Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III

StringerBell

Yep unfortunately the democrats tend to fight like democrats.

demfad

JRant wrote: »

Unfortunately they are starting to lose the PR battle with that memo leak. It's almost like they just can't help themselves. With the support they had for DACA there was absolutely no need to circulate a message like that.

What memo leak? The memo was concocted by Trump shill Devin Nunes. He wont even show it to the FBI. When he releases it in a few weeks it will be a major embarrassment to himself and the GOP, just like his 'unmasking' fiasco was.

spacecoyote

JRant wrote: »

Unfortunately they are starting to lose the PR battle with that memo leak. It's almost like they just can't help themselves. With the support they had for DACA there was absolutely no need to circulate a message like that.

As per Demfad, which memo are you referencing?

Manic Moran

I believe it's this one.

http://thegatewaypundit.com/2018/01/leaked-memo-daca-recipients-critical-democrats-future-electoral-success/

There was one on the other side which apparently came out yesterday too.

https://www.axios.com/leaked-doc-the-administrations-take-on-immigration-deal-1516365044-f93c1935-8a28-4d47-9322-8cd841162ba4.html

These people are not refugees, they are for all intents and purposes Americans, raised in the United States. I think you'd be surprised what Irish people would think if the government decided they were going to deport thousands of people who were raised here for no good reason.

True, and, like most of the US population, I'm in favour of giving them a permanent status as well, although unlike the Democrats, I do believe that significant effort must be made to close the Southern border. However, until that happens, note that the "D" in "DACA" stands for "Deferred", as in, "put off until a later date", and is not to be inferred as guaranteeing anything at all. That later date, right now, appears to be March.

Again, here's the reality of electoral politics aside of the human cost. This DACA stance is playing very nicely in areas where folks are going to vote for the Democrats anyway. It's going to reinforce the Republican-leaning folks, maybe undoing some of the Trump damage. Given that the polling is 54% to 34% nationwide saying "DACA should not / should be a reason to shut down the government", I suspect it's going to be doing more harm than good in the swing states.

It seems to me that the Democrats are playing for funding. They have cash cows in areas like San Francisco and Seattle. DACA allows them to build their war chest, in the hopes that the money they get can be used to overturn any sentiment swing in the swing states.

mcmoustache

Is this the memo that Nunes, other republicans, r/the_donald and bots are harping on about? The one that alleges Obama DOJ and FBI of wrong-doing? The one that Nunes has the power to release?

This is theater. This is Republicans demanding the release of a memo that they can release whenever they want.

Even the hashtag #releasethememo begs the question - who is preventing its release?

mcmoustache

Manic Moran wrote: »

I believe it's this one.

http://thegatewaypundit.com/2018/01/leaked-memo-daca-recipients-critical-democrats-future-electoral-success/

There was one on the other side which apparently came out yesterday too.

https://www.axios.com/leaked-doc-the-administrations-take-on-immigration-deal-1516365044-f93c1935-8a28-4d47-9322-8cd841162ba4.html

Thanks for that. I thought he was talking about the other memo controversy from a few days ago.

Itssoeasy

https://floor.senate.gov/MediaPlayer.php?publish_id=20

A link to watch the vote in the senate to see whether the US government will reopen.

StringerBell

demfad wrote: »

What memo leak? The memo was concocted by Trump shill Devin Nunes. He wont even show it to the FBI. When he releases it in a few weeks it will be a major embarrassment to himself and the GOP, just like his 'unmasking' fiasco was.

Really? I've been busy with work and haven't actually fact checked this yet, just gave it credibility cause, you know, democrats

StringerBell

Senate has reached some compromise to end the shutdown I see on CNN, Fate of the Dreamers to be addressed "immediately" is a quote they have attributed to Schumer.

Doesn't seem to actually be anything of substance though, nothing on paper, nothing set in stone. You would worry it has been a pointless "stand"

The initial feeling is that they have bottled it, this will actually split the Democrats by the looks of it. I'll hold off till I look into it more

Vote passed 81-18.

oscarBravo

StringerBell wrote: »

Senate has reached some compromise to end the shutdown I see on CNN, Fate of the Dreamers to be addressed "immediately" is a quote they have attributed to Schumer.

Doesn't seem to actually be anything of substance though, nothing on paper, nothing set in stone. You would worry it has been a pointless "stand"

The initial feeling is that they have bottled it, this will actually split the Democrats by the looks of it.

Depending how it pans out, it could turn out to have been a good strategy. If there's a joint statement from Schumer and McConnell to the effect that the Dreamer issue will be dealt with satisfactorily in due course, then the Democrats will be seen to have held out on a point of principle, but not to the point of bloody-mindedness that the Republicans have done in the past. At that point, the pressure is on the GOP to actually deliver on whatever they've promised. If they don't, they've handed the DNC the perfect excuse for refusing to budge when the next impasse rolls around.

Itssoeasy

oscarBravo wrote: »

Depending how it pans out, it could turn out to have been a good strategy. If there's a joint statement from Schumer and McConnell to the effect that the Dreamer issue will be dealt with satisfactorily in due course, then the Democrats will be seen to have held out on a point of principle, but not to the point of bloody-mindedness that the Republicans have done in the past. At that point, the pressure is on the GOP to actually deliver on whatever they've promised. If they don't, they've handed the DNC the perfect excuse for refusing to budge when the next impasse rolls around.

Three weeks from now. This CR is only for three weeks so we could be back to the same place in mid February.

jobbridge4life

oscarBravo wrote: »

Depending how it pans out, it could turn out to have been a good strategy. If there's a joint statement from Schumer and McConnell to the effect that the Dreamer issue will be dealt with satisfactorily in due course, then the Democrats will be seen to have held out on a point of principle, but not to the point of bloody-mindedness that the Republicans have done in the past. At that point, the pressure is on the GOP to actually deliver on whatever they've promised. If they don't, they've handed the DNC the perfect excuse for refusing to budge when the next impasse rolls around.

Aren't they still left at the mercy of Trump though? And the WH has just said he won't sign the Graham-Durbin compromise. So that will leave the Dreamers with 17 days before they are subject to deportation. I'm leaning strongly to the folded to early side of the fence here. Hope I'm wrong.

Itssoeasy

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Aren't they still left at the mercy of Trump though? And the WH has just said he won't sign the Graham-Durbin compromise. So that will leave the Dreamers with 17 days before they are subject to deportation. I'm leaning strongly to the folded to early side of the fence here. Hope I'm wrong.

Is that because neither man was praising the president over how he didn't handle this shutdown ? Also senator graham called out Steven miller and seeing it's hinted it's trump staff that pull him back when he seems to be trying to make a deal, that can't have gone down well.

everlast75

Just 3 chapters from the end of Wolff's book and Bannon is actually coming across as something approaching likeable!??!?!

Headshot

everlast75 wrote: »

Just 3 chapters from the end of Wolff's book and Bannon is actually coming across as something approaching likeable!??!?!

Wolff did say he liked Bannon.

JRant

Manic Moran wrote: »

I believe it's this one.

http://thegatewaypundit.com/2018/01/leaked-memo-daca-recipients-critical-democrats-future-electoral-success/

There was one on the other side which apparently came out yesterday too.

https://www.axios.com/leaked-doc-the-administrations-take-on-immigration-deal-1516365044-f93c1935-8a28-4d47-9322-8cd841162ba4.html



True, and, like most of the US population, I'm in favour of giving them a permanent status as well, although unlike the Democrats, I do believe that significant effort must be made to close the Southern border. However, until that happens, note that the "D" in "DACA" stands for "Deferred", as in, "put off until a later date", and is not to be inferred as guaranteeing anything at all. That later date, right now, appears to be March.

Again, here's the reality of electoral politics aside of the human cost. This DACA stance is playing very nicely in areas where folks are going to vote for the Democrats anyway. It's going to reinforce the Republican-leaning folks, maybe undoing some of the Trump damage. Given that the polling is 54% to 34% nationwide saying "DACA should not / should be a reason to shut down the government", I suspect it's going to be doing more harm than good in the swing states.

It seems to me that the Democrats are playing for funding. They have cash cows in areas like San Francisco and Seattle. DACA allows them to build their war chest, in the hopes that the money they get can be used to overturn any sentiment swing in the swing states.

Thanks Manic, that is exactly what I was referring too. Probably should have put a link to it in my original post but I assumed it was common knowledge, my bad.

You've hit the nail on the head regarding swing states, the others will have just reinforced their existing positions.

Stheno

Could someone explain what's going on in relation to the dreamers? Does their right to stay in the US end soon if there is no change in legislation?

Thanks

jobbridge4life

Stheno wrote: »

Could someone explain what's going on in relation to the dreamers? Does their right to stay in the US end soon if there is no change in legislation?

Thanks

On March 5/6 if there is no legislative act (or executive order) Dreamers become subject to deportation in the same way as any other illegal immigrant.

Stheno

jobbridge4life wrote: »

On March 5/6 if there is no legislative act (or executive order) Dreamers become subject to deportation in the same way as any other illegal immigrant.

Is that due to an executive order Trump signed a few months ago?

Professor Moriarty

Stheno wrote: »

Could someone explain what's going on in relation to the dreamers? Does their right to stay in the US end soon if there is no change in legislation?

Thanks

I think I read recently that Trump gave a six month stay on legislation and this stay is due to expire soon.

Here you go.

Itssoeasy

Stheno wrote: »

Is that due to an executive order Trump signed a few months ago?

Yes.

jobbridge4life

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

I think I read recently that Trump gave a six month stay on legislation and this stay is due to expire soon.

Here you go.

I think it is important to point out that Trump granted the six month stay, as he rescinded the Obam era EO that protected Dreamers. He eliminated the protection and provided a six month window for legislation. He said send me a bill, I'll take the heat and sign it. Then because he is a such an stable genius he completely betrayed that pledge.

Itssoeasy

jobbridge4life wrote: »

On March 5/6 if there is no legislative act (or executive order) Dreamers become subject to deportation in the same way as any other illegal immigrant.

Which I find ridiculous situation as the Dreamers were brought there by their parents and know nothing else bar the USA. It's one thing to come to the US as an adult illegally, as you knowingly broke the law but the dreamers were kids.

So when I heard one commentator say when asked what he'd say to the dreamers which was to "go home" I was confused as to many of the dreamers the USA is their home. When you listen to them talk they sound as American as any other American to my mind. I don't get it. It's a popular thing amongst the American people so why doesn't the United States congress act on the will of the American people ?

Pepefrogok

I am as right-wing as they come but I agree that DACA needs settled, can't send people who have spent their whole lives there "home" but this must be done as a compromise on border security and chain migration! Can't just allow the same problem to build up every few years, though I don't think it would be to controversial to say the democrats would like the votes it brings, their own recent memo makes this clear.

jobbridge4life

Pepefrogok wrote: »

I am as right-wing as they come but I agree that DACA needs settled, can't send people who have spent their whole lives there "home" but this must be done as a compromise on border security and chain migration! Can't just allow the same problem to build up every few years, though I don't think it would be to controversial to say the democrats would like the votes it brings, their own recent memo makes this clear.

Schumer offered full funding for 'the Wall', funding for improved border security elsewise. There was almost full capitulation from the Democrats and Trump still refused it.

What about someone who migrated extra-legally at 18 and has lived, worked, contributed, in the US for decades? Do they not also deserve some degree of protection? Of recognition.

Professor Moriarty

Pepefrogok wrote: »

I am as right-wing as they come but I agree that DACA needs settled, can't send people who have spent their whole lives there "home" but this must be done as a compromise on border security and chain migration! Can't just allow the same problem to build up every few years, though I don't think it would be to controversial to say the democrats would like the votes it brings, their own recent memo makes this clear.

Yeah, cos it isn't like the GOP are puppets of big business or anything, dontcha know. They're all God-fearing, principled politicians just like their boss, The Donald.

jobbridge4life

https://twitter.com/jaketapper/status/955537752803762176

Looks like the D is going full on for my theory.

This was an attempt (successful) to portray the Democrats as weak and unprincipled.

Pepefrogok

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Schumer offered full funding for 'the Wall', funding for improved border security elsewise. There was almost full capitulation from the Democrats and Trump still refused it.

What about someone who migrated extra-legally at 18 and has lived, worked, contributed, in the US for decades? Do they not also deserve some degree of protection? Of recognition.

Any links to support full funding for the wall being offered? And yes, ibwould support people who were brought in without choice by their parents and have spent a lifetime there, but I have no sympathy for people who broke the law by their own violation.every country, not just America need immigration laws.

jobbridge4life

Pepefrogok wrote: »

Any links to support full funding for the wall being offered? And yes, ibwould support people who were brought in without choice by their parents and have spent a lifetime there, but I have no sympathy for people who broke the law by their own violation.every country, not just America need immigration laws.

http://uk.businessinsider.com/government-shutdown-schumer-wall-funding-for-daca-trump-deal-2018-1?r=US&IR=T

So, a man who immigrated at 18. Went on to earn his keep, started a business, married, raised his children in America educated his children in America, employed people, lived and obeyed the laws in America for several decades should be treated as a common criminal?

Where is the profit for America in that? Other than satiating the basest elements of society Pepe

JRant

Pepefrogok wrote: »

Any links to support full funding for the wall being offered? And yes, ibwould support people who were brought in without choice by their parents and have spent a lifetime there, but I have no sympathy for people who broke the law by their own violation.every country, not just America need immigration laws.

I think it's a fairly reasonable position to take. Those children have known no other home, to uproot them would be beyond cruel.

For the 18+ who entered the country either illegally or by over staying visas then it becomes a minefield. If they have been contributing to society and don't have a criminal record then it should be on a case by case basis.

The main problem, as I see it, is that millions of people during the same time period have actually gone through the extremely arduous process of getting citizenship legally. Why would anyone bother going through that if there is going to be this type of amnesty every decade or so.

There is a moral responsibility of government to reward good behaviour and not let "law breakers" be seen to get an easy win.

It's an incredibly complex situation and to see both sides using it as bargining tool really cheapens those people's plight.