Fighter jets for the Air Corps?

Sgt. Bilko 09

Dohvolle wrote: »

I bet you still make toast by holding a slice of bread on a fork in front of the superser.
The 80s is over dude. That Mullet may be cool in OZ but those shoulder pads aint coming back.

I presume you mean "Gripen".

The viggen was unreal in its prime...SR71 story comes to mind

sparky42

Sgt. Bilko 09 wrote: »

The viggen was unreal in its prime...SR71 story comes to mind

Sadly it's day is long gone at this stage.

roadmaster

If my some miracle the Air Corps did get Interceptors maybe the way forward would be sending pilots abroad for training like they have done recently with the helicopter pilots .

sparky42

roadmaster wrote: »

If my some miracle the Air Corps did get Interceptors maybe the way forward would be sending pilots abroad for training like they have done recently with the helicopter pilots .

Honestly there's no other option than that really for the numbers we would be talking about and the costs, there's plenty of options depending on what aircraft would be selected by this miracle.

Dohvolle

roadmaster wrote: »

If my some miracle the Air Corps did get Interceptors maybe the way forward would be sending pilots abroad for training like they have done recently with the helicopter pilots .

That would have to be tied in to any contract until we have built up decent experience.
We are starting from zero here. Nobody in the Air Corps has operated fast jet fighter aircraft (Vampire T55 and Fouga don't count, both were trainers without radar or afterburner). Send them to somewhere sunny to learn the skills. Clear skies mean you can maximise the hours flown in a shorter period. Somewhere like SA or OZ, depending on the aircraft.

Negative_G

I enjoy discussion as much as the next person but this is getting tedious at this stage.

Take a step back for a second and look at the multitude of problems within the DF. Conpletely ignoring the socioeconomic and political spheres.

Fast Jets of any description are the furthest possible thing on the minds of of the Dept Of Defense and the Government. Even if they were gifted a squadron of F16s, the Mx, training and fuel budget would cripple the DF without *signficiant* further investment. There is absolutely no indication that this is coming.

People cling onto the WP. As someone mentioned previously, the PWC report which was also supposed to be a shining light to drive a change in policy produced absolutely nothing.

Since then, the DF have had the following:
2000 White Paper
2015 White paper
2015 UL climate survey
2017 Workplace Survey
2019 Whitepaper Update
2019 PSPC report

What came from all of these? A 5-10% restoration of allowances. That was the sum total.

What's next? The 2021 commission on defence. Another paper exervise that will produce nothing.

The white paper counts for nothing. It is meant to guide policy over a prolonged period of time, which in reality does not. Take the recent reports of the AC wanting to be considered for SAR. Zero mention of this in the WP2015. So much for driving policy.

The defence forces is being driven into the ground. The numbers and the reports don't lie.

I'd love to see a squadron of fast jets with the tri colour on them as much as most but its nothing more than a fantasy.

Discussion is all well and good but a little bit of perspective would be great for all concerned.

There will be no PC9 replacement this decade. The fleet are no where near the end of their structural life based on hours and there are mid life upgrades being planned which is considerably cheaper than purchasing a fleet of new aircraft.

Larbre34

Me: sees the military forum has some new activity on a thread

Also me: sees the activity was prompted by a typical nonsense post by JBW and nopes out of the thread faster than that well worn gif of the toddler that does a swift about turn and leaves.

roadmaster

Negative_G wrote: »

I enjoy discussion as much as the next person but this is getting tedious at this stage.

Take a step back for a second and look at the multitude of problems within the DF. Conpletely ignoring the socioeconomic and political spheres.

Fast Jets of any description are the furthest possible thing on the minds of of the Dept Of Defense and the Government. Even if they were gifted a squadron of F16s, the Mx, training and fuel budget would cripple the DF without *signficiant* further investment. There is absolutely no indication that this is coming.

People cling onto the WP. As someone mentioned previously, the PWC report which was also supposed to be a shining light to drive a change in policy produced absolutely nothing.

Since then, the DF have had the following:
2000 White Paper
2015 White paper
2015 UL climate survey
2017 Workplace Survey
2019 Whitepaper Update
2019 PSPC report

What came from all of these? A 5-10% restoration of allowances. That was the sum total.

What's next? The 2021 commission on defence. Another paper exervise that will produce nothing.


The white paper counts for nothing. It is meant to guide policy over a prolonged period of time, which in reality does not. Take the recent reports of the AC wanting to be considered for SAR. Zero mention of this in the WP2015. So much for driving policy.

The defence forces is being driven into the ground. The numbers and the reports don't lie.

I'd love to see a squadron of fast jets with the tri colour on them as much as most but its nothing more than a fantasy.

Discussion is all well and good but a little bit of perspective would be great for all concerned.

There will be no PC9 replacement this decade. The fleet are no where near the end of their structural life based on hours and there are mid life upgrades being planned which is considerably cheaper than purchasing a fleet of new aircraft.

Are you saying the DOD & the state dont care?

ohnonotgmail

roadmaster wrote: »

Are you saying the DOD & the state dont care?

The state certainly doesn't.

Markcheese

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

The state certainly doesn't.

Politically , spending on a fast jet programme would be suicide .. and it's not just the capital spend ,it's the ongoing spend .. there is a lot that could be done for the df without becoming an enormous sh1tshow though

Negative_G

roadmaster wrote: »

Are you saying the DOD & the state dont care?

That's exactly what I'm saying.

If you can point me towards tangible evidence that they do care I'll happily discuss it.

Soundbites from senators and TDs are all well and good but until they are actioned, they count for very little.

Dohvolle

Negative_G wrote: »

That's exactly what I'm saying.

If you can point me towards tangible evidence that they do care I'll happily discuss it.

Soundbites from senators and TDs are all well and good but until they are actioned, they count for very little.

Without huge overhaul of the dod (by overhaul read sackings) nothing will change.
The people who 7 years after the 2015 WP put their names on an implementation report showing most action points not due to commence until AFTER 2023 should be put out to pasture.
If as a private sector administrator, I went to my manager, 7 years into a 10 year policy & production plan and told him more than half of it had not been started yet, I'd be doing so with the situations vacant pages of the internet open at my desk, because I would know my future prospects in the organisation were toast. My managers would be doing the same, because my productivity is tied into their future careers too.
I don't understand why this is not the case in the DoD.

Negative_G

Negative_G wrote: »

That's exactly what I'm saying.

If you can point me towards tangible evidence that they do care I'll happily discuss it.

Soundbites from senators and TDs are all well and good but until they are actioned, they count for very little.

Why would anyone in the Dail approve spending for jets while the current attitude of "Shure if we need jets we'll just ring up Brize Norton and ask them to scramble a few jets for us" persists?

We havn't yet gotten highspeed public transport. High speed jets are decades away. There's lots of talk about the benefits Bus Connects will bring, but at the end of the day we're still talking about a bus. Woop-de-doo. With that sort of attitude existing we're lucky we have planes that can actually take off.

roadmaster

Negative_G wrote: »

That's exactly what I'm saying.

If you can point me towards tangible evidence that they do care I'll happily discuss it.

Soundbites from senators and TDs are all well and good but until they are actioned, they count for very little.

I am being sarcastic i know the state doesn't care about the defence forces

Dohvolle

roadmaster wrote: »

I am being sarcastic i know the state doesn't care about the defence forces

It cares when the bus drivers go on strike.
It cares when the Paramedics go on strike.
It cares when there are floods and someone is needed to fill sandbags.
It cares when it snows and someone needs to get to people trapped in remote locations.
Otherwise, meh.
The DF exists, in the eyes of government, to cheaply do the jobs that would cost a fortune if the private sector did it.
Air Ambulance? Not a Military role.
GASU? Not military
Putting out forest fires? Not military
Fishery Protection? Not military
Cash escort? Not military
Border protection? Partially military
Armed assistance to police? Only if the **** has hit the fan and urgent reinforcements are needed, should never have been a daily event.
With no disrespect to the members of the DF, when we see them used most is when they are doing jobs that should be done by a well organised and funded civil defence.

jonnybigwallet

Shame to see such a lot of negativity around this issue. I thought my modest proposal to get things moving in the right direction was eminently affordable and would have given the Corps a real morale boost. I suggest keeping 4 of the PC9's for ab initio training.

jonnybigwallet

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Shame to see such a lot of negativity around this issue. I thought my modest proposal to get things moving in the right direction was eminently affordable and would have given the Corps a real morale boost. I suggest keeping 4 of the PC9's for ab initio training.

95% of the people on this thread would love your idea to become reality, but we are realists based from experience. With a bit of careful lobbying, you could easily get 70 million for a world class gold resort, but getting the same amount to upgrade the air corp, simply isn't happening. Fact of life unfortunately.

jonnybigwallet

Oh well...It's all right to spend 2 billion on a childrens hospital I suppose. But 100 million for the AC is not affordable. What a bleedin joke!

roadmaster

If the air corps was part of the army as a corps like artillery or engineering would it be treated any better?

jonnybigwallet

Well at least the so called navy got 4 half decent patrol ships and talk about a multi purpose ship in the pipeline.

Negative_G

Dohvolle wrote: »

I don't understand why this is not the case in the DoD.

Two words. Civil servants.

https://youtu.be/HEvpiaPk6rs

roadmaster wrote: »

I am being sarcastic i know the state doesn't care about the defence forces

Apologies. My sarcasm detector needs a service!

Dohvolle

roadmaster wrote: »

If the air corps was part of the army as a corps like artillery or engineering would it be treated any better?

It was that way up to the mid 70s. Some still call it the "Army Air Corps". Pilot training was still being done on Post War era piston prop taildraggers, and the lucky ones got to fly in a 1st generation postwar jet trainer, if that answers your question.
Oh, and we were still flying Spitfires as a frontline aircraft in the 1960s, and the main transport aircraft was a DH Dove.
Cutting the cord with the army was the kiss of life the Air Corps needed.

sparky42

Markcheese wrote: »

Politically , spending on a fast jet programme would be suicide .. and it's not just the capital spend ,it's the ongoing spend .. there is a lot that could be done for the df without becoming an enormous sh1tshow though

Hell, can you just imagine the protests outside the daíl after only a week of jets flying out of Baldonnel?

jonnybigwallet

I thought you were in favour of Gripens?

Larbre34

For the 7 Millionth time.

The L-39 type offers no appreciable increase in capability over the PC-9M.

If you're going to buy jets, buy proper jets (supersonic interceptors of the type we need). If you're going to replace advanced trainers, buy advanced trainers that are the best at what they do and shorten the progression to the fast jets.

If the AC do replace the PC9s on time, they'll still have to go to tender and I'd be hoping the PC-21 would win that competition. They are a superb advanced trainer and light strike aircraft and our pilots training with the RAAF are already familiar with the type.

jonnybigwallet

Fair play to ya. Yeve done ur homework on the Pc21 which is an excellent aircraft! I just prefer the Vodo****ov for a number of reasons including the necessary advances to be made in rhe engineering support role.

Heraldoffreeent

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Fair play to ya. Yeve done ur homework on the Pc21 which is an excellent aircraft! I just prefer the Vodo****ov for a number of reasons including the necessary advances to be made in rhe engineering support role.

Or, more likely, coz its a jet, any ould jet, a feckin jet!!

Negative_G

Larbre34 wrote: »

If the AC do replace the PC9s on time, they'll still have to go to tender and I'd be hoping the PC-21 would win that competition. They are a superb advanced trainer and light strike aircraft and our pilots training with the RAAF are already familiar with the type.

The pilots with the RAAF have absolutely nothing to do with the PC-21. They are flying King Airs.

The purpose of that arrangement is to build multi engine experience, not abinitio training.

hurleronditch

jonnybigwallet wrote: »

Oh well...It's all right to spend 2 billion on a childrens hospital I suppose. But 100 million for the AC is not affordable. What a bleedin joke!

I’m in no way defending the sorry mess that is the construction of the children’s hospital, but you could have chosen another example like a white water rafting centre in central Dublin or greyhound racing as your strawman!!

Not many politicians will support some toys for the aer Corps that we’ve survived 100 years without needing over sick children.

Insert Simpsons gif here.

jonnybigwallet

Heraldoffreeent wrote: »

Or, more likely, coz its a jet, any ould jet, a feckin jet!!

Suggest you look at the title of this board.