Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

jonnybigwallet

TA50 trainer

FA50 light multirole fighter

tippilot

I think we may have to face the reality that the know-how for operating a front line fighter simply does not exist here and that we may be a generation of operating a fighter evolved trainer away from acquiring that capability.

While the M346FA wouldn't have the speed or range to perform QRA, it would allow the building up of skills over a decade or so in the organisation in order to allow the longer term purchase of a more capable type. There's a learning curve there and we can't just jump to the top of it. Think of things like air to air missiles, radar(AESA), guided air to ground weapons, BVR, IFR, Electronic warfare. The baseline capability is literally zero.

jonnybigwallet

Very fair assessment. Not only from a flying point of view but maintenance and other support skills.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121210776#Comment_121210776

This.

We only have recent experience working with modern ejector seats or G suits, no experience of inboard cannon since the Vampires were retired almost 50 years ago, ZERO experience of air to air missiles. Zero experience of afterburning turbofans. Nothing with IFF.

An organisational reluctance to deploy beyond Casement (Athlone doesn't count because its probably closer to where most of the Air Corps are commuting from anyway.)

We need to walk before we can run, and we haven't mastered crawling yet.

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121209988#Comment_121209988

What other type in service today would you expect the FA50 to defeat in air-to-air combat?

Cos if I were in a Mig-29 or an SU-35 or a J-20, I'd laugh my absolute ass off to see one coming for me.

jonnybigwallet

Grow up.

roadmaster

In fairness the M346 can go supersonic if it has no attachments on it and if dives from a really really high height

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121211258#Comment_121211258

When was the last time A Mig 29, SU-35 or J-20 flew in, or near Irish sovereign airspace?

jonnybigwallet

Exactly! The bear is the one that needs to be sent on its way. And a pair of FA50'S would do the job nicely.

I suggest 4 TA50 trainers initially to get the lads up to speed and then a dozen FA50's a couple of years later.

A ready made airforce for just sat of a billion quid. Would get 30 years out of it, and probably a bit of loose change left behind the sofa for a couple of helicopters.

RavenP

@Larbre34 There is some merit in what you say. What real defensive bang do you get for your buck with the FA-50 or M346FA? We will spend a billion and comit to maybe 100-150 million a year to maintain the basic intercept capability, but how much more secure will Ireland be for that? Dohvoille and Tippilot make fair points about building up experience, but s a non aviator, is an FA-50 not about 90% of the way to an F16 or Grippen, in terms of learning curve, already?. In a sense, all defence procurement is, for most coutries outside very active zones, a protection against unlikely, but not impossible events. But as it stands at present Bears are NEVER, straying into Irish airspace! Also, as JonnyBW points out, Mig29s and J20s are never in our airspace either. But the truth is, if there was ever a real possibility that Bears might deliberately enter Irish airspace we would be in a scenario where other combat aircraft entering our airspace would be a very real possibility. If we are beginning to get serious about defence, we need to think about this, as the idea that we only need a few jets to ward off Bears that are really interested in probing UK and not Irish airspace seems to me to be us doing the UK's job for them. I think BTW that we do need much better air defences, but we should be doing so in a way that best defends Ireland, and our partners / allies, but with the emphasis on Ireland.

banie01

There are huge capability gaps to be bridged by our Air Corps when the time comes to choose what we fly.

As has been pointed out ejector seats, turbofans, modern avionics and multiple other maintenance routines to be learned before we put any plane up.

I disagree strongly with us buying LiFT or advanced trainer aircraft. Our pilot training can and I really feel should be outsourced. There are multiple militaries already undertaking that path.

The impending leap of our air corps from turboprop to turbojet, is the kind of leap that one often associates with 3rd world militaries. Buying shiny and bright new toys that gradually become unusable without support, training and parts. It's a well known trope in the AV geek world. Usually backed up by examples of F5 or Mig21 in service of piss poor countries.

My own take on how to avoid our spend becoming a white elephant? Is still as I've repeated often here, a partnership with one of our EU neighbours. If we take the Gripen as our airframe? We partner up with Sweden and have them deploy a detachment to SNN. Our ground crew train with the Swedes and learn to support and maintain the airframe.

Our pilots do basic and selection training here, on the Pilatus and whatever replaces it. Once the pilots are streamed into Fast Jets V everything else? We send the fast jet trainees to Sweden or avail of the other military flight schools(Given that Bae are still involved with SAAB, even the UK).

Given we are at the very most going to buy 16 airframes, and likely less? I firmly hold the opinion that our standing up and equipping a flight training cadre for such a small group, is reinventing the wheel. We have the opportunity to learn from experts. It offers us access to top quality training immediately along with the economy of scale available with sharing the training resources.

The money we will need to lay out to ensure we can at least police our airspace is a large wad. Likely €1billion upfront and €100 million a year in operating costs. I'd rather as much of that money as possible goes towards the pointy end. We do that via partnering with allies and using those partnerships to full advantage for training, co-basing and secondments.

RavenP

@banie01 I think 16 is a minimum, but I agree with a lot of what you say. At least initially as much should be done by experienced contractors as possible. In time the Air Corps / Air Force, may take on more of thse roles, but initially we need to get up and running on so many fronts, so quickly, there will have to be some expertise bought in.

jonnybigwallet

Isn't it a bit of a leap of faith to assume another nation is able and willing to help out?

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121213818#Comment_121213818

Good points, well made, however to do so would also require a cultural shift within the Air Corps (and possibly the Defence Forces). Swedish gripen pilots went to a gripen squadron as soon as they qualified on the type, they remain with that squadron until they retire or are promoted out. There is no rotation out after 2 years to be i/c janitorial stores & recruit training.

Thats the way they do it. That's how they build experience. That's why it would be near impossible to "slot in" to a Swedish unit protecting our skies to learn the ropes. That's why SAAB have test pilots doing exactly that in Brazil at present. Building up the culture of operating fast jets can take up to a generation to achieve. Thats why NZ Skyhawk pilots all moved to OZ when their jets were wadied, and the replacement cancelled. Because a Fast Jet pilot at the peak of his or her experience can't suddenly transition to flying PC7s or P-3s.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121214092#Comment_121214092

Not at all. It's a very common means of building capabilities. Fighter sales are big business, Govt to Govt sales. Everything that can be done to facilitate those type of sales and transfers is done.

It's why so many privately contracted maintainers are in Saudi and other gulf states. Prior to that, the USSR was very fond of lending "advisors" along with their Monkey variants and why any nation that got Sov spec, was also awash with technical staff. The US, UK, Russia, France and other airframe exporters all have done similarly.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121214145#Comment_121214145

A fair point on keeping the pilot cadre congruent and qualified, particularly as the entire basis of successful fighter missions is the 2 ship & 4 ship formations. Building comradeship and élan is vital and that's done by keeping crews and squadrons together.

SAAB have put a lot of effort into the Brazilian training programme. It gives a great onward career path for Swedish instructors. Even the UK ETPS has gone private and is now run by Qinetiq. Developing our requirements to align with the fast jet training options available in EU is a means of Ireland ensuring we get best bang for buck.

The pilot and maintainer training is a huge part of any sales pitch that the manufacturers will make. All the main manufacturers will seek to offer either worthwhile training that will develop our own training cadre, or they will try and sell their ground care package alà Saudi, which is I feel the wrong route to set our hat on. If we can provide our maintainers and pilots the challenge of good equipment and more importantly, pay them properly! We can build a service that folks can once again feel proud to join and one that offers a career.

100gSoma

Speaking of high speed jets.... supersonic flight from Lossiemouth to no doubt identify a zombie flight off Donegal. Flights with no transponder flying across and through civil aviation routes pose a threat to commercial aircraft and need to be identified and shadowed out of civilian airspace. Regardless of the politics - that fact holds true.

Larbre34

Was that yoke really pulling Mach 1.4 over Lough Swilly and north Donegal?

100gSoma

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121219179#Comment_121219179

It's hard to know. However, it did cover 275km from Donegal to Scotland in 8.5minutes which is about 1,925kph or 1039 knots which is still Mach 1.5. But the ADSB data may be completely wrong.

jonnybigwallet

About as fast as the FA50 then! Not bad!

Larbre34

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121219612#Comment_121219612

Sounds like corroboration. Mind you, the supercruise speed rating is Mach 1.5 so it makes sense.

For Jonny's benefit, the FA50 is out of puff at 1,850 km/h, the Typhoon will go all the way to 2,500.

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121220524#Comment_121220524

And the Leonardo yoke, empty, in a dive, with a tailwind??

Larbre34

Breaks apart at Mach 1.2.

Realistically it will top out at 44% the speed of a Typhoon FGR4.

Making it a beyond hilarious suggestion for air policing and QRA.

tippilot

Seems it was an ADSB error. Aircraft's actual track was nowhere near Donegal. Putting that info together with zero reports of sonic booms in the far north I think we can safely say: Myth Busted.

100gSoma

https://twitter.com/EISNspotter/status/1711811697411809466?s=19

just saw that myself now... thanks

sparky42

The court case continues:

https://twitter.com/gavreilly/status/1712413492223803658

Dohvolle

The minister was cranky enough yesterday because we didn't celebrate the extra few million in the defence budget.

Imagine how he'll be when he realises he can't put off securing our airspace any more?

sparky42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227887#Comment_121227887

Assuming of course that the government loses its case…

I assume apart from being grumpy he will just make it a formal agreement before the Daíl, he’s made it clear spending money on the DF is the last thing the DF needs.

Dohvolle

In my mind I see his reaction at the news this afternoon worthy of a "downfall" re-edit, but I lack the time and talent for it.

"Ungrateful shower, I have them an extra €50m, and this is the thanks I get? That little bollix berry needs to learn some manners, I'm not afraid of him! I used to be a teacher in Cork! Thats far worse than anything he faced in the ARW!"

"Minister"

"And RACO1 How dare they criticise me? Don't they want to get promoted?"

"Minister, er..."

"At least the RAF will keep covering our skies for the forseeable and we can forget about that radar nonsense, let along the Fighter jets Craughwell wants so much"

"Minister.. Craughwell"

"What did he do? I thought he was no longer a problem after he became a TERF"

"Minister the High Court has agreed that his case needs to be heard. They say Having the RAF protect our skies may be unconstitutional."

"Is OK, we can use the "for security reasons" excuse.

"Minister, the High court has already said they will hear the evidence "In-Camera". That means In secret."

"I know what it means you gobshite! I was a Teacher!" We can keep this quiet. Nobody cares about this..."

"Minister, a Delegation from SAAB, Lockheed Martin and Leonardo are outside the door and want to speak to you..."

Dohvolle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227915#Comment_121227915

When constitutional matters go to the high court, there are usually 2 outcomes.

1. State wins, they close the loophole that got them there in the first place. Hard to see how you do this without an amendment to the constitution.
2. State loses, followed by reluctant, but inevitable government action. Unless they go to Supreme court.

banie01

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121227887#Comment_121227887

Given the rate of inflation? The Govt hasn't even increased the budget to allow the DF to stand still, let alone undertake the capital acquisition and wage & pension reform needed to address recruitment and manpower issue.

The Govt say the support and LOA2+, yet the defence forces are still backsliding and falling below even LOA1.