Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

Larbre34

I'm not sure why a normally rational analyser of things like yourself, can't understand when its being pointed out to you that you're comparing apples with oranges.

Let me put it to you in the simplest and most basic terms:

Leave aside tax take, leave aside GDP and GNI and tax burden per capita. This, below, is the bottom line.

As a State, assets are increasing by about €4 billion per financial quarter and liabilities are decreasing by about €2.3 billion. So, according to the Central Bank, the net financial wealth of Ireland inc, is about €150 Billion in deposits, equities, bonds, gold etc. And its increasing by an average of 12 to 18% annually.

Thats not current income to be budgeted against current expenditure, that is 'SOVEREIGN WEALTH' and it something we never traditionally had and it is growing quicker than most global States, even the big dogs.

We. Are. Rich.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121185842#Comment_121185842

Because we import our energy supplies which are vulnerable to supply and demand and refuse to explore options like Nuclear.

Because it would need to be nuked from orbit and built from nothing (and that includes all involved sectors/interest groups/employees), and even then it actually is pulling ahead of what was once held here the gold standard of the NHS.

Because we have a structural housing issue brought on due to a multiple of factors from planning, to public policies, to NIMBYs to the construction sector never recovering from the Crash, all of which inhibits the sector driving up costs impacting affordability and access.

The reality is if you were on a French boards, or German, British or even the States you could have much the same list of issues even though they are G7 nations... How many are homeless in those countries? How many complain about their healthcare systems? How many households are struggling?

We aren't unique in anyway in that regards, doesn't make us a poor country.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121185842#Comment_121185842

a) They aren't, not compared to other households in Europe. House sales are buoyant, car sales are up significantly, not just on 2022 but also on pre-Covid 2019. Retail sales are up 7.5% on 2022, not just in price, but in volume. Outbound travel is exploding. We have full employment and a lower percentage of welfare dependent households than most any of our EU counterparts.

b) Mismanagement, mismanagement, mismanagement. But specifically a failure to plan for an increasing population, not a funding issue.

c) 12,000 homeless for a population of 5.2 million is not untypical. Doesn't mean its right, but the Irish housing market suffered a massive yo-yo shock from 2007 to date, and we effectively lost a decade. See population issue above. We require a massive planning overhaul to provide for the reasonable and sustainable development of this State out to 2100 and beyond.

d) See b)

I don't agree about all public infrastructure, but some things have been better provided for than others.

In the case of defence, we all know why. No threats, no votes, no need.

But I agree with your general point, Ireland is a very rich Country, it is the lack of proper project management in the public sector and the indulgence of certain lobbies and vested interests that make it very inefficient.

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121186823#Comment_121186823

Will the italians throw in a few helicopters as part of the deal?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121186895#Comment_121186895

Oh I'm sure they would be happy to give us a package deal, but we are still going to be paying Cash for anything...

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121186919#Comment_121186919

It would be an easy and cheapish win for the government to say M346 now solves our air policing problem once they dont tell the public what speed it can do. Air Station Finner camp here we come.

mupper2

Ah it's a oood laugh lads,.

Larbre34

Amusingly, the youtube ad that came up when I clicked on the link, was for Pizza.

But no, the 346 does not satisfy our capability gap, it is too slow and lacks the range to police the EEZ and close to intercept civil aviation jets.

The video itself says it, when Hawks were used as short-range air policing aircraft, it was only in support to the Mach 2.2 Tornado F3.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121189159#Comment_121189159

I would guess that the comment in the video may be based at least in part from the Leonardo submission to the Commission, weren't they plugging the 346 as an option? That being said, whether or not it actually would do anything about our capability gap is besides the point, as seen even in the last week it would be enough for the Government of the day to say "we've done this" and pretty much get away with wasting money on an airshow plane.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121189159#Comment_121189159

Agree, we need to abandon the notion of using LiFT or similar to fulfil our air policing need. The training of pilots can be farmed out to one of the large EU training schools, 1 of which coincidentally is run by Leonardo. Theres also the UK option via Lockheed/MFTS and plenty of other options available for fast jet training. Ireland buying a pool of LiFT/Advanced Trainers to service the relatively small numbers of pilots we would have? Is a waste of resources IMO. For advanced flight training there is immediate economy of scale available if we outsource that.

roadmaster

The M346 be like the young lads in the 90s driving around in 1.6 bog standard scubbies with a WRX sticker on the back. Looks the business but no punch.

Markcheese

The difference there being the 1.6 with gold wheels and a WRX sticker did the job , effectively and probably more efficently than a genuine sti - it was going to get the lad to work on monday morning and drive around the town with the stereo blasting at the weekend - with less chance of blowing the turbo or needing an expensive tech to tune it - cos it was never going to actually be raced ..

However if the state wants air-policing that wont really cut it, it may not need an f35 or a rafalle but it would need something more than an m346 , fine if thats a step in the programme, but it seems a bit unnecessary

jonnybigwallet

Seems a good fit. Malaysia recently bought 18 of the highest specced block 20 version for 919,000 million USD.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/asia/malaysia-fighter-jets-south-korea-defence-fa-50-3525046

roadmaster

With the use of Microlights on the attack on israel yesterday there may be still need for HMG in the role of air defence

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121191942#Comment_121191942

The purchase is part of the Royal Malaysian Air Force’s (RMAF) Fighter Lead-in Trainer - Light Combat Aircraft (FLIT-LCA) programme, which seeks to replace its ageing BAE Hawk 108/208 in the trainer and light fighter roles as well as its Aermacchi MB-339 trainer aircraft.

For about the 17th time on this thread.

FA-50, Trainer!

M346, Trainer!

L159, Trainer!

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121208345#Comment_121208345

Even disregarding the Microlight example(not that it's irrelevant , it isn't but countering a microlight crosses with the same threat ID, low, slow and likely armed as mini Drones)Ukraine, Nagorno Karabakh, Syria and the rest of the ME have highlighted the need for HMG and small calibre AAA(sub 40mm) in the anti-Drone role.

If you're threat matrix includes drones? A nation would quickly run out of SAM if they didn't have AAA and ideally proximity fused or AHEAD style fuzing available.

Drone swarms and kamikaze drones are a new reality and they cannot be met effectively with high cost SAM. Even the "cheap" stinger, igla and similar manpads are orders of magnitude more expensive than a drone with a 3D printed grenade harness.

Skyranger and other CRAM have a part to play in point defence, but? HMG with appropriate Thermal and NVG will fill the gap between fixed CRAM positions and Gepard/SkyRanger style systems.

The SkyRanger turret and CV90 pair up is one that will do well on international market IMO.

**Edit** I've just realised that the 30mm SkyRanger turret has been adapted for MOWAG Piranha/Stryker hulls. Not that out lot would see that as advantageous.

jonnybigwallet

TA50 trainer

FA50 light multirole fighter

tippilot

I think we may have to face the reality that the know-how for operating a front line fighter simply does not exist here and that we may be a generation of operating a fighter evolved trainer away from acquiring that capability.

While the M346FA wouldn't have the speed or range to perform QRA, it would allow the building up of skills over a decade or so in the organisation in order to allow the longer term purchase of a more capable type. There's a learning curve there and we can't just jump to the top of it. Think of things like air to air missiles, radar(AESA), guided air to ground weapons, BVR, IFR, Electronic warfare. The baseline capability is literally zero.

jonnybigwallet

Very fair assessment. Not only from a flying point of view but maintenance and other support skills.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121209988#Comment_121209988

What other type in service today would you expect the FA50 to defeat in air-to-air combat?

Cos if I were in a Mig-29 or an SU-35 or a J-20, I'd laugh my absolute ass off to see one coming for me.

jonnybigwallet

Grow up.

roadmaster

In fairness the M346 can go supersonic if it has no attachments on it and if dives from a really really high height

jonnybigwallet

Exactly! The bear is the one that needs to be sent on its way. And a pair of FA50'S would do the job nicely.

I suggest 4 TA50 trainers initially to get the lads up to speed and then a dozen FA50's a couple of years later.

A ready made airforce for just sat of a billion quid. Would get 30 years out of it, and probably a bit of loose change left behind the sofa for a couple of helicopters.

RavenP

@Larbre34 There is some merit in what you say. What real defensive bang do you get for your buck with the FA-50 or M346FA? We will spend a billion and comit to maybe 100-150 million a year to maintain the basic intercept capability, but how much more secure will Ireland be for that? Dohvoille and Tippilot make fair points about building up experience, but s a non aviator, is an FA-50 not about 90% of the way to an F16 or Grippen, in terms of learning curve, already?. In a sense, all defence procurement is, for most coutries outside very active zones, a protection against unlikely, but not impossible events. But as it stands at present Bears are NEVER, straying into Irish airspace! Also, as JonnyBW points out, Mig29s and J20s are never in our airspace either. But the truth is, if there was ever a real possibility that Bears might deliberately enter Irish airspace we would be in a scenario where other combat aircraft entering our airspace would be a very real possibility. If we are beginning to get serious about defence, we need to think about this, as the idea that we only need a few jets to ward off Bears that are really interested in probing UK and not Irish airspace seems to me to be us doing the UK's job for them. I think BTW that we do need much better air defences, but we should be doing so in a way that best defends Ireland, and our partners / allies, but with the emphasis on Ireland.

banie01

There are huge capability gaps to be bridged by our Air Corps when the time comes to choose what we fly.

As has been pointed out ejector seats, turbofans, modern avionics and multiple other maintenance routines to be learned before we put any plane up.

I disagree strongly with us buying LiFT or advanced trainer aircraft. Our pilot training can and I really feel should be outsourced. There are multiple militaries already undertaking that path.

The impending leap of our air corps from turboprop to turbojet, is the kind of leap that one often associates with 3rd world militaries. Buying shiny and bright new toys that gradually become unusable without support, training and parts. It's a well known trope in the AV geek world. Usually backed up by examples of F5 or Mig21 in service of piss poor countries.

My own take on how to avoid our spend becoming a white elephant? Is still as I've repeated often here, a partnership with one of our EU neighbours. If we take the Gripen as our airframe? We partner up with Sweden and have them deploy a detachment to SNN. Our ground crew train with the Swedes and learn to support and maintain the airframe.

Our pilots do basic and selection training here, on the Pilatus and whatever replaces it. Once the pilots are streamed into Fast Jets V everything else? We send the fast jet trainees to Sweden or avail of the other military flight schools(Given that Bae are still involved with SAAB, even the UK).

Given we are at the very most going to buy 16 airframes, and likely less? I firmly hold the opinion that our standing up and equipping a flight training cadre for such a small group, is reinventing the wheel. We have the opportunity to learn from experts. It offers us access to top quality training immediately along with the economy of scale available with sharing the training resources.

The money we will need to lay out to ensure we can at least police our airspace is a large wad. Likely €1billion upfront and €100 million a year in operating costs. I'd rather as much of that money as possible goes towards the pointy end. We do that via partnering with allies and using those partnerships to full advantage for training, co-basing and secondments.

RavenP

@banie01 I think 16 is a minimum, but I agree with a lot of what you say. At least initially as much should be done by experienced contractors as possible. In time the Air Corps / Air Force, may take on more of thse roles, but initially we need to get up and running on so many fronts, so quickly, there will have to be some expertise bought in.

jonnybigwallet

Isn't it a bit of a leap of faith to assume another nation is able and willing to help out?

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121214092#Comment_121214092

Not at all. It's a very common means of building capabilities. Fighter sales are big business, Govt to Govt sales. Everything that can be done to facilitate those type of sales and transfers is done.

It's why so many privately contracted maintainers are in Saudi and other gulf states. Prior to that, the USSR was very fond of lending "advisors" along with their Monkey variants and why any nation that got Sov spec, was also awash with technical staff. The US, UK, Russia, France and other airframe exporters all have done similarly.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121214145#Comment_121214145

A fair point on keeping the pilot cadre congruent and qualified, particularly as the entire basis of successful fighter missions is the 2 ship & 4 ship formations. Building comradeship and élan is vital and that's done by keeping crews and squadrons together.

SAAB have put a lot of effort into the Brazilian training programme. It gives a great onward career path for Swedish instructors. Even the UK ETPS has gone private and is now run by Qinetiq. Developing our requirements to align with the fast jet training options available in EU is a means of Ireland ensuring we get best bang for buck.

The pilot and maintainer training is a huge part of any sales pitch that the manufacturers will make. All the main manufacturers will seek to offer either worthwhile training that will develop our own training cadre, or they will try and sell their ground care package alà Saudi, which is I feel the wrong route to set our hat on. If we can provide our maintainers and pilots the challenge of good equipment and more importantly, pay them properly! We can build a service that folks can once again feel proud to join and one that offers a career.

100gSoma

Speaking of high speed jets.... supersonic flight from Lossiemouth to no doubt identify a zombie flight off Donegal. Flights with no transponder flying across and through civil aviation routes pose a threat to commercial aircraft and need to be identified and shadowed out of civilian airspace. Regardless of the politics - that fact holds true.

Larbre34

Was that yoke really pulling Mach 1.4 over Lough Swilly and north Donegal?