delivered to the Air Corps before the end of World War II. The Hurricanes were the first monoplane fighter aircraft to enter service with the Air Corps and were also the first aircraft capable of reaching 300 m.p.h. in level flight. The Hurricane gave the Air Corps a proven modern fighter, and – at peak – 20 flew in Irish colours'

They may not have been top of the line but would still have been useful.

'In April/May 1941 the strength of the Emergency Army reached a high point of almost 41,000 and in June 1943 the Local Defence Force reached a strength of 106,000.'

Enough to make an invader think twice..

Flinty997

French army was 900,000 in 1939 with over 4000 tanks. Defeated in 6 weeks in 1941.

Battle of Britain 749 Fighters vs 2550 German Aircraft. By 1943 there were 1000 bomber raids.

12 Hurricanes would make them think twice alright.

bear1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120466053#Comment_120466053

Denmark seems on the cusp of supplying jets and the British are still debating it.

I meant more of the fact that there are countries willing and or have given jets for free. I believe Sweden have more than once offered deals for the gripen?