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Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

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    #1052
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    shaveAbullock wrote: »
    Since we are an Island would the money not be better spent on the navy?

    We need both. But appropriate to the mission.


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    #1053
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    kravmaga wrote: »
    Id agree with another poster that the former Cityjet aircraft should be maintained by Air Corps and kept in flight during the current Covid-19 crisis.

    A very useful resource to have.

    https://flyinginireland.com/2020/04/interim-examiner-appointed-to-cityjet/

    Why not just contract the same capability from the commercial airlines sitting ideal. If we needed it.


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    #1054
    shaveAbullock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭shaveAbullock


    beauf wrote: »
    We need both. But appropriate to the mission.

    But since we are unable or unwilling to pay for a functional air corps would it not be better to use the resources on the navy?


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    #1055
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    shaveAbullock wrote: »
    But since we are unable or unwilling to pay for a functional air corps would it not be better to use the resources on the navy?

    We do have functional airforces.

    But it's function isn't to fight WW3 or play chicken with Russian bombers for 80yrs.


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    #1056
    shaveAbullock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭shaveAbullock


    beauf wrote: »
    We do have functional airforces.

    But it's function isn't to fight WW3 or play chicken with Russian bombers for 80yrs.

    I did ask on here already what the current military role is of the air corps and was told that it was for ground operations in the Lebanon.
    Is the Lebanon the only current active military operation of the air corps?
    shaveAbullock wrote: »
    After a member of of the air corps has completed training what is the be most important military role that they could then be assigned to?
    Heraldoffreeent wrote: »
    Groundpounding in the Leb.


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    #1057
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    It's on the website as are the roles for the aircraft types.

    https://www.military.ie/en/who-we-are/air-corps/the-fleet/


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    #1058
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    shaveAbullock wrote: »
    I did ask on here already what the current military role is of the air corps and was told that it was for ground operations in the Lebanon.
    Is the Lebanon the only current active military operation of the air corps?

    Well it's a forum you'll get all kinds of answers.


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    #1059
    shaveAbullock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭shaveAbullock


    It seems I have misunderstood, my understanding was that the PC-9M was just for training and the the pilot would progress onto a an active role in another aircraft.

    But the PC-9M is listed as having a role in close air support. Can you give examples of where it may be used for this?


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    #1060
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Something like this.

    https://theaviationist.com/2018/11/09/watch-slovenian-air-force-pilatus-pc-9m-turboprops-perform-mock-dogfights-fly-ultra-low-level-and-drop-bombs/

    Most military forces have some form of air support. They would be also be useful for coastal and naval work too.


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    #1061
    shaveAbullock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭shaveAbullock


    shaveAbullock wrote: »
    After a member of of the air corps has completed training what is the be most important military role that they could then be assigned to?
    Heraldoffreeent wrote: »
    Groundpounding in the Leb.
    beauf wrote: »
    Something like this.

    https://theaviationist.com/2018/11/09/watch-slovenian-air-force-pilatus-pc-9m-turboprops-perform-mock-dogfights-fly-ultra-low-level-and-drop-bombs/

    Most military forces have some form of air support. They would be also be useful for coastal and naval work too.

    Interesting, I didn't realise they did missions like that.
    Would the PC-9M usually be deployed with the rest of the defence forces on overseas peacekeeping missions?


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    #1062
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    I'm not sure overseas deployments was ever part of the remit. Not that they couldn't do it. They could contract out the logistics. But you'd have to train and practise it. I don't think there had been the budget or the appetite for that. Or the wear and year and potential losses even in accidents that would arise.

    We've certainly been in places where some air resources would have been very useful.


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    #1063
    shaveAbullock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭shaveAbullock


    So is the PC-9M used to support the navy and Gardai or does it run independent operations domestically?
    Some on here claim it is only a trainer but I don't know what the training is in preparation for.


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    #1064
    Stovepipe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    The Air Corps have asked repeatedly to be allowed to operate on overseas UN missions as an actual air arm,ie using aircraft for supply and protection missions and this has always been denied by the DoD and the Dept of Finance. Some airmen and officers began going on UN missions (the leb,mostly)since the early 90s and more frequently since having an overseas trip under one's belt was effectively made a condition of reenlistment.
    Training on the PC-9 is designed to equip pilots to fly in modern aircraft like the Casa because the technology (turboprop engines and electronic instrumentation) is similar and the helicopters have similar tech and the newest aircraft have even better electronics. Gunnery is part of the syllabus because they are soldiers first and pilots second and the potentialalways exists that they may have to fire weapons in anger in defence of the State or to assist the Army or Navy.


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    #1065
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    shaveAbullock wrote: »
    So is the PC-9M used to support the navy and Gardai or does it run independent operations domestically?
    Some on here claim it is only a trainer but I don't know what the training is in preparation for.

    I'm not sure what your driving at tbh. It's a compromised solution to match a compromised budget and objectives.


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    #1066
    shaveAbullock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭shaveAbullock


    beauf wrote: »
    I'm not sure what your driving at tbh. It's a compromised solution to match a compromised budget and objectives.

    I'm just not sure what it's main operational role is.
    Some claim it's just a trainer and if so what would a pilot progress to next?
    If it's more than a trainer what other purpose does it serve?

    I'm just getting different answers from different posters so it's confusing.


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    #1067
    NewSigGuy
    Registered Users Posts: 179 ✭✭NewSigGuy


    Stovepipe wrote: »
    The Air Corps have asked repeatedly to be allowed to operate on overseas UN missions as an actual air arm,ie using aircraft for supply and protection missions and this has always been denied by the DoD and the Dept of Finance. Some airmen and officers began going on UN missions (the leb,mostly)since the early 90s and more frequently since having an overseas trip under one's belt was effectively made a condition of reenlistment.
    Training on the PC-9 is designed to equip pilots to fly in modern aircraft like the Casa because the technology (turboprop engines and electronic instrumentation) is similar and the helicopters have similar tech and the newest aircraft have even better electronics. Gunnery is part of the syllabus because they are soldiers first and pilots second and the potentialalways exists that they may have to fire weapons in anger in defence of the State or to assist the Army or Navy.

    Kinda of a circular argument though, the PC-9 is designed as a lead in fighter trainer, as the AC does not operate Fighter aircraft and is unlikely to do so, the PC-9 is Kinda a stand alone asset.
    Hence the desire to make it more "useful".

    The gunnery training is fun I'm sure, but is of little or no military value.


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    #1068
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    NewSigGuy wrote: »
    ...
    The gunnery training is fun I'm sure, but is of little or no military value.

    That's not true it's useful in its other roles. Coin, close support, patrol, reconnaissance etc.


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    #1069
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    shaveAbullock wrote: »
    I'm just not sure what it's main operational role is.
    Some claim it's just a trainer and if so what would a pilot progress to next?
    If it's more than a trainer what other purpose does it serve?

    I'm just getting different answers from different posters so it's confusing.

    It's primary role is a trainer but it can be used in other roles.


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    #1070
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Counter-insurgency_aircraft

    This thread however wants a fighter.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighter_aircraft

    But no one's willing to pay for it. Boo boo.


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    #1071
    NewSigGuy
    Registered Users Posts: 179 ✭✭NewSigGuy


    beauf wrote: »
    That's not true it's useful in its other roles. Coin, close support, patrol, reconnaissance etc.

    Maybe possible to fulfill those roles in an integrated force structure, however they are not the roles it was bought for and are not stated capabilities or missions that the AC requires the aircraft for.


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    #1072
    shaveAbullock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭shaveAbullock


    NewSigGuy wrote: »
    Maybe possible to fulfill those roles in an integrated force structure, however they are not the roles it was bought for and are not stated capabilities or missions that the AC requires the aircraft for.

    If if does not fulfill a military role it is only a trainer. But perhaps it has flown missions we are unaware of.

    What I want to know is that if it is only a trainer, what do the pilots progress on it? What exactly are they training for?


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    #1073
    Stovepipe
    Registered Users Posts: 2,979 ✭✭✭Stovepipe


    they are training to fly more complex aircraft,such as the Casa, learjet and the helicopters. It's a trainer so they have to learn instrument flight skills as well as gunnery,aerobatics, formation flight and the function of being a flight leader, formation commander and later, as flight instructors.


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    #1074
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    NewSigGuy wrote: »
    Maybe possible to fulfill those roles in an integrated force structure, however they are not the roles it was bought for and are not stated capabilities or missions that the AC requires the aircraft for.

    They have 4 hard points and rockets and guns. They practise firing these at ground targets. Maybe someone should tell they can't do this.


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    #1075
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    shaveAbullock wrote: »
    If if does not fulfill a military role it is only a trainer. But perhaps it has flown missions we are unaware of.

    What I want to know is that if it is only a trainer, what do the pilots progress on it? What exactly are they training for?

    They don't only use it as a trainer.

    Pilots need to maintain their flying skills, they need an aircraft to do this.


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    #1076
    shaveAbullock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭shaveAbullock


    Thanks for the replies, I think I have a better understanding now.


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    #1077
    pidgeoneyes
    Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭pidgeoneyes


    If, in time, the government of the day saw fit to improve the Air Corps' combat capabilities would modern COIN aircraft like the Super Tucano be a possibility?

    Operating in somewhere like Mali (low threat, well to aircraft anyway), it would allow Irish pilots provide support to Irish troops on the ground. A reasonably cost effective way to enhance the Air Corps combat capabilities.

    Although in the short term, a primary radar system, proper military helicopters and larger transport aircraft would be money better spent.

    But with the mess the economy is going to be in now, the DF budget is going to get hammered!


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    #1078
    shaveAbullock
    Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭shaveAbullock


    pidgeoneyes wrote: »

    But with the mess the economy is going to be in now, the DF budget is going to get hammered!

    Do you think some of the current fleet may be taken out of service with no replacement?

    It's not something I see the general public being overly concerned about and that's the type of cutback they will be looking for.


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    #1079
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,648 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Not everyone here agrees lots of different opinions.

    A lot of people thought it was a strange aircraft to buy at the time. Some think they need something more advanced. Something they need something more general purpose.

    Airforces around the world change their minds on this stuff all the time.


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    #1080
    pidgeoneyes
    Registered Users Posts: 136 ✭✭pidgeoneyes


    shaveAbullock wrote: »
    Do you think some of the current fleet may be taken out of service with no replacement?

    It's not something I see the general public being overly concerned about and that's the type of cutback they will be looking for.

    The Air Corps actually hasn't done too bad lately equipment wise. Three PC12s due shortly along with the recent order for two C295s. The PC9s aren't due to be replaced until 2025 at least so we'll see.

    But cutting the DF budget won't see a government loosing many seats in an election.


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    #1081
    sparky42
    Registered Users Posts: 3,946 ✭✭✭sparky42


    pidgeoneyes wrote: »
    The Air Corps actually hasn't done too bad lately equipment wise. Three PC12s due shortly along with the recent order for two C295s. The PC9s aren't due to be replaced until 2025 at least so we'll see.

    But cutting the DF budget won't see a government loosing many seats in an election.


    Don't forget the fourth PC12 we've picked up that's already seeing hours put up. That being said the PC9 replacement is without question going to be in the 2030's at best, remember one of them is virtually new and with the flight hour cut backs during the last crash I'd say their hours are well below replacement.


    The main area I see is the MRV for the Navy, it's the next "big ticket" item to come up and I could easily see the DOD sidelining it for as long as possible.


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