Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

Larbre34

Don't be so quick to dismiss it, we've learned from experience that external perceptions matter to Irish Governments, or at least they matter to the civil servants and the IDA and the NTMA etc.

A perception of Defence weakness, or at least it being a low priority for the State, raises questions around cybersecurity protection, protection and insulation of vital strategic infrastructure that ensures business continuity for foreign companies with huge investments here.

I don't really care how the Government is persuaded to get serious about defence of our sovereignty, if they are shamed into it or bounced into it, so be it.

Markcheese

Personally I don't think a few token fighters add much to our national security at the moment .. they may actually make the situation worse ,
But as the song says the times they are a changing , we've no idea what uk may do or become long-term ,(neither do they ) ,
So start planning and training ... not Because some magazine wrote a critical article, because we've looked at potential risks and acted ,

We've 4 newish beckets, that were 50 million plus each , a single base in hawlbowline, 9 ( ish ) ships ,just under 1100 in waves , and it currently doesn't really provide any meaningful defense ...

roadmaster

Larbre34 wrote: »

Don't be so quick to dismiss it, we've learned from experience that external perceptions matter to Irish Governments, or at least they matter to the civil servants and the IDA and the NTMA etc.

A perception of Defence weakness, or at least it being a low priority for the State, raises questions around cybersecurity protection, protection and insulation of vital strategic infrastructure that ensures business continuity for foreign companies with huge investments here.

I don't really care how the Government is persuaded to get serious about defence of our sovereignty, if they are shamed into it or bounced into it, so be it.

i wouldn't say i am dismissing it but if fighters do happen it will be a long term project. In the short to medium term the state needs to work on retention programmes ( Maybe the way aviation is technicians could be got back from the private sector?) we also need to sort out troop transport

Leonidas BL

roadmaster

More than unlike some of the gripen operators the air corps would be operating jets over the north Atlantic, from a safety point of view would you not need a twin engine aircraft?

Larbre34

Nah I wouldn't think so. Its obviously a factor but if Sweden and South Africa are satisfied to use them in their environments, they'd probably check out.

Twin engine interceptors are few and expensive. F-15, F-18 and Typhoon are just about 100 million each and keeping them flying is a budget haemorrhage. The Korean F15K super advanced fighter is 140 million each. Ouch.

sparky42

roadmaster wrote: »

More than unlike some of the gripen operators the air corps would be operating jets over the north Atlantic, from a safety point of view would you not need a twin engine aircraft?

Not really when you consider the USN is going single engine with the F35. I mean what's the average loss rate of single engine 4.5 gen fighters?

Leonidas BL

sparky42 wrote: »

Not really when you consider the USN is going single engine with the F35. I mean what's the average loss rate of single engine 4.5 gen fighters?

Not sure, but the latest one to crash was an F-15 in the north sea. So having two engines does not guarantee safety either. I think that argument nowadays has run its course.

sparky42

Leonidas BL wrote: »

Not sure, but the latest one to crash was an F-15 in the north sea. So having two engines does not guarantee safety either. I think that argument nowadays has run its course.

Pretty much, have they announced the cause for that loss? Speaking of which I see the USAF has ordered the F-15X.

punchdrunk

Jet's aren't going to happen, the Air Corps will get nothing but tokenism.
same for the Navy (albeit slightly better)

Nothing will change until some takes the bull by the horns and completely reorganises the DF, closes half of the barracks
reduces the size of the army and expands the AC and the navy... we're an island that's somewhat poorly defended by sea and completely undefended by air, meanwhile we have thousands of soldiers in barracks that are holdovers from our colonial past.

but who has the balls to close barracks in towns that aren't strategically useful?

jonnybigwallet

Good, well researched article. Time to get a squadron of Gripens on order. And in the meantime a squadron of trainer / light attack jets such as the L39 NG.

I really think drones developed indigenously could provide everything this country requires from a fighter jet service (Fast interception, observation, takedown) at a fraction of the cost.

perfectkama

Drones wont scare everything away it needs to be a manned human eye high altitude interception able to cover many different manned threats such as a hijacked plane.
It will become more urgent as it is being recognized as the only air space with out protection and its gonna cost $
The Swedish Grippen is being toted as a candidate 10 x 60m + protection and 3 crews per plane

Markcheese

punchdrunk wrote: »

Jet's aren't going to happen, the Air Corps will get nothing but tokenism.
same for the Navy (albeit slightly better)

Nothing will change until some takes the bull by the horns and completely reorganises the DF, closes half of the barracks
reduces the size of the army and expands the AC and the navy... we're an island that's somewhat poorly defended by sea and completely undefended by air, meanwhile we have thousands of soldiers in barracks that are holdovers from our colonial past.

but who has the balls to close barracks in towns that aren't strategically useful?

The army isn't all that big is it ?
It's main job Isnt really defending the country from an outside attack (although it is part of the job ) , it's as an aid to to the government ,
Think disasters and civil unrest,terrorism ect ...
The army are the states multi-tool ( was gonna say Swiss army knife ) ...

As are the current air Corp , a few helicopters ,a few small transport planes, a couple of maritime survey planes ,a government transport , and the p 9 s ( whatever they're for )

sparky42

Deleted User wrote: »

I really think drones developed indigenously could provide everything this country requires from a fighter jet service (Fast interception, observation, takedown) at a fraction of the cost.

Not a chance to do any of that for anything like a "fraction of the cost". Just creating such an industry would be more expensive (you can tell that as nobody else has such a UCAV capability as yet)

sparky42

punchdrunk wrote: »

Jet's aren't going to happen, the Air Corps will get nothing but tokenism.
same for the Navy (albeit slightly better)

Nothing will change until some takes the bull by the horns and completely reorganises the DF, closes half of the barracks
reduces the size of the army and expands the AC and the navy... we're an island that's somewhat poorly defended by sea and completely undefended by air, meanwhile we have thousands of soldiers in barracks that are holdovers from our colonial past.

but who has the balls to close barracks in towns that aren't strategically useful?

Honestly, the Army is pretty much as small as it can be and still be able to keep it's skillsets (perhaps even too small for that), the problem is trying to run the DF on such a tiny budget. The ideal would to increase funding and to keep the Army at the current mandated strength while increasing the numbers in both the AC and NS to at least double what they are now and then add in capabilities to them imo.

Larbre34

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

And in the meantime a squadron of trainer / light attack jets such as the L39 NG.

These sort of aircraft are of no value to us. They offer no discernable advantage over the PC-9s in terms of capability or airmanship training. Their maximum speed is 100 knots slower than an airliner at cruising speed. The best way to train pilots to fly a Gripen is to put him or her in a simulator followed by a Gripen, there is a twin-seater version for that purpose.

The Boeing-Saab T7 Red Hawk is the newest most advanced plane of this type and it is currently entering service with the USAF and so it is unlikely to be available for export for some years yet.

The L39, M346 and similar are only good for two things, flying in display teams or killing tanks for forces that don't operate attack helicopters.

Psychlops

https://www.defensenews.com/global/asia-pacific/2020/07/20/indonesia-says-it-wants-to-buy-austrias-entire-typhoon-fighter-fleet/


Bye bye Austrian Tiffies.

sparky42

Psychlops wrote: »

https://www.defensenews.com/global/asia-pacific/2020/07/20/indonesia-says-it-wants-to-buy-austrias-entire-typhoon-fighter-fleet/


Bye bye Austrian Tiffies.

To be fair, the Austrian Tiffies were going away anyway given the legal action going on between Austrian and the consortium, this just means they might see use rather than go into mothballs.

Larbre34

The Austrians will be only thrilled to get a few quid for them, help pay for the Gripens they always should have procured.

I know the Typhoon is operated by some "friendly" middle eastern air forces, but I wonder is there any recourse to the Consortium and investor Governments about selling to somewhere outside of certain Allies?

sparky42

Larbre34 wrote: »

The Austrians will be only thrilled to get a few quid for them, help pay for the Gripens they always should have procured.

I know the Typhoon is operated by some "friendly" middle eastern air forces, but I wonder is there any recourse to the Consortium and investor Governments about selling to somewhere outside of certain Allies?

Well the suggestion is they are going for leasing rather than outright buying to avoid the time delay of an open competition.


I think I read that they tried to get Indonesia to buy Typhoons back when it was competing with the Russians for their latest order, that Indonesia was offered a licence for a production line. Same offer was made to both India and Japan when they were trying to win export orders.


However with the orders from Germany and the report of Spain replacing their early F18's with new Tranche Typhoons the European order line should be good for a few more years with perhaps up to 100 more.

Larbre34

I was just leafing through the specs of the F-16 and the Gripen, the range of the Falcon is appalling!

Assuming we aren't going to acquire a mid-air refuelling capability and we're not in a position to join a multi-national tanker effort, the Gripen is the only logical choice for our needs.

cameramonkey

As Berry said on the radio the other day, lets start off with 3 military radar sites and then we can at least see what is in and adjacent to our airspace. That would be a big leap in our capacity.

sparky42

cameramonkey wrote: »

As Berry said on the radio the other day, lets start off with 3 military radar sites and then we can at least see what is in and adjacent to our airspace. That would be a big leap in our capacity.

That's not something he came up with, it's been in the WP since 2015 in the "Wishlist" section.

cameramonkey

sparky42 wrote: »

That's not something he came up with, it's been in the WP since 2015 in the "Wishlist" section.

He did not say he came up with it, he just was making the point , a good one, that we should start with that first.

sparky42

cameramonkey wrote: »

He did not say he came up with it, he just was making the point , a good one, that we should start with that first.

Which is already the stated aim of the WP if funds are available, he’s not making a point just repeating what has already been decided.

cameramonkey

sparky42 wrote: »

Which is already the stated aim of the WP if funds are available, he’s not making a point just repeating what has already been decided.

Do you know what making a point means? It means to argue or promote an idea or to state something that is important. The idea is to get some military grade radar and he is promoting that idea so he Making a point.


This may clear it up for you.
https://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/make+a+point
https://www.yourdictionary.com/make-a-point


Do you have a problem with Mr Berry promoting the idea that we should have radar?

Larbre34

Coveney said that a primary radar was already a major priority of his when he was in his last stint as Minister, yet still we are no further.

Did I read here or somewhere recently that a system wouldn't actually be that expensive, i.e. <20 million?

sparky42

Larbre34 wrote: »

Coveney said that a primary radar was already a major priority of his when he was in his last stint as Minister, yet still we are no further.

Did I read here or somewhere recently that a system wouldn't actually be that expensive, i.e. <20 million?

To be fair we're basically no further on anything since his last stint and actually worse.


Don't know where you read that, I suppose it depends on the systems and capabilities and integration that is looked for, I'm sure there's a fairly big envelope from bare bones to highly capable with the price tags to match.

punchdrunk

Larbre34 wrote: »

I was just leafing through the specs of the F-16 and the Gripen, the range of the Falcon is appalling!

Assuming we aren't going to acquire a mid-air refuelling capability and we're not in a position to join a multi-national tanker effort, the Gripen is the only logical choice for our needs.

Assume we aren’t getting anything, because there’s no way we are!!



...I’d love to be wrong but let’s be real here!