Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III

Mumha

aloyisious wrote: »

It seem's the game may have stepped up a pace. CNN is reporting a Washington Post story that Rob Mueller raised the possibility of a subpoena being served on President Trump, which may to have led to a breakdown in talks. Apparently the President's lawyer got angry. The report mentioned that Giuliani had taken charge of the president's legal team. There's also mention that some-one in the GOP has come up with the idea that D/AG Rod Rosenstein should be impeached. Apparently the mention of a subpoena was in early March for him to appear before a grand jury/ I can imagine how that would upset Don, being called before a jury.

Edit: From the sublime to the ridiculous. According to Don's former doctor, Dr Bornstein, Don dictated the wording of the letter from him in 2015 about Don's excellent health. Dr Bornstein says his offce was raided and Don's medical records were seized. Don's representatives say they had a team visit the Dr's office and took the records with the Dr's agreement. Dr Bornstein, im a videod interview shown on CNN, described himself as feeling raped [apparently as a result of the inciden]. t As for the actual letter iself and the way it was put together, the legality mught be in doubt.

Even apart from the letter, Bornstein may have walked himself into trouble by not reporting the illegal removal of Trump's records. Hopefully Schiller gets picked up by the FBI for this.

VinLieger

The doctor whose office was raided by trump goons is now claiming or rather confirming what we all already knew, that the letter he "wrote" prior to the election stating that trump would be the healthiest president to ever sit in the oval office was dictated by trump. Considering the language in the letter it was pretty bloody obvious but good to have confirmation all the same.

I do find it funny again that trump is so oblivious to his own bizarre and erratic speech patterns he thought that dictating this letter and having a doctor read it wouldnt be obvious as hell they were simply speaking his words.

Mumha

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

A more centre, left and moderate right needs to form in America.

It does indeed. Centrists should get radical about their centrism ! Centrist inertia has allowed the margins far more space than is healthy for a democracy.

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Trump has been an open moderate up until around 2013 and maybe just maybe his job is an act to totally expose the fascist undercurrent in America and make it unpalatable. A risky strategy because it could consume him before he can stop it but let's hope November will signal the end of this 'Gilead' wannabe regime for good. To quote Bob Dylan, they think they have god on their side these Republican hardliners but they don't. They are the most evil force on the planet because they are in charge of the most influential country on the planet.

Forget about Trump's political philosophy, he is an empty vessel. The only story in that is he got short shrift from the Democrats, and initially from the Republicans before they went "all in". While this is a terrible time for democracy in the US, it may be the straw that broke the camel's back. This has been building for 50 years when the Republican Party embraced the white southern Democrats, Trump is only the vessel that has finally brought their white supremacist hate into government.

Mumha

VinLieger wrote: »

The doctor whose office was raided by trump goons is now claiming or rather confirming what we all already knew, that the letter he "wrote" prior to the election stating that trump would be the healthiest president to ever sit in the oval office was dictated by trump. Considering the language in the letter it was pretty bloody obvious but good to have confirmation all the same.

I do find it funny again that trump is so oblivious to his own bizarre and erratic speech patterns he thought that dictating this letter and having a doctor read it wouldnt be obvious as hell they were simply speaking his words.

Yes it was obvious, and Bornstein was unwise to have taken part in it.

Jennifer Rubin of WaPo made a very interesting point on Chris Hayes's programme that Ronny Jackson, in his WH medical report to the press, said that he did not have access to Trump's previous medical history. And this is one year after Schiller raided Bornstein's office to take Trump's medical records away.

One extra thing that now comes into view is whether Trump dictated to Jackson too, and was there a quid pro quo with the VA job?

Leroy42

VinLieger wrote: »

The doctor whose office was raided by trump goons is now claiming or rather confirming what we all already knew, that the letter he "wrote" prior to the election stating that trump would be the healthiest president to ever sit in the oval office was dictated by trump. Considering the language in the letter it was pretty bloody obvious but good to have confirmation all the same.

I do find it funny again that trump is so oblivious to his own bizarre and erratic speech patterns he thought that dictating this letter and having a doctor read it wouldnt be obvious as hell they were simply speaking his words.

One must remember the context of the letter. It was done around the time that HC was struggling and IIRC just after she had fainted whilst getting into her car. So this letter was used to promote the idea that not only was Trump fit for office, but by extension that HC was not.

It will of course be passed off as 'banter', 'locker-room talk' or simply part of the campaign, but it is clear that it was an outright lie. He, along with the doctor, conspired to defraud the US citizens.

If anyone thinks that a man that would so easily do something like this wouldn't take advantage of information provided by Russia for his advantage then they are not using their own logic.

VinLieger

Mumha wrote: »

One extra thing that now comes into view is whether Trump dictated to Jackson too, and was there a quid pro quo with the VA job?

So trump is obsessed with saying he has great genes, that therefore his kids also have great genes, he's said it in interviews many many times..... what did Jackson mention during his chat with the media after trumps medical review? That he has great genes.......

Peregrinus

Mumha wrote: »

Yes it was obvious, and Bornstein was unwise to have taken part in it.

Jennifer Rubin of WaPo made a very interesting point on Chris Hayes's programme that Ronny Jackson, in his WH medical report to the press, said that he did not have access to Trump's previous medical history. And this is one year after Schiller raided Bornstein's office to take Trump's medical records away.

One extra thing that now comes into view is whether Trump dictated to Jackson too, and was there a quid pro quo with the VA job?

There could only have been a quid pro quo if Trump (and indeed also Jackson) knew that the VA job was going to become vacant because Trump's first nominee would be shamed into resigning by the disclosure of his corruption and venality.

Mumha

Peregrinus wrote: »

There could only have been a quid pro quo if Trump (and indeed also Jackson) knew that the VA job was going to become vacant because Trump's first nominee would be shamed into resigning by the disclosure of his corruption and venality.

There are at least some questions for a potential investigation to put pressure on Jackson.

markodaly

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

Not surprised you are confused when you encounter a small bit of logic or should I say a small bit of illogical thought.

I believe ALL what I type and am informed enough to see what is sick about the Republican Party,

You can say you believe all you want, I am not buying it. Your over use of the word 'Gilead' portrays a sense of insecurity and doubt, which you seek to cover up by strident fanaticism of the opposite side of the spectrum.

As with Margaret Atwood's Gilead v a 'Gilead' style regime, Trump's dangerous experiment with courting extremists may not 100% copy Duterte but Duterte is someone this current hardline American regime look up to.

Ah, so backtracking again. Trump is like the Bible, only a fool would take it/him literally.

The current excuse of a regime in America that any decent thinking Americans should overthrow in any way possible is without exaggeration a caricature of Margaret Atwood's Gilead and I am sure many other examples of dystopias in fiction.

Including violence, bombings, assassin attempts, kinda what happened in The Handmaid's tale? Oh the irony!!
Do you advocate the use of violence so?

I've never read 1984 but I'm sure that world would also echo the world of the current vile American regime.

Have you read Margaret Atwood's, The Handmaid's Tale, I doubt it.

I've read David Brinn's The Postman and the Holnists are another variant on this regime gone too far. The moral of the story is this regime needs to be STOPPED BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE. Trump and others who can need to be made to see they are a THREAT TO THEM too. Fact is often stranger than fiction and this regime may end up worse than Gilead, Holnist America, 1984, etc. Trump is hardly going to survive a purge of individuals seen by the Christian rightwing fascists as unworthy due to his REAL views. Trump needs to wake up to the Pandora's Box he has opened that could consume him and usher in something he never intended and has no power to stop unless he acts now. He needs to be told and he needs to listen. Trump is more Hindenburg than Hitler

Jaysus, step away from a TV/laptop and go for a walk, smell the fresh air. The Conspiracies are in your head.

mcmoustache

Peregrinus wrote: »

There could only have been a quid pro quo if Trump (and indeed also Jackson) knew that the VA job was going to become vacant because Trump's first nominee would be shamed into resigning by the disclosure of his corruption and venality.

Remember those 49 questions regarding obstruction and conspiracy from yesterday? The one we thought might have been questions from Mueller that got transcribed and leaked by Team Trump?

It appears now that these weren't so much direct questions from Mueller but more of a list that Jay Sekulow thought would be asked based on Mueller's lines of inquiry.

In the wake of the testy March 5 meeting, Mueller’s team agreed to provide the president’s lawyers with more specific information about the subjects that prosecutors wished to discuss with the president. With those details in hand, Trump lawyer Jay Sekulow compiled a list of 49 questions that the team believed the president would be asked, according to three of the four people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk publicly. The New York Times first reported the existence of the list.

This is a small difference but we don't know how many of these were based on Mueller questions and how many were based on Trump's legal team's knowledge of events. In other words, Mueller might not have asked some of those but instead, those questions may have been thought up by Sekulow based on what he thought Mueller might know based on the conversation and his own knowledge of what went on.

An example with no basis in fact would be "What did you know about campaign outreach to Russia?". Mueller might not have said anything about campaign outreach but Sekulow would still need to prepare Trump for that question being asked if there was in fact campaign outreach to the Russians that he knew about. This was after all a list of questions that Sekulow thought could be asked and not a list handed to him by Mueller.

This story still seems to be developing so everything I wrote could be wrong in a few hours.

oscarBravo

markodaly wrote: »

Trump is like the Bible, only a fool would take it/him literally.

Unfortunately the USA has a terrifyingly high percentage of fools who do, indeed, take the bible literally. Unsurprisingly, there's a fairly strong overlap between that group and Trump voters - and they seem happy to take him literally too.

That is, the things he says that they agree with. When he says things they disagree with, which he inevitably does because he contradicts himself with every other breath, they rationalise it in whatever way they need to.

All that aside, there's something mind-boggling about the idea that the best defence of the President of the United States is "ignore him, he doesn't mean anything he says."

Have you read Margaret Atwood's, The Handmaid's Tale, I doubt it.

I have. Unusually among TV adaptations of novels, it's a faithful enough rendition that it's not unreasonable to draw comparisons from the TV show without having read the book.

amandstu

mcmoustache wrote: »

Remember those 49 questions regarding obstruction and conspiracy from yesterday? The one we thought might have been questions from Mueller that got transcribed and leaked by Team Trump?

It appears now that these weren't so much direct questions from Mueller but more of a list that Jay Sekulow thought would be asked based on Mueller's lines of inquiry.



This is a small difference but we don't know how many of these were based on Mueller questions and how many were based on Trump's legal team's knowledge of events. In other words, Mueller might not have asked some of those but instead, those questions may have been thought up by Sekulow based on what he thought Mueller might know based on the conversation and his own knowledge of what went on.

An example with no basis in fact would be "What did you know about campaign outreach to Russia?". Mueller might not have said anything about campaign outreach but Sekulow would still need to prepare Trump for that question being asked if there was in fact campaign outreach to the Russians that he knew about. This was after all a list of questions that Sekulow thought could be asked and not a list handed to him by Mueller.

This story still seems to be developing so everything I wrote could be wrong in a few hours.

If it was Trump's legal team that leaked this,what could be their motive?

Mumha

amandstu wrote: »

If it was Trump's legal team that leaked this,what could be their motive?

The consensus appears to be for Sekulow to put it out there and then for Trump to see all these voices on tv tell him that he'd be mad to agree to answer those questions in an interview. They think there'd be a better chance Hannity or Fox & Friends would convince him not to agree to an interview with Mueller.

VinLieger

Mumha wrote: »

The consensus appears to be for Sekulow to put it out there and then for Trump to see all these voices on tv tell him that he'd be mad to agree to answer those questions in an interview. They think there'd be a better chance Hannity or Fox & Friends would convince him not to agree to an interview with Mueller.

The problem they have is his ego though, all the arguments against him answering the questions revolve around "Mueller will trick you" which trump will likely read as people saying "Mueller is smarter than you" which as the donald knows isnt possible as he's the smartest person he knows..... and he will need to prove that if everyone's saying he isn't by advising him not to answer the questions.

amandstu

Mumha wrote: »

The consensus appears to be for Sekulow to put it out there and then for Trump to see all these voices on tv tell him that he'd be mad to agree to answer those questions in an interview. They think there'd be a better chance Hannity or Fox & Friends would convince him not to agree to an interview with Mueller.

If it was shown this was true (that they had leaked them) would there be any legal consequences ?

VonZan

oscarBravo wrote: »

Unfortunately the USA has a terrifyingly high percentage of fools who do, indeed, take the bible literally. Unsurprisingly, there's a fairly strong overlap between that group and Trump voters - and they seem happy to take him literally too.

That is, the things he says that they agree with. When he says things they disagree with, which he inevitably does because he contradicts himself with every other breath, they rationalise it in whatever way they need to.

All that aside, there's something mind-boggling about the idea that the best defence of the President of the United States is "ignore him, he doesn't mean anything he says." I have. Unusually among TV adaptations of novels, it's a faithful enough rendition that it's not unreasonable to draw comparisons from the TV show without having read the book.

The USA is full of people that hold quite dangerous and abhorrent views but that's on both sides. However, these mass generalisations of people who voted for Trump are pretty nauseating.

Making dangerous assumptions and demonising people only strengthens their beliefs and resolve. Also, there is something called the backfire effect which proves that challenging people with contradictory but factual evidence is a useless task as we are inherently stupid in critical evaluation unless you have a lot of self-discipline. The majority of all population sample sizes are pretty poor at understanding their own unconscious biases. Conformity bias also plays a huge roll. You are also under estimating the people who voted for Trump simply out of protest against the perceived political establishment and how unlikable HRC was.

oscarBravo

VonZan wrote: »

The USA is full of people that hold quite dangerous and abhorrent views but that's on both sides.

That cute little "on both sides" catchphrase is getting quite the workout lately.

However, these mass generalisations of people who voted for Trump are pretty nauseating.

I didn't make a mass generalisation about Trump voters. I talked about the overlap between people who take the bible literally and people who take Trump literally.

You are also under estimating the people who voted for Trump simply out of protest against the perceived political establishment and how unlikable HRC was.

I can forgive any of those people if they look back and realise how catastrophically stupid their decision was.

Sure, Clinton was unlikeable. If you think that that makes her as bad as a psychotic malignant narcissist kleptocrat, there's probably not a coherent argument in the world that could persuade you otherwise.

amandstu

oscarBravo wrote: »

That cute little "on both sides" catchphrase is getting quite the workout lately. I didn't make a mass generalisation about Trump voters. I talked about the overlap between people who take the bible literally and people who take Trump literally. I can forgive any of those people if they look back and realise how catastrophically stupid their decision was.

Sure, Clinton was unlikeable. If you think that that makes her as bad as a psychotic malignant narcissist kleptocrat, there's probably not a coherent argument in the world that could persuade you otherwise.

Seemingly "sicko" to be added to "psycho" now.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-43970908

FatherTed

Meanwhile, on MAGA:

...Earlier on Monday the Treasury said net borrowing totaled $488 billion from January through March, a record for that period and about $47 billion more than it had previously estimated, according to a statement released in Washington. The end-of-March cash balance was $290 billion, compared with an initial estimate of $210 billion.
The U.S.’s need to issue more Treasuries is expected to grow as the fiscal picture deteriorates. The budget deficit widened to $600 billion halfway through the fiscal year, as spending increased at three times the pace of revenue growth in the October-to-March period, according to Treasury figures released earlier this month.
Tax and spending measures approved by Congress and President Donald Trump are expected to push the budget gap to $804 billion in the current fiscal year, from $665 billion in fiscal 2017, and then surpass $1 trillion by 2020, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-30/treasury-s-488-billion-in-borrowing-sets-a-first-quarter-record

mcmoustache

amandstu wrote: »

If it was Trump's legal team that leaked this,what could be their motive?

The NYT said that it wasn't given to them by his legal team. Technically, it could have even leaked via Dowd without knowledge of Trump or his legal team although I doubt that to be the case.

Assuming that his legal team or someone else in his orbit got it out, the theory I've heard that makes most sense is to have something that Trump can point at to claim that Mueller is exceeding his authority and scope.

The theory about this being put out to give people a heads-up and get their stories straight would be more convincing if not for the fact that those questions were all consistent with facts that are in the public domain with the exception of "Trump campaign reaching out to the Russians". Then again, that in itself may be enough of a reason to get it out there - it was known that Russia reached out, not that the campaign reached out. There I go contradicting my first sentence with the rest of the paragraph.

everlast75

Over the last day or so, it came out that Cob had a meeting with Mueller, in which a Subpoena was mentioned. Cob responded angrily and then left Trump's team.

Again, recently there were rumours of impeachment for Rosenstein by Trump supporters in government. He replied over the weekend with strong rhetoric saying that the Justice department would not be extorted.

Then Trump tweets this...

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/991669454823141376

It sounds like he is winding up to have a proper go at the justice department and/or the Mueller team. The next 24 hours should be interesting...

Igotadose

FatherTed wrote: »

Meanwhile, on MAGA:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-04-30/treasury-s-488-billion-in-borrowing-sets-a-first-quarter-record

David Stockman's been on about this for awhile. He said the chicken's really come home to roost in October. Annoying China won't help the US find customers for its debt. And, *surrrre* I'm going to believe someone in Trump's admin about how great things are, especially odious Mr. Mnuchin.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/14/kudlow-and-trump-will-sleepwalk-into-a-tremendous-fiscal-collision.html

(a bit dated. I didn't realize Kudlow worked for Stockman back in the day when Kudlow was an addict working out of the West Wing.) The fox business videos on youtube with Stockman aren't bad.

Leroy42

I see that Apples numbers came out yesterday and roughly in line with expectations. But the telling part to me is that they are proposing a $100bn share buy back and to increase dividends to shareholders.

Surely, based on Trumps tax model, all that should be going into workers pockets..

Now of course you'll get the usual nonsense that this is a way to get money into peoples pockets, but very few of the low and lower-middle income would have shares and as such this will mostly benefit those in the financial position to invest, i.e. those already with available resources.

So what we have, as was mentioned at the time, is that the corporations are going to use this tax reduction windfall to give more money to those that already have it, paid for by those that don't.

As FatherTed's post above shows, there is going have to be some serious cost reductions from the government in the near future (my bet is that nothing will be done before the mid-terms) in order to reduce the cost of this tax bill.

And being good with money, a great business man, was supposed to be his key attribute!

mcmoustache

everlast75 wrote: »

Over the last day or so, it came out that Cob had a meeting with Mueller, in which a Subpoena was mentioned. Cob responded angrily and then left Trump's team.

Again, recently there were rumours of impeachment for Rosenstein by Trump supporters in government. He replied over the weekend with strong rhetoric saying that the Justice department would not be extorted.

Then Trump tweets this...

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/991669454823141376

It sounds like he is winding up to have a proper go at the justice department and/or the Mueller team. The next 24 hours should be interesting...

I think you mean Dowd, not Cobb.

Leroy42

I honestly can't believe that so little is being made of the story that Trump dictated his own doctors cert.

If it is discussed at all it is in the space of almost a joke. Here, yet again, we have a person who is quite happy to lie and defraud and to bend the rules. Not only that, but he has people around him willing to defend him.

Why does anybody think that this man can be trusted on anything when he would lie about something like that. Of course the guy is going to lie to cover his tracks, we have a clear example of it.

amandstu

Leroy42 wrote: »

I honestly can't believe that so little is being made of the story that Trump dictated his own doctors cert.

If it is discussed at all it is in the space of almost a joke. Here, yet again, we have a person who is quite happy to lie and defraud and to bend the rules. Not only that, but he has people around him willing to defend him.

Why does anybody think that this man can be trusted on anything when he would lie about something like that. Of course the guy is going to lie to cover his tracks, we have a clear example of it.

Yes I wondered how much space that story would attract.

Perhaps those with an axe to grind (ie anyone with any integrity) worry that it might distract from even bigger and more central issues and and also contribute to sleaze fatigue...

everlast75

mcmoustache wrote: »

I think you mean Dowd, not Cobb.

Sorry. In my defence (no pun intended), he does have an awful lot of lawyers.

I think that matters have come to a critical point however.

Trump likes to think of himself as an alpha male and Rosenstein's comments were a challenge IMHO

everlast75

Leroy42 wrote: »

I honestly can't believe that so little is being made of the story that Trump dictated his own doctors cert.

If it is discussed at all it is in the space of almost a joke. Here, yet again, we have a person who is quite happy to lie and defraud and to bend the rules. Not only that, but he has people around him willing to defend him.

Why does anybody think that this man can be trusted on anything when he would lie about something like that. Of course the guy is going to lie to cover his tracks, we have a clear example of it.

I agree - and this tweet adequately reflects my feelings on it (and says it much better too).

Especially relevant is the fact that he made such an issue of Hillary's health

https://twitter.com/danpfeiffer/status/991675627613831168?s=19

everlast75

Anyone else feel like its all about to kick off?

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/991690248399794176?s=19

robinph

Leroy42 wrote: »

I honestly can't believe that so little is being made of the story that Trump dictated his own doctors cert.

Maybe some thing are just so obviously wrong in every conceivable way that the media feel they don't even need to try to explain the wrongness of it to the cult of Trump followers, and are saving their efforts for other things. Meanwhile it can just be added to the pile of wrongdoings and be brought up later if need be.