Why are so many Strong Gaelic football Counties in Decline?

Sonny678

Stoner wrote:

And did you enjoy the 50's Sonny?

Stoner wrote:

If you think its a few Clare jerseys then it's shows how far off the mark you are.

Stoner wrote:

You have a very backward view imo.

Stoner wrote:

There are a huge amount of country lads playing in Dublin, and they don't always get a good run either.

Stoner wrote:

It cuts both ways, you'll just have to deal with it or remain bitter. Things change Sonny that's life.

Stoner wrote:

Either embrace it or it will only get worse imo.

Stoner that is very unfair. I'm bitter . I don't know how I'm bitter. I might not have explained myself well in the above paragraph. That paragraph is a bit of a mess. I didn't explain myself well at all in that paragraph.

I believe The movement to Meath the growth of population is a good thing. It is a positive thing. How is that bitter
I believe economically socially and culturally it had transformed Meath from a quite rural county to a modern vibrant energetic young area. How is that bitter.

I'm just saying there was people in the past who didn't support the county. That is a fact. How is that bitter.

There is many Dublin people in the county involved with Meath clubs who encourage their kids to play for Dublin in the future. How is that bitter to say.

I believe The Dublin people in the clubs can bring iniative good energy positivity to those Meath clubs. How is that bitter.

But for the county this is a negative. That is a fact. That's all. How am I bitter by stating that.

I think Stoner you are being very unfair. I am one of the most forward thinking people you will meet. But I am a passionate Meath man. I love my county. And I want to see us sucessful. And this is an issue in the county at the moment. Not the most important issue. But it is an issue all the same . To say that is not been bitter. It been stating the bleeding obvious. We will just have to adapt. A sucessful Meath senior team would help win the minds of young players in the county. That will help matters.

I don't hate Dublin. I don't hate anyone. I actually like Dublin people. Their sense of humour is very similar to Meaths peoples sense of humour. I was glad to see them win the All Ireland in 2011. We needed a Dublin all Ireland win in the GAA. 16 years was to long a wait. And those Dublin players deserved the win after years of nearly sucess. But when Dublin have won 5 in 7 years and our going for 4 in a row. If I say I would rather someone else win next year. That doesn't mean I hate Dublin. It means I think it would be good for the game.

But to call me bitter is disappointing. I'm either not explaining myself well . Or you have read everything I wrote all wrong.

This feckin site. I cannot feckin get the handle of it. I'm either fighting with people over a football match , row after row with 6 or 7 Dubs, or people are just calling me bitter. I don't know. I give up. It ain't working out. Its time to give it up again. Before I start another row and be accussed of I don't know of being who knows what. I'm ain't explaining myself properly and causing to much hassle on the site. That is not my intention.

Bonniedog

This is interesting debate. Sonny has his point of view which is backed up with historical knowledge.

No need to impute any other motives, I think.

All counties have different histories. My own family's main GAA influence was granddad from Tipp who hurled for Dublin. But Dub grandmother's family were GAA back to 1890s when, as they say, it was either popular nor profitable.

Dublin GAA up to 50s was to large extent dominated by people who had come from other counties. There was football tradition in Dublin, much the same as Meath in fact and from areas close by geographically, but hurling did not exist. My grandfather despite playing for Dublin and had sons and grand children who played for Dublin always supported the team Dublin were playing. Ce la vie, as they say!

Sonny678

slegs wrote:

Limerick have been a failure at senior but have been relatively successful at underage in recent years particularly in schools hurling and U21. You could say that a decline has been halted if anything and hurling is alive again in Limerick city. I think Limerick are a good example of the argument against the OP's view. Ultimately it has to lead to an All Ireland to be proven but the building blocks are there.

That's fair enough. But we have been down this road with limerick before. We had that extraordinary 3 in row under 21 team in the 00s. I thought myself and say allot of people that would lead to senior title in the late 00s. But other then that great win v Waterford in 2007 and the final v Kilkenny . It never materialised. Hopefully it does this time. We all love to see Waterford win liam . But it would be great if limerick did also. A great gaa county. A great sport county. Passionate fans . They play a great brand of hurling. All passion fire and fury. Always enjoyed Limerick hurling.

But overall at senior level for a county with such a great tradition strong club scene a big population and a city 1 senior win in 80 years is poor.

I always felt the heartbreaking loss to Offaly in 94 was something that hit limerick hard. They got back to the final in 96. But they never recovered really in the 90s from 94. It's pity they didn't win in 94 for you get the feeling more sucess would have followed. If they won in 94 , That 3 in a row under 21 teams could have made the breakthrough. There was probaly to much expected and to much pressure on those 3 in a row teams to deliver.

But hopefully we will see Liam Mcartney in limerick pretty soon.

Mehapoy

Sonny678 wrote: »

bucketybuck wrote:

Honestly, it sounds as if Meath GAA has a bit of a chip on its shoulder about all these "blow-ins", they would be better to accept the reality of those figures and work on how to embrace them rather than giving them the cold shoulder.

bucketybuck wrote:

They might be Dubs, but embrace them now, create a welcoming club culture and Meath GAA might actually find that it would pay off in 10/20 years.

I know at least 4 Dublin parents in Meath. Children playing in Meath clubs. And their fathers told me. They will never support Meath. Always Dublin. And would never play for Meath. And two told me they would sure their kids will hate Meath football as much as he does himself. No problem. Nothing wrong with that. Free country. But don't make it out to be Meaths fault. Those parents viewpoint would be the majority viewpoint.

Dublin GAA supporters with children in Meath club are going to rather their kids support Dublin and play for Dublin. That is a fact. To say otherwise Donald Trump wouldn't even come up with such nonsense. Many will encourage their children to be part of Meath clubs and then support and play Dublin. There is thousands upon thousands of examples of this. Nothing wrong. You can do what you like. There is many examples.

But do not say that Meath had caused this. It's not right. It's playing the Meath are the bad guys card and Dublin are the good guys card. There are no bad guys. It is just modern Ireland. People are moving out to the sticks. Culturally socially economically it's bringing a great energy and vibrancy to Meath and Kildare. It is a positive impact on the county of Meath socially culturally economically.

But in GAA terms it has had a negative effect on Meath GAA. Meath producing future Dublin players is not Meaths fault. To blame us it's not right. It pretty bad form.

Simple put everyone who knows anything about gaa would understand this. Dubs want their kids to support and play Dublin. They are 100% their right. But don't blame Meath for this. That is Not right. Whatsoever.

It happens all over the country, in Limerick a lot of Tipperary and Clare people would have moved to Limerick and have children playing for and supporting Limerick(Moran's of ahane, Shane O'Neill, ), vice versa also, the rivalries are as bitter as Dublin/Meath so I don't know why its so unique to Dublin and Meath

Sonny678

Somehow this thread was about so many Strong counties in decline. Yet in went of in another direction or two. I have to take the blame for that. Instead of just posting short concise messages I do the opposite and continue to post over and over again.

Stoner I am a bit disappointed u think I'm bitter. I would consider you a decent nice fella. I don't think I'm bitter. But clearly thats the way it came across. The paragraph you identified made no sense to me and I wrote it. It was badly constructed and I have had quite a few of them.

I was talking about rural Ireland and old farmers and parents . Rural Ireland is not cultured it's not cosmopolitan. It's wonderful in it's own way, but rough , and at times rough around the edges. But I am very proud of being from rural Ireland. It made me the person in every way the good and the bad and I suspose the bitter.

Being Meath supporters over the years you do get negative responses from other counties. And while some miss the Meath teams of old the responses are still highly negative. And to this day I can be surprised of how much a Tyrone or Cork person still hates us. I have never met Tyrone supporter who still remeber 96 of some sort of day Meath people decapitated the whole population of Tyrone in Croker. Supporters from.other counties the digs are criticism go from the mild you cheated in 2010 to dirty #$$####$$ so and sos and much much worse. Am I bitter? . I don't think so . But I suspose it has subconsciously made me have a chip on the shoulder. Probaly.

I have probaly let my fella Meath men down on this board ie. Top blokes like Hammer. Probaly thinking he making a show of us again. But overall I just want to say If I did annoy insult demean and say anything negative towards other counties and other supporters and sections of supporters , definatly it wasn't my intention and I do apologise. I seem to just write of the top of my head. And respond to messages and threads full of emotion and gusto. Sometimes I'm responding to myself.

And end up in knots and starting fights. Definatly not my intention. I enjoy this board immensely. I read it daily. And want to join into so many threads. But as you can see when I do its becomes a mess. So I am going to take a break again for good. It's just I'm not able to work the forum well. Like I said before Its like I come for a couple of drinks with the locals to talk about the match at the weekend and instead get violent drunk tell stories from my past as I try and thump the head of every local in the pub.

Before I go off into wilderness though I would like to mention 1 more gaa topic I wanted to post. But it related to this kind of. But I won't respond I will leave at that. I was going to set up a separate thread called The Art of defending is Dying, but I will place it here instead.

PS Thanks Bonniedog for being encouraging about what I wrote. With your style and in your excellent humorous way. Appreciated. Gentleman you are.

My last gaa topic is the art of defence is dying. I think the blanket defence and sweepers is killing the skill of defending. I was a corner back in my day. A good man marker. But when I look at defenders today their defensive skills etc is poor. The Atleticism and mobility is a sight to behold. But players not looking to block a players stronger leg , or baal watching or standing in the wrong positions happens over and over again. Don't get me wrong there is some great defenders. But they mostly all play for Dublin and Mayo. But compared to years ago we don't seem to have the same high quality or quantity of great defenders . I think what has happened is if a player makes a mistake now there is a sweeper to cover up our blanket defence to cover up for mistakes. It has made defenders a bit loose.

In my day you couldn't make mistakes. If you had a mistake in the corner back position even the half back position there was no one to cover you. The opposing forward was in on goals. This made you improve your defensive skilset. If you didn't improve you wouldn't play.

Dublin have great defenders. Proper defenders like Cooper McMahon Sullivan Brennan Mcarthy. Dublin have always produced great defenders eg Sean Doherty Tommy Drumm Paul Curran Keith Barr Eamon Heery Mick Kennedy Paddy Christie Gerry Hargan. That has continued with the current crop. Mayo also have great defenders eg Keegan Boyle Vaughan Higgins. And Mayo also have a great tradition of defending. Going back to Sean Flanagan Dermot Flanagan James Nallen Mortimer Pat Holmes.

But other counties with great tradition the Galway . Have had great defenders. One of the greatest ever in Enda Collernan. But at the moment defensively Galway are very weak.

Kerry another county with great tradition. All time great defenders eg Tim Kennelly Jimmy Dennihan Tommy Doyle Paudi O Se Tomas O Se Marc O Se Seamus Moyihan Eamon Breen liam Flaherty Aidan O Mahony Tom Sullivan . At the moment kerry defensively very shakey.

Meath also have had a great tradition of defenders epescislly corner backs and full backs eg Paddy O Brien Mick O Brien Jack Quinn Peter Darby Pat Collier Pat Reynolds snr Mick Lyons Robbie O Malley liam Harnan Martin O Connell Darren Fay Mark Reilly. Meath have had defensive problems for 15 yeas weak defensively.

In the 90s and 00s you had great defenders like Niall Callanhane Stephen O Brien Seamus Moyihan Eamon Breen Tony Scullion Sean Martin Lockart Henry Downey DJ Kane Conor Deegan Sean Og de Paor Tomas Mannion Mick Lyons Darren Fay Martin O Connell Keith Barr Eamon Heery Paul Curran Gerry Hargan Paddy Christie Kieran McGeeney Ryan McMeninman Conor Gormley Philip Jordan Davy Harte Anthony Lynch Graham Canty James Nallen and many many more.

I just think the blanket defence and sweepers has had effect on defending skills. I think corner backs are more wing back really more attack minded. Anyway that's my last post . I wouldn't respond.

Keep up the great work on this forum. It is delight to read informative funny and at times brillant threads. Sorry again for driving the place mad.
Lovely hurling. Hopefully 2018 will be a great gaa season.
PEACE.

slegs

slegs wrote: »

Limerick have been a failure at senior but have been relatively successful at underage in recent years particularly in schools hurling and U21. You could say that a decline has been halted if anything and hurling is alive again in Limerick city. I think Limerick are a good example of the argument against the OP's view. Ultimately it has to lead to an All Ireland to be proven but the building blocks are there.

Far too soon to know where Limerick are at. The underage sides from minor down had a very poor season last year and Limerick need good underage sides every year to fix the senior problems imo.

In terms of senior hurling issues, I think for years Limerick neglected the basic underage skills and instead preferred a more physical style of hurling that is just outlawed now. The top sides of the recent years (maybe Clare aside) are capable of being physical when they have to be, but at their core are skilful hurlers. Limerick have never really gotten that balance right.

In terms of why so many football teams seem weak atm it's because a handful of teams are inordinately good. This Dublin side may as well be unbeatable for every other Leinster county, they are way ahead and if they were beaten they would still get a chance through the backdoor. The current system makes it hard for most teams to be competitive, despite giving everyone more games.

Utopia Parkway

It's very hard to be good all the time. Traditional All-Ireland winning counties like Galway, Meath, Cork, Down, etc have all produced great teams in the past but there has been plenty of lean barren periods in between.

Who has ever been consistently successful apart from Kerry? Dublin yes recently but even they have had barren spells. Maybe not any more though.

klairondavis

Sonny678 wrote: »

In the last 45 years Kildare have beaten Dublin twice and no draws.

There have been three draws in the last 25 years.....

rpurfield

Stoner wrote: »

Again I've a very good friend from Dublin. Played on our local team

Moved to Meath some years ago when his oldest was about 4.

He goes to the Dublin games with us.

One of his children, my godchild is from Dublin but plays underage for Meath.

The father lined out for their football team he was not a great footballer, he trained as a ref and has three kids with the club. He hurled with them too but not for long, he was on a Senior Hurling team in Dublin and was better than their average hurler

He said that there is a massive dislike of any of the parents from Dublin, they find out last about arrangements, they are kept out of the loop. He's never felt welcomed. They hold meetings, vote and make appointments without any of the Dublin members invited or present.

This year he has stopped helping out at the club, he's decided not to bring his kids training unless they kick up, so he's not encouraging them to play but will bring them if they want. He went as far to say that there is a horrible atmosphere in the club and he's beginning to hate it. It's the sport not the club that kept him going back.

I agree there are many Dublin supporters in these areas but some of the Meath clubs need to open their arms to the newcomers too.

He said you can wear any county top when training but kids are sent in to change if they have Dublin kit they are told to "show respect"

One of his lads is on an under 12s team. The club moved a local to run them this year without even telling the existing manager who was from Dublin and pushed to enter teams for two years as he was bring it through with his own kid. They haven't played a game in 4 months now but intend to enter the championship. His U12 son hasn't played a game against another team in months and is losing interest.

This was all arranged to put a local in charge of the team, the progress made was resented.

We'd lads from Clare, Cork and Laois on our team in the centre of the city. They wore their county tops at training.

I guess it's a complicated issue, there are no winners in these situations but they are not isolated incidents either. You haven't a hope of getting a city kid to identify with Meath in the current light, but you might if there was more of a compromise.

I've another friend from my area moved to Kildare, Newbridge. It was a completely different experience. This guy was soccer through and through his oldest was 10 when they moved and considered himself a Dub, he played GAA at school and joined a club, as a result the father helps out at the club now and the young lad has played U14 and U16 for Kildare.

Both of these guys lived on the same street in Dublin, one was welcomed by the local community and the other was not.

Both families have produced kids that have played county football, however I'm fairly sure that my godchild would transfer to Dublin if asked and "Kildare" kid would not.

Stoner your friends experience is down to the club. We'd have more Dublin people involved in our club than natives, particularly in the underage section. Most of Meath has boomed in the last 20 years and to shut out anyone who's moved into the area is stupid, I can say it's been a massive benefit to our club.

In terms of the counties not doing as well, to me Meath are only getting themselves to the place Dublin were in when they put the coaching structures in place that they are reaping the benefits of now. Like said above it's cyclical and will come around again. I don't buy this thing of kids going back in to play with Dublin either, we've a number of underage footballers of Dublin descent that have gone into Meath teams in various codes.

Bonniedog

Ironically, Meath and Kildare are experiencing the opposite of migration to Dublin. Dubs who are moving to other counties tend to be interested in sport, and GAA in particular. Many parts of Dublin are full of other migrants who have no interest in anything pertaining to our way of life, GAA included. Which is why people move. GAA is not going to solve that, unfortunately.

Seth Brundle

Sonny678 wrote: »

You answered the question in the last line. The Meath v Dublin rivalry. Most parents settling with kids now in Meath grew up in the 80s and 90s. What was going on in Dublin GAA in 90s. Yearly battles with Meaths. And nearly yearly victories for Meath.

There is no real rivalry between Kildare and Dublin. It's a muted rivalry. Kildare don't like Dublin. But there is a lack of bite . Something you could never accuse Meath and Dublin of not having. Meath defeated Dublin in 8 leinster finals in over 10 years in the 80s and 90s. Kildare have only beaten Dublin 1 time in a leinster final in 100 years. That's the reason. Meath v Dublin is a rivalry. One of if not the biggest rivalry in GAA.

Kildare and Dublin is not really. In the last 45 years Kildare have beaten Dublin twice and no draws. In the last 35 years Meaths have beaten Dublin 9 times and 5 draws. That's why. It's a rivalry. Man City parents are not going to bring their kids up to support Man Utd. Celtic parents are not going to bring their kids up to support Rangers. Kilkenny parents are not going to bring their kids up to support Tipp. It's the same with Meath and Dubllin. There will be the few who will. But the vast majority of Dublin parents would rather their kids support and play for Dublin not Meath. I think that makes obvious sense. Surely that is no surprise.

My point was that if it is actually the case that the kids are being cultured to play locally yet would prefer to represent a different county then why do they not have pride in the county they grow up in. I don't believe that it's down to the parents - otherwise my kids would like Dublin and not Kildare.
If there is a problem whereby kids don't feel any pride or loyalty in the county that they grow up in, regardless of their where their parents come from, then we must ask why this is happenjng and how can the GAA overcome it: not just ignore it. If it is down to parents loyalties steering the kids then that can be changed but as a strategy, it needs to be encouraged from the top down. Otherwise the former great counties will continue to haemmorage potential players.
My €0.02!

nice_guy80

I know a few lads involved in clubs in Meath, both rural and urban

according to them, the Dubs who have children involved in clubs just cause hassle.
the parents generally don't get involved in running things and yet an opinion on everything, and why it isn't being done right

Stoner

Sonny678 wrote:

I think Stoner you are being very unfair. I am one of the most forward thinking people you will meet. But I am a passionate Meath man. I love my county. And I want to see us sucessful. And this is an issue in the county at the moment. Not the most important issue. But it is an issue all the same . To say that is not been bitter. It been stating the bleeding obvious. We will just have to adapt. A sucessful Meath senior team would help win the minds of young players in the county. That will help matters.

I don't know Sonny I've supported your posts many times and have marvelled at your knowledge of football.

But sometimes it falls over into Meath teams of the past being the best and having the best player in ever position ever. I understand that comes from pride and I respect it, but it's not a belief I share.

The underage system in Meath has been blamed for the poor showing at senior level.

Maybe some of the Dublin partents are asshxles, but maybe some can add to it.

Like I said things move on.
My old club in the city centre is gone, my old school is about 40 percent non national and fields no GAA teams now.

Should I blame the foreigners?

Yet there's still GAA here, things move on Meath should be able to get 25 good GAA players.

I've no time for parents influencing a child to play for the parent's and not the child's county.0

I've see that happen here too although I'd imagine that Meath have a particularly difficult time with this at the moment.

But again things move on, the people in a county make up a county, some steps by clubs in Meath will need to be taken.

Another point about Dublin kids is that many play soccer too. This leads to a particular type of feedback from parents . I wouldn't wish it on anyone but unfortunately it's happening all over the country now.

When we played in the late 80's and early 90's our manager was a Christian brother and parents didn't go to games. That seems like a long long time ago now.