Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120866052#Comment_120866052

So 3 years after 9/11 we didn't need radar...

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120866193#Comment_120866193

Look they bought a few Bofors after that, surely that would stop anything, and we wouldn’t need radar cause any “alien” would phone up to tell us where they were and what they were planning. Makes total sense…

FFS, when you think of the economic climate at the time, a full radar set up would have been nothing.

Larbre34

So will it be the Gardaí or the Military Police who will be making an appointment with Deputy and former Minister O'Dea to discuss his violation of Part II, Section 4 Subsections 1-4 inc. of the Official Secrets Act?

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120866258#Comment_120866258

These are deeply unserious people.

Ben D Bus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120866465#Comment_120866465

Surely that only applies if it's an unauthorised leak. :)

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120866465#Comment_120866465

Now remember this is the man that picked up a sidearm and pointed it at a camera man to get a so called cool photo and then when challenged on what he did he Allegedly said to a journlist that the Army Man said it was ok to do

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120866513#Comment_120866513

Understatement of the year…

Larbre34

I'd generally be a luke warm supporter of the current Government, if only in preference to the alternative. And so the razor thin majority the Government does hold is important. But nonetheless they should nail O'Dea on this. Absolutely bolt him to the floor.

If nothing else it might make the unserious people a little more serious and it will also lay down a marker, lest the putative alternative Government get any ideas in the future.

expectationlost

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120866193#Comment_120866193

Irish narcissism displayed in this post.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120867099#Comment_120867099

What?

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120866465#Comment_120866465

The thing with willie is , his mouth has been shown in the past to be bigger than his brain. By making this statement he thinks he is poking the govt in the eye.

He was the decision maker. He is admitting his unsuitability for the role he held.

They say he'd like to see a heave against the current party leader, but he won't be doing it.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120866258#Comment_120866258

Don't forget the flycatchers and EL70 were 2nd hand. (not replaced when withdrawn from service in 2013 either).

LOA

Lack of Ambition.

banie01

Brazil is ramping up its military acquisition programme. Of note to us here is the doubling of their Saab Gripen E/NG fleet and, albeit a local buy for Brazil, a further 9 Embraer KC-390s, including developing Aerial Refuelling capability for the type.

https://www.defensenews.com/global/the-americas/2023/08/23/brazil-to-double-air-fleet-as-part-of-106-billion-investment/

The flexibility and capability of the Gripen NG has been a success in Brazilian service. the NG really is amongst the best bang for buck available and even the C/D that are becoming surplus due to the central European countries that are leasing them currently looking to F35 for their replacement.

On a tangent to our developing an Air policing capacity, surely the most urgent spend/Need we can address is the retention of experienced Officers and NCO's? Be it via re-enlist bonus, improved pay and conditions or reviewing the pension abatement situation for time-served members who re-enlist.

Given its 18months now since the Commission report was published. Its shocking that not only has there been very little concrete actions or indeed capital spending but, also that the DF are still haemorrhaging experienced personnel.

We desperately need our most experienced Soldiers/Sailors/Airmen to form the cadre of any improvements, and we need to ensure that our military services offer genuine career progress and potential.

100gSoma

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121042931#Comment_121042931

Well said @banie01

At this stage I think it will take an incident involving a commercial flight to underscore the requirement for a military radar and fast interceptors.

saabsaab

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121156123#Comment_121156123

Just today per journal.ie

DEFENCE OFFICIALS HAVE told Government that such is the scale of the primary radar project to monitor Irish skies and seas it will now not be delivered until 2028.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121160410#Comment_121160410

As much as we would like to think otherwise, this is probably a best case time scale and likely to slip. First the complete lack of knowledge we have, second the increased demand for defence investment across Europe leaves us likely far at the end of the queue, and lastly I’d lay odds any sites are going to face plenty of local/non local complaining and legal challenges.

If tomorrow the government put out an RFI at best you are talking about next year for a tender, and years to build whatever is selected.

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121160502#Comment_121160502

Plus this has the feeling of being a proect a bit bigger in scale than just slapping a radar dome on a hill in Donegal and calling it a day.

Dohvolle

I think the equipment is the easy bit here, the issue being figuring out who will monitor it 24/7/365 and to what end. Impossible, realistically to justify committing 30 or so soldiers, sailors or airmen to just watch the screens purely to report that an aircraft is in our airspace without transponder unless we have some purpose to said monitoring.

Have these people other ATC functions, nationally? Have they the training to divert other aircraft away from transponderless contact? In the absence of an air policing response, does it even need to be a military task?

Markcheese

Wherever the radar units actually go , theyll need some level of security, even if just to keep out some looper with an ax

At a minimum some fencing , and alarms cameras ,ect

If you're going to have an alarm ,you need some way to respond to it ,and by nature ,on top of a mountain is very remote , again at a minimum ,a road will be needed to get to the top , and obviously power source (wind and solar ? ) and back up, which is probably diesel , which would need fuel ..

so now you're build a road , fencing , generator and control buildings ,wind and solar facilities, in a "wild " environment thats going to need proper planning , environmental impact studies ect ect ,

Are you going to need facilities for people up there , ?

Could be a couple of years just getting planning and construction,

tinytobe

Ireland isn't entirely unprotected regarding airspace. Anybody may correct this statement or opninion.

As far as I know Irish air defences regarding fighter jets is contracted to the British RAF. I have noted once or twice that the British RAF would fly over Irish air space, in case that the Russians were coming a bit closer, and testing the system.

Whether that's all known to the wider general public in Ireland is unknown to me. All I know is that it's happening, - official contracts I've never seen, but I am sure, they do exist.

This isn't entirely unusual, Slovenia is covering their air defences with fighter jets from Italy, - but they are both in NATO.

Apart from that, I would and have always advocated a small Irish air force with fighter jets, even if it's as small as 5 or 6 jets. Yes, this would come at a cost, but so does policing or the fire department.

jonnybigwallet

5 or 6 is not enough. 18 is more like it to cover planes in maintenance and losses due to attrition etc and to provide some strength in depth.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163296#Comment_121163296

You read the first post and just dived straight in, didn't you?

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163601#Comment_121163601

Why do you ask?

I am aware of the posts.

I am also aware of the Pilatus planes.

Yes, that's my opinion on that one.

I also disagree with neutrality and would rather Ireland would join NATO.

Without an air force with fighter jets and having the RAF taking care of Irish air space, the sheer concept of neutrality is non existent.

Yes, for the sake of democracy and free speech some people and politicians seem to like neutrality.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163377#Comment_121163377

You've been paying attention in class.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163296#Comment_121163296

Have you noticed the RAF fly over Irish airspace indeed?

How?

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121163255#Comment_121163255

Defence installations don't need planning permission.

The Minister advises the Government that his military advice is location X,Y etc and Cabinet approve it, or they do not. End of planning.

But in practice its most likely that the primary radar arrays will be co-located with existing civilian infrastructure anyway and so any new disruption to green field locations will be minimal.

Overall this means delivery times will be mostly dependent on the manufacturers ability to deliver in a period when they are absolutely swamped for new builds.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121164147#Comment_121164147

While you aren’t wrong can you imagine the response if they just went ahead and stuck up some new installations? Even if they are collocated I expect the grab bag of usual BS artists protesting and impeding things.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121164110#Comment_121164110

https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/commentary/irish-airspace-and-waters-remain-europes-open-flank

https://news.sky.com/story/irish-ministers-under-pressure-to-clarify-secret-deal-for-raf-to-defend-irelands-airspace-in-an-emergency-12879084

https://www.irishtimes.com/world/uk/2023/06/03/raf-lossiemouth-the-british-military-airbase-that-protects-irish-skies/

It may be hard to accept for some, but Irish neutrality is a joke and a very bad one.

Either it's a better funded military and decent fighter jets or joining NATO and contracting air defence out to another NATO country.

There is no real need for "open secrets".

Do we need a fire department in Ireland if there is so much rain anyway?

sparky42

Apologies to @mupper2 its actually not far off the Journal.

RavenP

@tinytobe I partly agree with you. I think Ireland does need to adopt a credible defence posture. It is only partly credible, on land, stretching credulity at sea, and entirely not credible in the air. This should change. I do not agree that Ireland has to join NATO. I think that Ireland would not gain much from that, and Ireland's positioning as a western nation "not like all the rest" would be weakened. Regarding the deal with the RAF, the problem is we know very little about it, apart from the fact that it exists. The original de Valera era deal presumably covered some kind of world war. The 9/11 era revamping seem perhaps only to have covered a unresponsive commercial flight. Some of the journalistic articles on this are very poor and show no real understanding of defence. Lossiemouth does intercept Bear bombers that stray into Irish controlled airspace (which is a civil aviation concept- not a military one), but the Bears have NEVER crossed into Irish sovereign airspace, a very different thing. Likewise the RAF have never, as far as anyone knows, crossed into Irish sovereign airspace, although they have entered Irish controlled airspace. Also in no way are the Bear bombers threatening or testing Irish airspace or air defences. They are probing Britain's. So it is disingenuous at best to say thaht Lossiemouth is defending Ireland, it is defending Britain. Two other things to note here: 1. The RAF is not what it was. It has only about 100 combat aircraft, there are pilot and tech shortages, and worst of all, although the RAF have multirole aircraft, most pilots are not qualified for more than one role and struggle to keep up their flying hours even on that. It is doubtful that the UK could defend Ireland even if it wanted to. 2. The UK is not the stable partner it used to be. Hopefully its moment of madness is over but would you really want the Tory Juntas of the last few years in charge of any aspect of anything to do with Ireland? So lets get the radars built and maintain a credible force of 20 or 30 4th gen fighters.