Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

Larbre34

'Ah shure lookit', as they say.

Its progress in that you couldn't get a Defence official in this Country to even say 'fighter jet' or any variation thereof, without choking on it. Just to see it as an objective on an official document is something.

Simon Coveney in particular has on occasion mentioned the urgency of acquiring a primary military radar to lay the ground work for a decent air defence. If by this evening we have (as rumoured) a new Dept of Defence and Security covering the Defence Forces, Garda, Prison Service, Strategic Threat Assessment Centre and all the Intelligence arms (with Courts and law reform hived off) then we'll know that a serious focus at the highest level is on defence needs.

My own completely uninformed take on things is that Brexit and Russia and Cyberattacks are forcing serious conversations with EU and PfP partners about being able to look after our back yard, which is a hugely strategic important zone for Europe as a whole. Might we being softened up for the placement of fighter squadrons in Ireland with bi-lateral agreements, from perhaps Sweden or Finland or France? I'd be shocked if someone hasn't had the conversation in a Brussels hallway.

sparky42

roadmaster wrote: »

Feck it let's go all in for a squadron of Rafales. We can do a PCP with the French government and in 3 years time if we cant keep up with the repayments we I'll hand the keys back

Given the T&C's they are offering some nations I wouldn't be surprised if they would happily flog some of them...

banie01

roadmaster wrote: »

Feck it let's go all in for a squadron of Rafales. We can do a PCP with the French government and in 3 years time if we cant keep up with the repayments we I'll hand the keys back

Works with Renault
They'll even throw in the servicing :pac:

sparky42

Larbre34 wrote: »

'Ah shure lookit', as they say.

Its progress in that you couldn't get a Defence official in this Country to even say 'fighter jet' or any variation thereof, without choking on it. Just to see it as an objective on an official document is something.

Simon Coveney in particular has on occasion mentioned the urgency of acquiring a primary military radar to lay the ground work for a decent air defence. If by this evening we have (as rumoured) a new Dept of Defence and Security covering the Defence Forces, Garda, Prison Service, Strategic Threat Assessment Centre and all the Intelligence arms (with Courts and law reform hived off) then we'll know that a serious focus at the highest level is on defence needs.

My own completely uninformed take on things is that Brexit and Russia and Cyberattacks are forcing serious conversations with EU and PfP partners about being able to look after our back yard, which is a hugely strategic important zone for Europe as a whole. Might we being softened up for the placement of fighter squadrons in Ireland with bi-lateral agreements, from perhaps Sweden or Finland or France? I'd be shocked if someone hasn't had the conversation in a Brussels hallway.

Christ could you imagine the amount of Army lads that would have to stand around to make sure no nutter takes an axe to the landing gears? While Coveney did raise it in comments when he was also in charge of Defence during the WP it's pretty much fallen off the political table again, and given the situation we now face I can't see the DF getting much of any budget increases, hell to be fair at this stage anything they could get should go into trying to stop the manpower crisis.

Gary kk

Wouldn't like to be the TD that has to say we can't have a new hospital wing because we need three fighter wings.

sparky42

Gary kk wrote: »

Wouldn't like to be the TD that has to say we can't have a new hospital wing because we need three fighter wings.

Bit of a jump there, and of course it comes back to the issue of Health consuming pretty much everything it can get in the budget.

Leonidas BL

sparky42 wrote: »

Bit of a jump there, and of course it comes back to the issue of Health consuming pretty much everything it can get in the budget.

And I still have to wait 2 years to get my dodgy shoulder seen to

Larbre34

You have to think laterally lads. Leasing, sponsorship, defence cohesion, there are many ways to skin the cat without it being a simple trade off between Tiny Tim getting his chemo and Maverick getting to call the ball.

In fact the next 5 years of this Country will probably be borrowing at cheap rates in order to stimulate to the max, so many of these decisions might be to do both.

sparky42

Larbre34 wrote: »

You have to think laterally lads. Leasing, sponsorship, defence cohesion, there are many ways to skin the cat without it being a simple trade off between Tiny Tim getting his chemo and Maverick getting to call the ball.

In fact the next 5 years of this Country will probably be borrowing at cheap rates in order to stimulate to the max, so many of these decisions might be to do both.

I wouldn't bet anything on the markets to be honest, with the scale of global events I'm doubtful the low rates are going to last, unless at the same time we see some massive EU changes to the ECB.

Larbre34

sparky42 wrote: »

I wouldn't bet anything on the markets to be honest, with the scale of global events I'm doubtful the low rates are going to last, unless at the same time we see some massive EU changes to the ECB.

Well its certainly not the environment to raise them. The markets need to trade to generate commission and hence income. If the EU commission is going to sell bonds and we can benefit from that, the issue will be oversubscribed 20 times, it will literally be the safest debt on the planet.

sparky42

Larbre34 wrote: »

Well its certainly not the environment to raise them. The markets need to trade to generate commission and hence income. If the EU commission is going to sell bonds and we can benefit from that, the issue will be oversubscribed 20 times, it will literally be the safest debt on the planet.

Thing is pretty much every nation, certainly every Western one is going to going to the markets with massive holes blown in their budgets, how the wealth funds deal with that is still unknown. Let alone other issues like Italy still waiting in the weeds, or the fallout to the global economy...


To me it's far to early to assume that the level of interest we've seen over the last 5 years or so in our bond issues will be maintained, or how much head room we have to take on as well.

Larbre34

No doubt, so job one of the new Govt (and Eamon Ryan said it in as many words at the session this morning) is to put the message out about our relative economic health and prospects emerging from it. But anyway, I realise I'm taking us off topic, so I guess the next factor will be the new Minister.

sparky42

Larbre34 wrote: »

No doubt, so job one of the new Govt (and Eamon Ryan said it in as many words at the session this morning) is to put the message out about our relative economic health and prospects emerging from it. But anyway, I realise I'm taking us off topic, so I guess the next factor will be the new Minister.

True enough and the question of whether it returns to a full cabinet position? I see suggestions that McEntee has got Justice.

Larbre34

sparky42 wrote: »

True enough and the question of whether it returns to a full cabinet position? I see suggestions that McEntee has got Justice.

That does seem to be one agreed rumour in a few conflicting lists. In terms of the job titles though, some of the reorganised Depts have been named, but Defence does not yet appear anywhere. All eyes on the speech of the new Taoiseach.

sparky42

Larbre34 wrote: »

That does seem to be one agreed rumour in a few conflicting lists. In terms of the job titles though, some of the reorganised Depts have been named, but Defence does not yet appear anywhere. All eyes on the speech of the new Taoiseach.

Given their limited options I do wonder what they are going to do alright.

roadmaster

Either in with justice or with MM

sparky42

roadmaster wrote: »

Either in with justice or with MM

Nope with Foreign Affairs under Coveney.

Larbre34

Foreign Affairs and Defence: Simon Coveney

Good news, big hawk for defence investment, particularly for Navy and Air Corps

sparky42

Larbre34 wrote: »

Foreign Affairs and Defence: Simon Coveney

Good news, big hawk for defence investment, particularly for Navy and Air Corps

And a good alignment I think in terms of the normal deployments of the DF to UN operations. On the other hand though Coveney has a full plate already in Foreign Affairs between Brexit and the UN seat as well...

Heraldoffreeent

sparky42 wrote: »

And a good alignment I think in terms of the normal deployments of the DF to UN operations. On the other hand though Coveney has a full plate already in Foreign Affairs between Brexit and the UN seat as well...

Now thats where Lisa Chambers as junior minister could be very effective, and she and Coveney get on well on a personal level from what I hear.

sparky42

Heraldoffreeent wrote: »

Now thats where Lisa Chambers as junior minister could be very effective, and she and Coveney get on well on a personal level from what I hear.

An interesting suggestion, it could cover some areas alright.

Larbre34

Its very possible. Martin has already announced Senator Pippa Hackett as a Super Junior and so Chambers could also serve from the Senate and as an experienced hand.

No point glossing over the necessity to appoint more women in the junior jobs too as Cabinet only has 4 of 15

hmmm

If we are going to spend a billion on new capabilities for the DF, I'd spend it on cyber-defense. It's a far more realistic threat to the State, Irish companies and MNCs operating from Ireland. Bombers flying around off the coast are interesting to report on, but unless they actually drop a nuke they're not a threat. Russia disabling our electrical network, or running interference on elections or particular politicians, is a far more likely scenario which can be easily ramped up and down by the aggressor, and with a lot of deniable plausibility.

Larbre34

The threats are multi-faceted. The White Paper and its ancillary documents and policies heavily cover cyber threats.

Markcheese

Air defence for Ireland is a long term plan , announce it as a single cost and the cost would appear extrodinarily expensive , start with the radar ... That then becomes an established costs , move up to upgradinging the pc9 s to something more suited to training for fast jets , that's a replacement of a current system , more training of technicians ,more available facilities ,at baldonel or else where ..
And then several years down the line you're in prime position to aquire fast jets if the world is more unstable , or not if their not really required ..

For the record I don't think having 15 or 16 fast jets make this country any safer in fact the opposite .. at the moment ...

Psychlops

Larbre34 wrote: »

Foreign Affairs and Defence: Simon Coveney

Good news, big hawk for defence investment, particularly for Navy and Air Corps

How so? He once questioned an experienced Air Corps Pilot that refused to fly in fog.




https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/coveney-challenged-pilot-who-refused-to-fly-due-to-fog-forecast-1.3143597

donvito99

Psychlops wrote: »

How so? He once questioned an experienced Air Corps Pilot that refused to fly in fog.




https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/coveney-challenged-pilot-who-refused-to-fly-due-to-fog-forecast-1.3143597

If he's presided over investment in the DF over and above the norm as mentioned above I don't see what relevance that incident has.

CrankyHaus

Heraldoffreeent wrote: »

Now thats where Lisa Chambers as junior minister could be very effective, and she and Coveney get on well on a personal level from what I hear.

She could even vote for him whenever he can't make it to the Dail himself.

Larbre34

CrankyHaus wrote: »

She could even vote for him whenever he can't make it to the Dail himself.

She got elected to the Senate, so no, she couldn't.

Larbre34

Psychlops wrote: »

How so? He once questioned an experienced Air Corps Pilot that refused to fly in fog.




https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/coveney-challenged-pilot-who-refused-to-fly-due-to-fog-forecast-1.3143597

I'm sure he found a meal or two in his life that weren't much to his taste, but I don't suppose that stopped him eating.

Coveney has often spoken in practical and knowledgeable terms about the DF. Of those appointed to cabinet, in my view he is one of the best two or three that could have got it.

My preference would have been a stand alone or lead ministry for Defence, but thats what we've got and we'll hope that the Minister of State is similarly motivated, eg Senator Chambers