Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III

Nody

Nody wrote: »

Here some views from experts on the deal; remember Trump is the master of the deal so US should clearly come out better...

Robert E Kelly is professor for International Relationships at Pusan National University
https://twitter.com/Robert_E_Kelly/status/1006454074777198598

Two more Trump concessions just in this presser: stopping US-S Korea military exercises and hope to withdraw US troops from SK. And what have we gotten from NK for these? STOP GIVING STUFF AWAY for nothing.


Those aren't really concessions though, are they? They're a pathway to peace. North Korea gains zero benefit and still have massive sanctions.

Nody

Deleted User wrote: »

Two more Trump concessions just in this presser: stopping US-S Korea military exercises and hope to withdraw US troops from SK. And what have we gotten from NK for these? STOP GIVING STUFF AWAY for nothing.


Those aren't really concessions though, are they? They're a pathway to peace. North Korea gains zero benefit and still have massive sanctions.

What peace? First of all one of the major reasons for NK not to attack SK was the fact the American army was there in force to stop them. Secondly by stopping doing exercises together US weakens its position in the region in general while NK and China get to grow accordingly.

In short Trump has said "I'll give up regional power here for you to take in return you don't have to do anything".

listermint

Deleted User wrote: »

Each side will always do it. What's your point?

My point is if its Trump doing it your all for it, if it was Obama your not.

Thats hypocritical, and ridiculous.


Im also intrigued by sides ? Trump is not your president, and i think the majority in here do not like him because of his impact on Global relations rather than entirely his domestic policies.

The man is a cad, but as far as 'sides' go im always bewildered when an irish person has a 'side' with Trump....

Nody

Nody wrote: »

What peace? First of all one of the major reasons for NK not to attack SK was the fact the American army was there in force to stop them. Secondly by stopping doing exercises together US weakens its position in the region in general while NK and China get to grow accordingly.

In short Trump has said "I'll give up regional power here for you to take in return you don't have to do anything".

If that's how you want to see it, I can't change that.

listermint

listermint wrote: »

My point is if its Trump doing it your all for it, if it was Obama your not.

Thats hypocritical, and ridiculous.

What the hell are you talking about?

Quotes or apologise.

Leroy42

It is true that it is a pathway to peace, but they are clearly concessions.

The US has demanded NK disarm prior to holding any talks up until now. Under Trump not only have they conceded that, they have also agreed to pulling out of the peninsula altogether. The statement said denuke of the peninsula, not simply NK. It is a major difference.

In saying that, it is clearly a price worth paying. But what will SK think of US basically upping sticks and leaving?

But to try to paint it as some great deal by Trump is simply not true. I agree with him doing this btw, but lets not pretend that Trump has somehow landed an incredible victory. What he should be given credit for is having the balls to give up on all the conditions that stopped this from happening in previous years.

And the US taken such a stance earlier, it could be argued that NK would have never felt the need to develop the weapons in the 1st place.

Nody

Deleted User wrote: »

If that's how you want to see it, I can't change that.

Read the actual agreed text; read the expert opinions on the subject. I'm not pulling things out of thin air here for fun; I've yet to see anyone who's actually said this is a big step forward. All Trump has done is to agree to pull back forces and not have military exercises there while acknowledging NK as a nuclear nation (not done previously by US), agree that NK will only remove nukes on a global scale along Russia & US (i.e. never) and make some vague promises about future deals without even touching on for example the ballistic missile program (you know one of the major reasons to pull out of the Iran deal except NK can actually shoot to US mainland with their program) or monitoring of NK nuclear program (second claimed reason for US pulling out of the Iran deal with it being not effective enough).

Hence yes; in short Trump has given up several items while getting nothing back and claiming victory.

Leroy42

Leroy42 wrote: »

It is true that it is a pathway to peace, but they are clearly concessions.

The US has demanded NK disarm prior to holding any talks up until now. Under Trump not only have they conceded that, they have also agreed to pulling out of the peninsula altogether. The statement said denuke of the peninsula, not simply NK. It is a major difference.

In saying that, it is clearly a price worth paying. But what will SK think of US basically upping sticks and leaving?

But to try to paint it as some great deal by Trump is simply not true. I agree with him doing this btw, but lets not pretend that Trump has somehow landed an incredible victory. What he should be given credit for is having the balls to give up on all the conditions that stopped this from happening in previous years.

And the US taken such a stance earlier, it could be argued that NK would have never felt the need to develop the weapons in the 1st place.

Who are you arguing with here?

Nody

Nody wrote: »

Read the actual agreed text; read the expert opinions on the subject. I'm not pulling things out of thin air here for fun; I've yet to see anyone who's actually said this is a big step forward. All Trump has done is to agree to pull back forces and not have military exercises there while acknowledging NK as a nuclear nation (not done previously by US), agree that NK will only remove nukes on a global scale along Russia & US (i.e. never) and make some vague promises about future deals without even touching on for example the ballistic missile program (you know one of the major reasons to pull out of the Iran deal except NK can actually shoot to US mainland with their program) or monitoring of NK nuclear program (second claimed reason for US pulling out of the Iran deal with it being not effective enough).

Hence yes; in short Trump has given up several items while getting nothing back and claiming victory.

You are aware that if this actually works out, today was the start of a process? Stopping the exercises and aiming for a removal of troops would have to happen no matter what. What could Kim have realistically agreed to today to make it "even"?

Your entire post sounds like you think this is the work done and Trump and Moon will walk away.

Phonehead

So US withdrawal of military for just the promise of denuclearization (keeping in mind that we effing knew his testing program was gone after the mountain caved in) Kim just hit a home run

listermint

Deleted User wrote: »

What the hell are you talking about?

Quotes or apologise.

Apologies ? You said 'so what' thats what different sides do..


So you basically said you are all for Trump having these meetings but obama not. Did you even read the post you responded to?

I dont believe you did.


Il wait for my apology.... or not. im not too bothered really.

listermint

listermint wrote: »

Apologies ? You said 'so what' thats what different sides do..


So you basically said you are all for Trump having these meetings but obama not. Did you even read the post you responded to?

I dont believe you did.


Il wait for my apology.... or not. im not too bothered really.

You've got a severe lack of comprehension skills.

Phonehead

Phonehead wrote: »

So US withdrawal of military for just the promise of denuclearization

The troops are going nowhere.

Podge_irl

Phonehead wrote: »

So US withdrawal of military for just the promise of denuclearization (keeping in mind that we effing knew his testing program was gone after the mountain caved in) Kim just hit a home run

They haven't promised denuclearization. They've reaffirmed a commitment to work towards it, which basically means nothing.

Christy42

The US will not pull out of South Korea. They will stop doing military exercises. North Korea had effectively already given up on missile tests (until it gets a new base up and running).

This is the end of it. This is the start of a long road. Trump certainly did not get a win out of this. That potential comes later. Trump got nothing but the start of dialogue. NK got the start of a dialogue they always wanted and the US to stop the shows of power in the region.

Very little gained or lost from either side. Not surprising from a few weeks of negotiations between officials.

Certainly it feels like North Korea got more out of it (as in something) but a very minor victory. Over reactions on either side are not really warranted.

Not a disaster for either side but it certainly shows up the Fox news hypocrisy who lambasted Obama for suggesting a similar summit (and indeed for achieving far more with Iran).

Hopefully it leads to more.

weisses

Deleted User wrote: »

The troops are going nowhere.

And Kim is not giving up his nukes .. ever

So what is actually achieved ?

listermint

Deleted User wrote: »

You've got a severe lack of comprehension skills.

Il award that particular trophy to yourself.

I shall ask again in simpler terms.

If NK had done similar nuclear testing back in Obamas day and Obama had gone off to summit such as this. Would you have changed your tune and been 'pro summit' or not.

Now your previous post was that so what if id be against it, different sides.


Have you changed your position or is it still the same answer?

Leroy42

Deleted User wrote: »

Who are you arguing with here?

Deleted User wrote: »

The best thing the Democrats and CNN could do today would be to congratulate Trump on his achievement. Immediately, their other criticisms would regain an audience. Most people ignore it because it's all negative even though America is booming and people are happy./QUOTE]

You are saying that people should give credit to Trump. I am pointing out that Trump hasn't achieved very much at all.

weisses

weisses wrote: »

And Kim is not giving up his nukes .. ever

So what is actually achieved ?

What's the point in even trying to answer. I'll just join you guys.

**** TRUMP. AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

RobertKK

Time will ultimately decide how successful this summit was, for the world we all hope it is a success.

The status quo towards North Korea has been a failure up to now, so lets hope this new approach actually works, too soon to know the real outcome, but to be talking and shaking hands is always better than alternatives which include war.

Phonehead

Ok, so essentially no more Military exercises for a commitment to consider denuclearization. I wasn't a fan of Obama but he'd be crucified for such a terrible outcome.

Nody

Deleted User wrote: »

You are aware that if this actually works out, today was the start of a process? Stopping the exercises and aiming for a removal of troops would have to happen no matter what. What could Kim have realistically agreed to today to make it "even"?

Your entire post sounds like you think this is the work done and Trump and Moon will walk away.

You mean the same way "if it has worked" in the previous programs and deals with NK? You know the same deals that NK has broken every time? Can you please share what makes this deal struck with US so special compared to the previous deals that were broken? Is it that Trump is seen as a trustworthy leader who sticks to his deals? Or that Trump is seen as a calm negotiator that ensures that both parties are happy? Or perhaps that Trump has been consistent in his message with NK? Seriously; do please share what makes this deal special that it will suddenly work when all previous deals have failed sooner or later due to NK ignoring their side of the deals.

listermint

Christy42 wrote: »

The US will not pull out of South Korea. They will stop doing military exercises. North Korea had effectively already given up on missile tests (until it gets a new base up and running).

This is the end of it. This is the start of a long road. Trump certainly did not get a win out of this. That potential comes later. Trump got nothing but the start of dialogue. NK got the start of a dialogue they always wanted and the US to stop the shows of power in the region.

Very little gained or lost from either side. Not surprising from a few weeks of negotiations between officials.

Certainly it feels like North Korea got more out of it (as in something) but a very minor victory. Over reactions on either side are not really warranted.

Not a disaster for either side but it certainly shows up the Fox news hypocrisy who lambasted Obama for suggesting a similar summit (and indeed for achieving far more with Iran).

Hopefully it leads to more.

And there in lies the key.

1 President achieves a huge amount of diplomacy and gets through brokerage manages to achieve great concessions and some stability in the region.

Another tears that same deal down and gets nothing out of another deal and he lauded.


Strange times.

Nody

Nody wrote: »

You mean the same way "if it has worked" in the previous programs and deals with NK? You know the same deals that NK has broken every time? Can you please share what makes this deal struck with US so special compared to the previous deals that were broken? Is it that Trump is seen as a trustworthy leader to sticks to his deals? Or that Trump is seen as a calm negotiator that ensures that both parties are happy? Or perhaps that Trump has been consistent in his message with NK?

Yeah, **** Trump. Useless ****.

Banned for trolling.

aloyisious

It's funny peculiar that Don might have paved the way for a greater degree of war-unreadiness on the Korean Peninsula with the undiplomatic way he's out-dictated [or bullied] Kin into submission, that Kim met a US leader prepared to swing the stick and let it be known openly.
I don't trust Don and reckon there's a chance that he did what he did regardless of the chance he'd be called on it, especially by a dictator who, going by Don's stated intent, had nothing to lose by going to actual war with the US. The Chinese have been [apparently] very quiet lately in regard to NK and it's future. I suppose it may be the 10-year planning way they do things, thinking along to the 2nd next US presidential election sitter-in-the-W/H and how things are fluid.

If there actually is a peace out of all the shouting, and Don's stick-waving mention today on more sanctions on NK, I hope Don doesn't spoil it all by a tweet out of nowhere insulting Kim and/od the Chinese and wrecking all the groundwork by his fellow US citizens, and Korean citizens on the 38th parallel. That would almost be par for the course for Don, a throwaway remark on twitter.

RIGOLO

According to CNN the sanctions stay in place. 
The UN Security council approved sanctions, the ones signed off by Russia and China stay in place until 'denuclearisation' is confirmed. 

So Kim has won nothing yet until he delivers on the agreement. Trump still holds the best hand. 
Its early days folks, people should get some perspective on how these things work, and also on the timeframe. It will be weeks and months for this to work through, only then can final judgment be passed.  
Theres also reports Trump pitched the idea of 'hotels and resorts' to Kim. What a guy, you gotta luv that, in the midst of the biggest negotiations in US- NK relations in 55 years, Trump ever the successful buisnessman tells Kim he has some great locations to setup a few hotels to capture the China and SK market..

Leroy42

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, **** Trump. Useless ****.

You need to calm down. Nobody is saying this.

people are questioning the outcome, it is Trump himself that is claiming it is great, many of his supporters claiming he deserved a Noble simply for turning up.

Most posters,(there might be one of two I skimmed over) have shown a very measured response. They are glad it happened, hopeful that something can develop, but question the fact that we have two clearly untrustworthy leaders.

And claiming that something will happen in time. The US has already give Kim the 1st thing he wanted. Surely Trump should have got something in return? This is the greatest deal maker ever (according to him) so people are rightfully asking where the benefit is.

We know the negatives with Trump, and many Trump supporters claim that the negatives are worth it for what he brings. Like with the tax plan, it seems that Trump deals are about costs up front and placing trust in his promises.

Nody

Deleted User wrote: »

Yeah, **** Trump. Useless ****.

Care to actually answer the question of why Trump's deal is special and will somehow be followed when all previous deals have not been followed? I mean you're the one claiming that this is a big deal; I'm the one claiming it's a nothing burger with Trump giving up power and backed up the reasons with facts why I claim this is the case.

I'm calm actually. I just realise this is pointless because three or four posters, including yourself see me as a caricature, and are attributing things to me I never said or meant.

No Nody, I don't. I hate Trump now. Your points were astonishingly effective.

Phonehead

In all due respect Ads, when people ask you for backup to support your claims you can't always just fallback on **** trump*** useless. I genuinely want to understand what I am missing and want Trump supporters to explain, i want you to explain as I most likely do have unconscious bias towards Trump.