Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121164775#Comment_121164775

My opinion I shared are actually two opinions. I don't expect that everyone would agree.

Military is often not there to attack, but more to show presence and be serious about it. Those who want to maintain peace need do just enough to prepare for war, but never start a war.

I am also in understanding of the political as well as historical significance of joining NATO as well as the British role in NATO.

The British will always have some form of stigma in Ireland, from a historical point of view.

However Ireland will have do do something for the future regarding air defences, no matter if neutrality or joining NATO will be on the table.

If Ireland continues to insist on neutrality, Ireland would have to do something more than now. That would mean having fighter jets for the Air Corps to be serious about neutrality and Irish sovereignty. Otherwise Irish neutrality is just a plain and open joke, not even an open secret and the Russians will be the first ones laughing out loudly.

If Ireland was to join NATO and decide for some other NATO country to take care of Ireland it wouldn't automatically have to be the RAF to protect Irish air space, it could also be the French, - they are nearly equally close and France certainly doesn't have the stigma the British have.....

Or suppose that there was an Irish RAF, under Irish command, with Britsh pilots? It's a bit easier to sell to the Irish public, British pilots under Irish command.

Even with EU membership there is some kind of military support network agreed, one country being attacked, others coming to help in whatever way shape or form. With NATO membership that would be stronger and better defined, whether it's necessary would be up for debate.

What's certainly no real long term choice are those propeller Pilatus aircrafts the Irish Air Corps currently has while keeping it from the general public or out of public discourse that the RAF would do at least some of the response work, if the Russians are in Irish air space.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121164775#Comment_121164775

Watching the RAF show on TV lately showed just how bad things are in the RAF. More than once aircraft about to go on a shout went u/s at the last minute.

RavenP

@tinytobe No one should be under any illusion that joining NATO would be a cheap option. Nato would insist on significant increases in the DoDo budget, at the very least a doubling of current. Also if Ireland was to come under a NATO air defence shield, Ireland would be expected to bring something to the table, to specialist in something. Irish mechanised infantry in Germany, or the Baltics or something similar would be the price. There are no easy options, but yes, I agree, if Ireland is really neutral it will have to step up to the mark defence wise.

Psychlops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121166567#Comment_121166567

Eh hello, Iceland..

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121166567#Comment_121166567

The sad thing is that freedom isn't for free, it does come at a cost, and for most who love the status quo in Ireland is that freedom is only missed once it's taken away. Now one can start the debate on "who would want to invade Ireland.....".

You can rest assured Putin and his agents do have a dossier on Ireland and the defence capabilities and they are reading here as well, - hungry for information.

One can also scrap the fire department, why should there be a fire in Ireland, as it rains so often.

Defence spending in Ireland is even worse than in Austria and that does mean something and that isn't positive.

Ireland would have to come clean with the public and face the music, delare publicly the contracts they have with the RAF, or focus on real neutrality and buy fighter planes and or have a public discourse of a possible NATO membership.

RavenP

@Psychlops Iceland have a population not much bigger than Derry. They are too small even to make a contribution in a single sector. But they have a nice mid-Atlantic position.

tinytobe

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167314#Comment_121167314

They have no military, but are in NATO. It's their nice mid-Atlantic position with is naturally of interest. The US had a base in Keflavik, which is now not used. As far as I know they would return, if things turn uglier.

bear1

Surely the planes we have now must be coming close to their end of life span?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167639#Comment_121167639

Not really given their flight hours and the fact that one of them is a replacement, I’d still bet that they are going to be flying past 2030 easy.

bear1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167645#Comment_121167645

Spiffing

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167657#Comment_121167657

Again, just look at our procurement rates, even for fairly basic buys. If we were serious about the notational 2025 date we would be well into procurement at this point, if it’s 2030 then I would say around 2025 they may start talking about maybe an RFI, longer it goes the further into the 2030s.

roadmaster

The most inportant procurement we need right now for the air corps is not fighters but a replacement for the 139 fleet

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167842#Comment_121167842

Pretty much, but not just replacement but enlargement, though sadly it looks like being maritime capable is still not going to be needed.

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167842#Comment_121167842

We could really use a couple of larger helos to go along with whatever replaces the 139's, EH-101 sized at least

jonnybigwallet

Something capable of operating off the proposed MRV and any future OPV's etc seems logical.

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121168306#Comment_121168306

I'm doubting the MRV will ever be a thing in the NS now, but yes something for future possibly larger OPVs would be nice.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121168255#Comment_121168255

Must have been a squeeze in the 139 fastroping onto the ship the other day.

jonnybigwallet

That's what I was thinkin as well. Not sure what the best choice would be?

Would probably be supported now that the ARU have again proved their value.

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121168630#Comment_121168630

They had at least 16 Rangers on board the ship so a tight squeeze

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121168940#Comment_121168940

The 2nd 139 that was providing cover fire id needed proably had some of that 16. They also didnt need full kit just rifle and ammo as they where in cork within a few hours.

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121169209#Comment_121169209

There were more then 20 delivered by those 2 helos, some were below deck in the engine spaces etc plus they had heavy breaching kit, consaws, one lad seemed to have a exothermic cutting rig, etc with them...tight fit in a 139 whichever way you look at it.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121169312#Comment_121169312

I don't suppose anyone with a say on spending might notice that?

Dohvolle

Most likely, first drop secured the pilot latter/gangway so the rest could board by RHIP?

mupper2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121170462#Comment_121170462

Yeah that's possible, but they still had to drop a fair amount of lads with kit on the initial fast rope.

Psychlops

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121167314#Comment_121167314

Just like our position in Europe.

RavenP

@Psychlops the difference is our neighbours think we are big enough and rich enough to start making a contribution. So joining NATO would not save us money, we would be expected to spend more on defence, where as Iceland can, slip under the radar, so to speak.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121179608#Comment_121179608

They do that because that's what we've led them to believe with our ambitious GDP figures for years, that included every brass plate in D1, 2, 3 and 4.

Our actual output could put us much closer to Iceland's economy.

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121181201#Comment_121181201

I’m sorry but WTAF? Icelands GDP for 2021 from google was $25 billion, even with all the multinational activity stripped out and using the most conservative measure of the Irish economy we are at least 10 times if not more than that.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121181211#Comment_121181211

The more accurate representation of how healthy our economy is, how wealthy we are is a combination of Tax returns and industrial output. If we compared that to other EU states we have a better account of our true place in the worlds economy. The GDP does not do that.

However if you look at Tax collected as a % of GDP, Ireland does not do well at all. We collect about 22% of GDP, Iceland collects 35%, EU Average is 41%, Euro area is 42%. So the problem is we claim to be a wealthy country, allowing multinationals to do well by having an office here, however we are bottom of the league when it comes to collecting our fare share of their profits.

Markcheese

The main reason that iceland is in Nato the

Greenland -iceland-uk gap , ( with the faroe islands ) Irelands posistion isnt really all that important..