Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

roadmaster

Ger Aherne views on Air Policing

https://www.clare.fm/featured-2/former-defence-forces-general-believes-shannon-ideal-location-fighter-squadron-base/

Dohvolle

He's not wrong. Shannon is Perfect. Local residents used to noisy jet aircraft and helicopters at all hours, no large population centre under the runway approach at either side.

Larbre34

Indeed. He must be getting his talking points from here!

roadmaster

The former general mentioned €20 Million to run a year. Is that FA50 again?

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120751233#Comment_120751233

Could be Gripen?

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120751612#Comment_120751612

Not for 20 mil per year it isn't.

Payments on a lease of a squadron alone would be 20 mil. Or more like 100 mil.

If Aherne is talking about 'Air Policing' he means some half-assed solution, not QRA with modern interceptors.

Dohvolle

Operating costs?

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120751760#Comment_120751760

He said i think €350 million to buy the jets and then 20 million all in yearly to operate

saabsaab

Irish Air Corps top brash would consider the most likely aircraft model for Ireland to be the Swedish Saab Grippen aircraft. They would cost an estimated €58m each but that comes with a manufacturer maintenance programme.

Alamy Stock Photo Two Swedish Saab JAS-39 Gripen fighter jets escort a B-52H Stratofortress over Europe.

In briefing documents seen by The Journal, the cheapest running cost would be for eight aircraft at €18m

jonnybigwallet

Well.. I suppose if the government does anything at all it will most likely be a token force of 8 aircraft. Probably the most under-specced version of whatever they choose, which looks like a toss up between Gripen and FA50.

BTW....Been lookin at some coverage of the Paris Airshow. Some cracking gear on display there.

jd

Varadkar made a comment on fighters yesterday

https://www.newstalk.com/news/ireland-not-joining-nato-puts-additional-responsibility-on-us-varadkar-1479687

"I think a lot of the investments are going to be in things like primary radar... so that we can watch our own skies," he said. "Things like cyber security, for example... we don't have any plans to buy any aircraft carriers or fighter jets. I think for us to do that would be enormously expensive, and we might have five or six of them and it actually wouldn't make a huge difference in terms of our defence."

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120755285#Comment_120755285

…

Where the **** did aircraft carriers come into things?

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120755352#Comment_120755352

Probably a reply to PBP who convinced their followers that Ireland wants to buy aircraft carriers, tanks and fighter bombers....

jonnybigwallet

A very disappointing response from Varadkar. What the hell is the point in acquiring visibility over aircraft movements in or near sovereign airspace if there is no capability to follow through with an air policing / air interception initiative? And who the hell is he trying to kid when he says that a decent investment in the AC is not affordable? Nobody is going to want to join the AC if they don't get some proper kit....Its like a glorified flying club at the moment apart from the rotary wing and transport / surveillance elements! I'm afraid Irish politics is polluted with pacifism. No pride at all in the DF and all of the parties seem to regard it a a grown up version of the effing boy scouts!

EchoIndia

He is well-known for saying things "on the hoof" that are not thought through and which run counter to previously articulated policy. Why he does this, I don't know. Even though he is Taoiseach, I find it hard to take him seriously.

Larbre34

Varadkar is clearly very autistic and that makes him a poor communicator off the cuff.

Throwing away terms like 'aircraft carrier' will be grist to the mill of the tankies and so nobody in Government should ever say it, even in jest.

But he is right about half a dozen or eight fighter aircraft. It simply won't cut the mustard for a comprehensive QRA.

Anyway, no big deal, LoA3 will be a a matter for the next government and even if Fine Gael is in it, Varadkar won't be leading it.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120755922#Comment_120755922

8-12 aircraft won't be enough for everything but it is a presence and can fly the flag. It's a good start.

Larbre34

No, it isn't.

I've absolutely no time for a narrative of flying the flag. The DF servicemen and women deserve better than that and so does the taxpayer.

I'd like to think the transformation and implementation elements that are now part of the defence structure, would look at anything tokenistic and refuse it.

The Naval Service, as currently constituted, is an example of a presence that can fly the flag. But we all know its vessels are not equipped to modern naval standards and so, with all due respect to the rank and file, they are impotent.

Tokenism is exactly what the transformation agenda for the DF must move it very far away from.

Dohvolle

There is an old military phase, some may be familiar. 2 is 1 and 1 is none.

8 is a token amount. As we can see from the AW139, to keeps the air ambulance operational keep pilots trained and do any other job assigned we have 6. We are unable to do anything requiring more than 2 of type at a time.

We have 8 PC9M, which, when the gods are pleased, permits us to have a flypast of not more than 4 aircraft for the Silver Swallows.

A 24/7 QRA requires 4 aircraft. 2 up, 2 standby. Assume 50% availability and you'll need to have at least another 4 which will be in various states of maintenance.

You can't use the same 8 pilots all the time, so you'll need a similar amount to train the other flight.

So in case maths is not your strong point, we already have minimum 16.

And to keep all your pilots current, you need spare aircraft, so if someone needs hours, clearly they can't pull from the QRA, and they are not on the active squadron while they fly a desk so those aircraft are not available either. Best make them 2 seat, for training. Even to keep the squadron commander current as an instructor. It becomes 18-20 very quickly.

Look around at our neighbours who operate QRA how many aircraft of type

UK: 137

Norway: 40

Denmark:41

Germany: 146

Netherlands: 52

Belgium: 52

France: 102

Spain: 110

Portugal: 28

Austria: 15 (Neutral)

Switzerland: 30 (neutral)

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120756474#Comment_120756474

If we had QRA would you have the 4 aircraft on standby at the same base or would you have the two pairs at different Airports in case something happened at one airport such as an airliner getting stuck on the runway and blocking it

Larbre34

Ralph James said 16-20 aircraft, three years ago. And thats still how the maths shake out. Hard to argue with his knowledge of the situation.

I'd have estimated you'd need 3 trained pilots / rears for every active seat.

20 Aircraft, minus 2 in training role, minus 4 in maintenance rotation = 14 active airframes = 42 trained pilots.

Say 50 to allow for squadron leaders, operational rotation to staff officer / instructor / overseas postings.

Easily 150 enlisted personnel on top of that for type specific ground crew, ATC, fire and rescue, hangar techies, weapons techs and loaders, MPs for hangar and weapons security, mission support staff, tug and tanker operators etc etc

Easy to see why fielding a proper air force gets big quick.

Grassy Knoll

The money the general is talking about is relatively modest in the overall scheme of things. I think he addressed the “how about health “ question well and was fully realistic in terms of the timescale etc. I would contrast him as a person who knows something he is talking about vs our elected head of government who is increasingly being exposed as a spoofer IMHO.

Dohvolle

Ger Craughwell shared the details of the proposal on his LinkedIn page.

Its saying LCA of the FA50 type, though Gripen is mentioned as the ideal. Leasing is also mentioned. No quantity of aircraft though. I believe FA50 unit cost is about €30 - 40m.

Capital cost €350m, €20m per annum after covering all costs for a facility with a staff of 200 at all grades.

You might manage certain Air Policing duties, but you won't stand up a full QRA at that cost.

saabsaab

I doubt a current government will be willing to cover the cost of a full force 16+. The best number that I'd say would fly is 8-12 and it would be a fair start.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120757536#Comment_120757536

Assuming it would be a start and not the end?

jonnybigwallet

It looks like he has based the cost around a dozen FA 50 aircraft. Bear in mind the Pc9's are going to need replacement as well. Say 6 to 8 Pc21's or Tucanos.

roadmaster

Is Sinn Fein now suggesting we get fighter jets?

We in Sinn Féin want to rebuild our defence forces so that we can protect our neutrality, defend and monitor our skies and seas, and protect ourselves from modern threats, including cyber attack

https://www.thesun.ie/news/10934110/government-improve-capacity-defence-forces-embarrassment/amp

Dohvolle

Having heard them speak at the forum last week, there has been a massive shift of attitude from SF since the revelation about the RAF protecting the skies.

Their message now is we must invest in defence.

I guess, it would look bad for them to be in government while the "Crown forces" still protect our skies and waters...

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120762275#Comment_120762275

Looks bad for any Government.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120762364#Comment_120762364

Not familiar with the History of the state, are you?

1922 treaty prevented us from having our own navy, Brits did it, and held onto the Treaty ports until 1938.

Was 9 years later before the Navy was formed,

We relied on the RN and the RAF for search and rescue until the late 80s, and even then, RN SAR sea kings were frequent visitors to Cork, until HMCG civilianised all SAR.

This deal is in place, apparently since the 1950s. Put in place by a Government who's Taoiseach was a veteran of both 1916 and the War of Independence, who had fought on the Anti Treaty side during the civil war.