Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III

robinph

mrhoppy wrote: »

When you call someone racist, or homophobic, or transphobic because they don't want a 40-something year old tranny having a **** beside their 6-year-old daughter in a Chuck E. Cheese, they're going to vote for someone who will reverse those policies for their own safety.

Those terms seem to be entirely appropriate for the people you have described. If they are getting upset that they are being referred to by those terms then the problem is with them.

Tell me how

Doltanian wrote:

I propose an interesting question? What is wrong with being a racist or holding differing viewpoints considered racist?

Im deliberately trying to be concise.
You are engaging with or viewing people with a preconceived view as to their behaviour based solely on an aspect of their being which they have had no opportunity to select or had no part in informing you of your view.

SkepticQuark

mrhoppy wrote: »

-> US Stock Market has gained $2,000,000,000,000 ($2 trillion) in wealth since his inauguration
-> Decreased US debt in first 100 days by $100,000,000,000 ($100 billion)
-> US Manufacturing Index soared to a 33-year high (highest since President Reagan)
-> Illegal immigration down 67%
-> Travel ban
-> Border wall progressing slowly but surely
-> Exiting Trans-Pacific Partnership
-> NATO allied spending up $10 trillion
-> Funding cut for sanctuary cities
-> Mandating for every regulation to eliminate two previous regulations
-> ISIS down to >1000 fighters
-> Expanding religious freedom laws
-> Giving veterans better care
-> Reinstated the Mexico City Policy

I dunno.. seems like he's achieved quite a bit

It's kind of sad more than it is anything else that people still list the same things over and over when it's been clarified over and over that these points are either objectively bad or not even attributable to Trump directly.

ancapailldorcha

Doltanian wrote: »

I propose an interesting question? What is wrong with being a racist or holding differing viewpoints considered racist? People have the right to think what they want and associate with who they wish and form their own opinions whether I disagree with them or not. It is not an Orwellian society where we can control the masses despite the best efforts of CNN and the politically correct types promoting what is essentially cultural marxism.

It's inherently illogical and assists in dehumanising people in order to justify acts of war, terrorism and other atrocities. The American people are free to elect a racist and indeed they have just as we are free to condemn him and ban him from our shores should we so desire. But ultimately, the American right just seems to want freedom for itself. All are free but some are freer than others you might say.

I find it interesting that a Trump supporter seems to have given up on the "not a racist" card. Very interesting indeed.

Doltanian wrote: »

If you tell someone they should do this or that and try and enforce your opinion on others then quiet often they will do the exact opposite. In a free democracy people can do as they wish and support who they like and if the American people were to vote for a racist leader democratically then who are we to judge them.

Nice way to present equality as fascism. Well done. By the way, there are actual Nazis roaming the streets with Trump's blessing.

Doltanian wrote: »

Some people want to be left and alone and do their own things and most really don't give a damn about other peoples judgement and if what they say or do upsets others then usually it gives them a feedback loop.

I'm sure the black victims of racist shootings by the police would dearly love to be left alone as well but as I said, it's just an attempt to justify privilege and atrocities. Would you advocate Islamist hate preachers getting the same treatment? Just being left alone to do as they please? You have equality or what is basically a caste system and it's clear that many, many Trump supporters desperately want the latter.

Doltanian wrote: »

I am merely examining the whole racist mentality, reasons behind and in its position in the American context. I don't condone racism but what I am trying to do is understand it and the reasons for it and these reasons are best addressed rather than dismissed. Having one side shouting racist and claiming the moral high-ground whilst the other may have very genuine grievances which are not racial at all but maybe socio-economic are a much better solution to dialogue between differing and contrasting viewpoints.

It's just odd how so many people just mindlessly condemn liberals while touting the fact that Swamp Inc. is doing better than ever as some sort of achievement. What happened to the conservative narrative doing it for yourself? Why did it get replaced by racism and xenophobia? It's really hard to listen to the same people who condemn those who can't afford healthcare for their bad life choices now play the victim card. Actually, I'll go one further. It's disgusting.

I get your point about understanding racism but hearing both sides (and it is both sides) squawk at each other isn't helping anyone. By voting for Trump, these people chose him to represent them which says a lot about them. We get the "He reached out" view a lot but Bernie Sanders, and Jeremy Corbyn have been pilloried for offering handouts. It's this double standard which makes it hard for me to have any sort of sympathy for these people. Ultimately, they've voted against their own self-interest and have done for generations now. I know a nurse in Ohio who works in a retirement home and the residents there are cheering on Trump to scrap their healthcare provision. At the end of the day, you reap what you sow.

Noel82

Never truer words said!

http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/369961-schumers-shutdown-reveals-democrats-will-destroy-america-just-to-spite

"Never before in American history has a major political party put the interests of lawbreaking foreign nationals ahead of the interests of law abiding Americans. Yet that is exactly what the Democrats have done in holding the government hostage to extract special favors for illegal immigrants.

This is a remarkable achievement — and it’s the only achievement the Democrats can claim since blowing their “sure thing” election in 2016."

Before I saw the username I was reading that post and thought it was referring to Russians rather than kids who were taken to another country and had no say in the matter.

Leroy42

I agree with the above, except that it is clear that Trump and GOP cannot be taken at their word and this is a pinch point that the DNC would be foolish to give up.

Remember that Trump already made a deal back in November before backing out, and seemingly had agreed in principle with Schumer this week only to once again back out.

This after blowing a bipartisan agreement out of the water with the infamous "****hole" meeting.

Given all that, put yourself in the DNC shoes. Would you pass the votes on the basis of a possible future deal? Given that they'll have little leverage once this is passed.

I don't agree with the whole shutdown scenario, but thems the rules and Trump has done nothing to get cross party support at any stage. They rammed the tax bill through, even using it to take a whack on Obamacare.

Trump really backed them into a corner by being such an unreliable negotiation partner.

Even now, Trump is saying no deal on DACA until DNC gives them everything they want.

Noel82

Noel82 wrote: »

Never truer words said!

http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/369961-schumers-shutdown-reveals-democrats-will-destroy-america-just-to-spite

"Never before in American history has a major political party put the interests of lawbreaking foreign nationals ahead of the interests of law abiding Americans. Yet that is exactly what the Democrats have done in holding the government hostage to extract special favors for illegal immigrants.

This is a remarkable achievement — and it’s the only achievement the Democrats can claim since blowing their “sure thing” election in 2016."

Yes it is a remarkable achievement for Trump. He is the first president to preside over a government shutdown while his party controls the House, Senate and White House AND first president to preside over a shutdown on the first anniversary of his inauguration AND earliest shutdown ever in a presidency. so much winning.

Schorpio

Noel82 wrote: »

This is a remarkable achievement — and it’s the only achievement the Democrats can claim since blowing their “sure thing” election in 2016."

Well then, I must have dreamed the Dems claiming a seat an Alabama - or to use your terminology, a Republican "sure thing".

dudara

Noel82 wrote: »

Never truer words said!

http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/369961-schumers-shutdown-reveals-democrats-will-destroy-america-just-to-spite

"Never before in American history has a major political party put the interests of lawbreaking foreign nationals ahead of the interests of law abiding Americans. Yet that is exactly what the Democrats have done in holding the government hostage to extract special favors for illegal immigrants.

This is a remarkable achievement — and it’s the only achievement the Democrats can claim since blowing their “sure thing” election in 2016."

The Republicans need to get their own house in order before seeking to put the blame elsewhere. But hey, it's always easier to pin the blame elsewhere rather than looking in the mirror.

Noel82

Leroy42 wrote: »

Even now, Trump is saying no deal on DACA until DNC gives them everything they want.

How do you know that? Schumer said in his address he "put the border wall on the table" and Trump rejected it. Did he offer full funding for the wall, or did he only offer something like 10% of funding because that's what I've been reading online.

This is all on the Democrats imo, the legislation for the DACA recipients doesn't need to be addressed until March so shutting down the Government in January makes little sense to me besides being a crass political stunt.

Personally I think people who fall under DACA should be dealt with on a case by case basic, those who contributed to society and have kept their noses clean should be allowed to stay, those who have leeched or have committed serious crime ( not parking tickets ) should be deported. It would be a long process but I think it's the fairest solution.

Deporting all of them is cruel but keeping all of them is equally stupid imo.

Schorpio

Noel82 wrote: »

How do you know that? Schumer said in his address he "put the border wall on the table" and Trump rejected it. Did he offer full funding for the wall, or did he only offer something like 10% of funding because that's what I've been reading online.

This is all on the Democrats imo, the legislation for the DACA recipients doesn't need to be addressed until March so shutting down the Government in January makes little sense to me besides being a crass political stunt.

Equally you/we don't know what was being proposed in relation to DACA. So your point is illogical.

What we do know is that the Republicans hold a majority in all branches of government - only missing the supermajority - and is run by a self-professed 'dealmaker'. And yet, we have a Government shutdown earlier than ever in a presidency.

For Forks Sake

Noel82 wrote: »

Never truer words said!

http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/369961-schumers-shutdown-reveals-democrats-will-destroy-america-just-to-spite

BY TOMMY HICKS, JR., OPINION CONTRIBUTOR — 01/21/18 06:30 AM EST

Yeah, I think I'll be needing someone with slightly more credibility than a Trump bagman.

Noel82

Schorpio wrote: »

Equally you/we don't know what was being proposed in relation to DACA. So your point is illogical.

What we do know is that the Republicans hold a majority in all branches of government - only missing the supermajority - and is run by a self-professed 'dealmaker'. And yet, we have a Government shutdown earlier than ever in a presidency.

Your point in blaming Trump is illogical too then - we don't know what was proposed on either side. It was the Democrats, not Republicans, who voted no in the senate on the funding bill - having a majority means little if it's not enough to reach 60 votes. This is a country where illegals are coined dreamers and residents deplorable - Republicans should take a hard stance on illegal immigration and get it fixed once and for all - I'd like to see a fair resolution that helps the people who are already there but will prevent these problems ever occurring again. Imo if the Democrats really cared about border security the current mess would be avoidable.

pitifulgod

Noel, the Republicans shot down paying serving soldiers... Surely that's as contemptible by your standards? Literally abandoning the troops.

Schorpio

Noel82 wrote: »

Your point in blaming Trump is illogical too then - we don't know what was proposed on either side. It was the Democrats, not Republicans, who voted no in the senate on the funding bill - having a majority means little if it's not enough to reach 60 votes. This is a country where illegals are coined dreamers and residents deplorable - Republicans should take a hard stance on illegal immigration and get it fixed once and for all - I'd like to see a fair resolution that helps the people who are already there but will prevent these problems ever occurring again. Imo if the Democrats really cared about border security the current mess would be avoidable.

Actually, you might want to look at this - a number of Dems voted yes, and a number of Republicans voted no (including Mitch McConnell, who immediately after the No vote was passed blamed the Dems, despite having voted no himself).

The "country where illegals are coined dreamers and residents deplorable" - is an emotive soundbite. Where are US citizens referred to as deplorable? All illegal immigrants are not coined 'dreamers' either. The term relates to a very specific group - and the name is a reference to the DREAM Act bill.

I find it interesting that you claim that the Dems offered something on the Wall, and Trump rejected it. Surely the fact that the Dems offered something shows a willingness to compromise? What willingness to compromise have the Reps shown? Why did Trump straight out reject what was in front of him, rather than propose a counter offer? Also, he stated publicly stated that he would sign whatever was brought to him - a stance he clearly reversed. How is that sort of goalpost shifting constructive in deal-making?

I really am struggling to see how you're blaming the Dems as much as you are. Do me a favour, and try to look at this objectively.

Leroy42

1st off Trump created the DACA issue himself, he could just as easily signed an EO to carry it on, so that is the source of the issue.
2nd, Trump made a deal back in November with the Dems over DACA which he then pulled out of hours later.
3rd, Trump told everyone that he would sign an immigration deal "I'll take the heat" but then completely backtracked when presented with a bill.
He always knew he needed 60 votes yet has spent the entire 1st year of his admin calling the DNC names and losers.
GOP and Trump rammed home a tax bill despite cries from the DNC, because they didn't need them.
So the genesis of this shutdown is a complete lack of trust across the house, caused by Trump.
As I asked before, would you agree to give everything to your negotiating partner if they continually went back on any deal they had made previously? If Trump wants to deal with DACA why not do it now? With that simple simple trade everyone would be happy and Schumer has already stated that DNC are willing to give funding for the wall.
The only scenario, therefore, is that DNC have given way in part but that Trump will only accept a deal without DACA.
That is trumps position, one he knows the DNC will not accept, and so a shutdown is entirely down to Trump. (and an outcome I think he is actually happy with.  Eric came out and stated that a shutdown is good politically for Trump!)

Leroy42

also, even if one isn't prepared to accept that Trump is the cause of this, I assume you know that even Trump blames Trump.
This his talking about the 2013 shutdown being Obamas fault.
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/369756-trumps-comments-blaming-obama-for-2013-government-shutdown-resurface

aloyisious

Noel82 wrote: »

Never truer words said!

http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/369961-schumers-shutdown-reveals-democrats-will-destroy-america-just-to-spite

"Never before in American history has a major political party put the interests of lawbreaking foreign nationals ahead of the interests of law abiding Americans. Yet that is exactly what the Democrats have done in holding the government hostage to extract special favors for illegal immigrants.

This is a remarkable achievement — and it’s the only achievement the Democrats can claim since blowing their “sure thing” election in 2016."

Don is the head of the Govt employing the soldiers. The fault is his and his alone. He won't accept any joint deal worked out by the senators even thougth he's called in the senators for joint meetings and single person meetings. Basically he has been pulling stunts for his own benefit at the expense of Govt employees and the general taxpaying public. All this cant from his mouth is FAKE NEWS....... He's so interested in ****ing over the senate that he'll leave military families on food stamps to survive.

JRant

Leroy42 wrote: »

1st off Trump created the DACA issue himself, he could just as easily signed an EO to carry it on, so that is the source of the issue.
2nd, Trump made a deal back in November with the Dems over DACA which he then pulled out of hours later.
3rd, Trump told everyone that he would sign an immigration deal "I'll take the heat" but then completely backtracked when presented with a bill.
He always knew he needed 60 votes yet has spent the entire 1st year of his admin calling the DNC names and losers.
GOP and Trump rammed home a tax bill despite cries from the DNC, because they didn't need them.
So the genesis of this shutdown is a complete lack of trust across the house, caused by Trump.
As I asked before, would you agree to give everything to your negotiating partner if they continually went back on any deal they had made previously? If Trump wants to deal with DACA why not do it now? With that simple simple trade everyone would be happy and Schumer has already stated that DNC are willing to give funding for the wall.
The only scenario, therefore, is that DNC have given way in part but that Trump will only accept a deal without DACA.
That is trumps position, one he knows the DNC will not accept, and so a shutdown is entirely down to Trump. (and an outcome I think he is actually happy with.  Eric came out and stated that a shutdown is good politically for Trump!)

You are spot on about there being a complete lack of trust between the parties. From Trump's idiotic behaviour while trying to negotiate to the Dems using DACA as a political strategy to bolster their chances in upcoming elections. There was a memo leaked today from the DNC stating that not only was DACA a moral issue but it was imperative for there success in future elections.

Unless there are major changes in how business is done on the Hill then these types of shutdown are going to become more frequent.

StringerBell

It is vitally important imho that the Dems do not budge on this, the other side have shown themselves to be completely untrustworthy when it comes to negotiating and they will not have anything to leverage if they give in. There is no desire whatsoever to build bridges from the leadership in the WH so for want of a better phrase, **** them. This is their mess, let them clean it up. Stand strong in the face of the pressure and do the right thing. Hold these people to account.

In other news Pence has been snubbed by the (downtrodden)Christian groups he wanted to meet to raise their spirits and curry favour. Palestine want nothing to do with the US despite apparent overtures to bring them back to the table, Jerusalem was a red line for them, who could have seen that coming eh?

They want the UN to replace the US.

Leroy42

The problem for the DNC, whilst I agree that they need to take a stand, is the issue they have chosen to take a stand on.

Imagine if FF threatened to collapse the government over treatment of refugees? Sure, people want them looked after but not at the expense of parks closing etc.

Is it being sold as DNC being more worried about illegal immigrants than their own citizens. Of course that it a course and simplistic view, but one which will resonate with many voters.

On the other hand, Trump has shown complete disdain and contempt for any sort of bipartisan ship, has gone out of his way to denigrate the DNC and as such they really have little option.

Pelvis

These people are not refugees, they are for all intents and purposes Americans, raised in the United States. I think you'd be surprised what Irish people would think if the government decided they were going to deport thousands of people who were raised here for no good reason.

Water John

Its DT who has agreed, a few times to a solution for DACA, to subsequently back out of it.
Very hard to deal and trust a deal will stick, with someone who keep reneiging on on agreed discussions. One would have to do the talking, agree, let it be written up and signed, before leaving the room, WTF.

ECO_Mental

Water John wrote: »

Its DT who has agreed, a few times to a solution for DACA, to subsequently back out of it.
Very hard to deal and trust a deal will stick, with someone who keep reneiging on on agreed discussions. One would have to do the talking, agree, let it be written up and signed, before leaving the room, WTF.

El Trumpo doesn't work that way, saying he is the best deal maker in history is rubbish. No matter if you have a signed document or anything his MO in deal making up to now was ignorance and bullyboy tactics. Doesn't matter if you have a contact with Trump he will break it anyway because up to now he generally has. Thats why no Banks will work with him he has broken contracts and deals, wont pay contractors etc etc he is word means nothing, a really despicable human being really.

Leroy42

Pelvis wrote: »

These people are not refugees, they are for all intents and purposes Americans, raised in the United States. I think you'd be surprised what Irish people would think if the government decided they were going to deport thousands of people who were raised here for no good reason.

I am not saying I agree with it, but until they are granted leave to stay in the US, like the current DACA program gives them, then they are illegals.

Take the emotion, or even right or wrong, out of it. On one hand you have Trump claiming that he is trying to MAGA, jobs, pay, bring coal back. Against that you have the DNC whose seemingly No.1 issue is that of the plight of illegals.

Its a PR game and, in terms of my trying to link it to refugees, a poor example I agree, but think of it like this. We currently have a housing crisis. I have yet to see any TD claim that we should bring in more refugees (we bring in a very small amount) and house them all at the expense of those already on the housing list.

Do you really think that is a vote winner? For some yeah, I am sure it would, but many would see that as forgetting our own.

Again, this isn't about whether it is right or wrong, it is what voters will see as where the parties stand. It's not true reflection of course, but that is irrelevant in terms of getting voters

StringerBell

Leroy42 wrote: »

The problem for the DNC, whilst I agree that they need to take a stand, is the issue they have chosen to take a stand on.

Imagine if FF threatened to collapse the government over treatment of refugees? Sure, people want them looked after but not at the expense of parks closing etc.

Is it being sold as DNC being more worried about illegal immigrants than their own citizens. Of course that it a course and simplistic view, but one which will resonate with many voters.

On the other hand, Trump has shown complete disdain and contempt for any sort of bipartisan ship, has gone out of his way to denigrate the DNC and as such they really have little option.

That is where the spin and PR campaigns have to kick in, the Dems have to get the message out there that the fault for this lies in one place and one only. They need to portray the very real feeling that they were backed into a corner, left with no option and have been marginalised and ignored whenever possible.

Basically they have to fight like Republicans and win the narrative as much as win the actual battle.

I firmly believe this is a stand they must make, they have nothing else to use right now.

demfad

Inquitus wrote: »

Golf Links and Hotel Ireland
Hotel and Golf Links Ireland

They are just generic names anyways, we already have Portmarnock Hotel and Golf Links and many others, don't see what is being protected here?

The company I pointed out was one which was registered during Trumps transition but whose name was changed just before its accounts were released.
The CEO for Fusion GPS stated under oath that the Doonbeg accounts showed patterns of money laundering to the value of 100s of millions.
I have no intention of paying the money to read the accounts (it costs money to see) that's someone else's job. But whomever does should start with the company i described above. The name change looks like an attempt to disguise the company before the account release.

The Irish MSM finally caught up with the story:

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/trump-inquiry-hears-claim-of-russian-mafia-money-link-to-doonbeg-1.3361639

demfad

StringerBell wrote: »

That is where the spin and PR campaigns have to kick in, the Dems have to get the message out there that the fault for this lies in one place and one only. They need to portray the very real feeling that they were backed into a corner, left with no option and have been marginalised and ignored whenever possible.

Basically they have to fight like Republicans and win the narrative as much as win the actual battle.

I firmly believe this is a stand they must make, they have nothing else to use right now.

Top Hashtag from Olgino trolls is #schumershutdown


But #Trumpshutdown still winning the twitter battle.

JRant

StringerBell wrote: »

That is where the spin and PR campaigns have to kick in, the Dems have to get the message out there that the fault for this lies in one place and one only. They need to portray the very real feeling that they were backed into a corner, left with no option and have been marginalised and ignored whenever possible.

Basically they have to fight like Republicans and win the narrative as much as win the actual battle.

I firmly believe this is a stand they must make, they have nothing else to use right now.

Unfortunately they are starting to lose the PR battle with that memo leak. It's almost like they just can't help themselves. With the support they had for DACA there was absolutely no need to circulate a message like that.