Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628314#Comment_120628314

Theres precent in previous conflicts of destroying supporting bases and infrastructure, for example refuelling stops, or communication nodes. Long way from main area of conflict.

Indeed there's some circumstancial evidence that each German bombing in Ireland coincided with Irish activity that could be construed as pro-allied.

RavenP

@delusiondestroyer Do you know why the British did not invade during WW2? They did not invade because in 1941 Churchill sent a British Army delegation to observe Irish Army summer manouvers. The excercise (which the British may have instigated) simulated a Nazi invasion of 25,000 paratroops with only limited sea landings in Ireland by the Germans. After watching the excercise, the British delegation was able to repoirt to a delighted churchill that they were confident that the Irish could hold the Germans on the Suir and the Barrow and counter attack. I do not now if you have Irish Times access but there has been some discussion of this in the letters over the past year or two.

But the reason why the excercises were a success and the reason the British did not invade, is that De Valera had commenced a fairly swift military buildup in '39, taking the Army to 40,000 regulars with decent enough equipment and good training by '41.

The thing is Ireland was able to defend against any likely German invasion with some plannong and spending. Same today, from other threats.

Also if there was an international crisis abnd Britain was building its military capacity, the Irish state could do the same. THe 4:1 ratio will still apply. In 1942, with reserves included, the Irish Army was over 100,000 strong, with basic equipment for each man. The problem today is that systems and tactics are more complex, and training takes a couple of years in toto, not a couple of months. If we need to be secure (and you seem to think a UK invasion is a possibility) then we need to think about it now!.

I note also that you did not address my comment that a war which is so all encompasing that targets are being hit in Britain, could also spread to Ireland? I suspect that that is because it is bloody obvious that it could.

delusiondestroyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628330#Comment_120628330

Do you care to answer the point i have raised several times.

Who is attacking us?

How are they attacking us?

Why are they attacking us?

Of course i don't think you will as most on here just skirt around questions and dance the fence rather than answering them definitively i on the other hand answer any question put to me and no problem in doing so.

And yes you did miss the reply because i replied to that post and highlighted glaring flaws in it that were just completely ignored.

Big country vs Ireland, NATO and the EU... answers itself really.. but basically subtract Ireland completely out of the equation and you have the answer of what would happen.

Ill spell it out further though as you willl more than likely miss the point.., Attacking Ireland would result in "Big Country" being mauled by NATO and the EU and no the UK would not say "you're on your own Ireland" as Ireland would be a staging ground for invasion they arent morons and wouldnt allow an enemy to take Ireland.

delusiondestroyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628395#Comment_120628395

The landscape is completely different now you cant apply 1940's logic to todays world it simply doesn't work, we are more likely to receive aid and help from the UK than to be invaded by them.

I don't and haven't said a UK invasion is a possibility ill state that right now there is a 0% chance of Britain invading us.

Ireland would be at the bottom of a very long list in the event of a global conflict.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628381#Comment_120628381

Lets not forget the RN destroyed the navy of an ally, France, after Vichy France had surrendered to the Nazis. It did so to prevent the French Fleet from getting into Nazi hands, even though the French had offered to scuttle the lot.

delusiondestroyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628314#Comment_120628314

I posted a source that completely dispels the myth around the Russians just coming along chopping all the cables its not nearly as handy as that. And you can be sure if we know about it NATO knows about it, they will obviously be defended. No one is depending on the Irish military to defend that.

delusiondestroyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628440#Comment_120628440

1940s lad its completely irrelevant to the conversation regarding modern warfare.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628440#Comment_120628440

Thats putting it a bit extreme to be honest, the majority of the French fleet survived in Toulon until the French themselves scuttled them, the actual results of Operation Catapult was mixed.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628457#Comment_120628457

Is it? I thought we were throwing out random red herrings, I said I'd join in.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628476#Comment_120628476

Well we are ignoring history or facts. So any hacks which didn't happen in the last 24 hours are irrelevant.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628440#Comment_120628440

I was more thinking of communication Infrastructure that gets destroyed.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628453#Comment_120628453

Ah.

If you're going to argue military logic on the military sub-forum with people who are paid to know this sort of thing, it would behoove you to be up to speed on correct terminology. I've been talking about lines of communication, not communication cables.

delusiondestroyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628668#Comment_120628668

So the US would 100% stop any attacking force from taking Ireland as it is critical to there LOC with Europe and the UK.

Thats even better lol you just undermined your own argument and proved me correct at the same time.

As i said multiple times in the thread Ireland is geographically safe due to being sandwiched between the Uk and US

Flinty997

So a country does multiple drive-bys your front door, tests the door handles. But we reckon closing the curtains so we can't see them, means they can't see us. Makes sense.

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628758#Comment_120628758

I think "defeat" is more accurate than "stop" as the one is not absolutely required for the other. Any effects on the Irish citizenry in the meantime until the defeat occurs is, to both sides, entirely incidental and not really their concern. Your position cedes the fate of the Irish people to third parties, to whom they are a subsidiary concern.

Do you dispute the concept that the first duty of a government is the protection of its citizens? The political question of whether the Irish government should do that has already been answered by the country's political leadership, in the affirmative. The question becomes the most cost- effective way of doing so to an acceptable standard.

Larbre34

I think you should all stop feeding the troll.

You simply cannot argue with stupid, so why frustrate yourself.

bear1

Ignore button is a lovely feat

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628758#Comment_120628758

Is he aware the earth is not flat? The GIUK gap is not the chokepoint it once was. Murmansk is 4 days sailing away. 4 hours flying in a TU-95 staying in international airspace.

EchoIndia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628927#Comment_120628927

We've been here before on this thread, with the same person or his/her doppelganger. You could argue the issues forever, but to what avail?

delusiondestroyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120628919#Comment_120628919

You fail to realize its always in 3rd party hands, a few jets isn't going to change that in a large conflict where Ireland finds itself under sustained attack from a nation capable of attacking it in the first place.

Would you not agree that any nation capable of attacking/invading us would be capable of defeating us?

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120629576#Comment_120629576

In isolation, sure.

As part of a larger overall conflict, I would be less certain of that.

This, again, of course, assumes that there is no sliding scale/continuum of requirements, that things go straight from 'peacetime' to 'WW3'. Which, of course, isn't reality.

delusiondestroyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120629595#Comment_120629595

As part of a larger conflict assuming all things being as they are with NATO, It would be some challenge to attack Ireland. Do you know of a power that could face down the US Atlantic Fleet along with the UK RAF and RN... tall order to get to Ireland in war time.

I think if we as a country are that worried about defence then all roads lead to NATO anything else is a stop gap.

RavenP

@delusiondestroyer

You said "The landscape is completely different now you cant apply 1940's logic to todays world it simply doesn't work, we are more likely to receive aid and help from the UK than to be invaded by them".

Is it, I think you will have to explain to me why the geopolitical lessons of 1939-45 are not relevant? Just saying it doesn't make it so.

Also you are still trying to argue both sides of the argument. Saying we are not a target and then saying USA will protect is because we are vital to heir interests is contradictory. If we are vital to the interests of the USA we are a target for an enemy of the USA. Simple as that.

And while you may be correct that the USA will, probably come to our aid if attacked, if we do not take more cognisance of our security, then the US may decide to move its vital interests elsewhere.

delusiondestroyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120630502#Comment_120630502

Again...two things can be true at the same time, we are arguing multiple "hypothetical" scenarios.

Im not going to bother explaining why 1940s logic is irrelevant to today it should in all honesty be self explanatory.

What im saying is very simple to understand we are extremely extremely unlikely to be attacked in any fashion but in the off chance that we were attacked in unprovoked fashion then yes the US and UK would both intervene. Because of this attacking us would be a fruitless endeavor to start with and no nation would be dumb enough to attempt it without first dealing with the UK.

If Ireland never bought another bullet we would still receive aid from the US and its as simple as that.

You can try muddy the water as much as you like but it doesn't change the facts of what I am saying.

delusiondestroyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120630502#Comment_120630502

Like what do you thinks gonna happen? Some nation is gonna sail over a massive invasion force to Ireland and the UK and US are gonna be like

"Oh its ok they re just invading Ireland"

"Lets allow them to be taken over because they didnt spend enough on military defence"

"They havent got jets of there own lets not send ours and let them die"

When you actually take stock of the scenarios your proposing or even saying is possible they are really stupid.

Larbre34

Here, read this. Read it, especially Chapters 2-7 inc.

https://www.gov.ie/pdf/?file=https://assets.gov.ie/221085/6a8d1ccb-9cd1-4612-b109-2387c3369b1a.pdf#page=null

It was drawn up by, among others, the former Chief of Defence of the Kingdom of Norway, the former Director General of the EU Defence Staff and Director of Defence Planning for the Kingdom of Denmark, the Director of the Institute for Strategy at the Royal Danish Defence College and the former Chief of Staff of Óglaigh na hÉireann - the Irish Defence Forces.

They and their fellow Commission members have forgotten more about the strategic defence environment for small European coastal States in the 21st Century than you will ever know and had already debunked all of your spoofing and bullshyt before you ever uttered the words.

So read it, digest it, learn from it and please to be shutting up, ideally forever.

delusiondestroyer

Didn't read a word of the nonsense you wrote, nor will I! I have 0 interest in discussing anything with you based on your disgraceful previous comments.. do us all a favor and take your own advice.

RavenP

@delusiondestroyer

1. you did not address my question about why the strategic situation today is bdifferent from 1942, you said it was beneath you to answer, which of course means, you have no answer.
2. I did not say that no one would assist Ireland if it was invaded tomorrow, because it had not invested in its security. I made a more subtle point, which you clearly missed. I said that in a more dangerous world the US might consider changing its investment strategies in the light of Ireland not properly securing the environment within which they did business. A bit like I might not hire a unit in a business park if there was no night watchman on duty
3. I note you are refusing to take points from others, who have been no more condescending to you than you have to them.
4. And you clearly have no answer to the cogently argued points by Manic Moran.

Face it, to mix metaphors , your race is run, it is senior hurling now....

delusiondestroyer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120633306#Comment_120633306

1) Right ill state it once again... list any questions you want answered in a cohesive manner and ill answer them one condition though you must answer all questions i ask in return. Ill gladly educate you on why 1940's logic is irrelevant to 2023.

2) Ireland is the 3rd safest country in the world, is neutral, has low tax rates, has decade on decades without any major incident.. Your point is moot US business is going no where, also worth noting it would be down to individual companies not the US gov.

3) You might have no problem rubbing shoulders with people who mock special needs, I on the other hand carry myself with more class and completely disregard those people, nothing to do with the points made.

4) I have answered any point Manic Moran has brought up and in fairness to him he has made the same effort to any point I have brought up which is a lot more than can be said for the side stepping fence sitting tactics used by people like yourself.

You're still using cheap tactics and trying to garner the "support" of the thread to convince yourself your right. You operate in strawman's and splitting hairs mixed with backtracking rather than standing behind any point you make.

Your little metaphors are..."Water off a duck's back"

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120633216#Comment_120633216

Oh I didn't wish to enter into a discussion with you, believe me, but I am pleased my previous comments directed at all your evident flaws hit home.

I ask you not, in any case, to read a word of my composition on the matter, but rather the final report of the expert Commission on the Defence Forces, whose considered conclusions would disabuse any unfortunate reader that the hokum you emit has any relevance to the conversation.

And it's spelled 'favour'.