Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III

Christy42

Gbear wrote: »

Personally I think the massive undermining of the Mexican state by creating and maintaining a drug war for puritanical or cynical, profit-driven reasons is a bigger issue than trade.

Whatever about having a roof over my head, I wouldn't want to stick around in a place where drug barons murder people by the thousands.

Trump has, I believe, made some noise about supporting states rights to end prohibition, but as with anything he says, you can't really take it on faith. Sessions has been vocally against it, and as a religious fanatic, I'm sure Pence isn't keen either.

He has also made some noise about supporting the Philippine policy of executing drug dealers I believe.

https://www.google.ie/amp/amp.timeinc.net/fortune/2018/02/26/trump-dealth-penalty-capital-punishment-drug-dealers-duterte

Phonehead

I can't believe some people are trying to justify what is happening to these poor children. It's a Disgusting act and is deplorable to defend.

Nox

The real problem is the illegal parents trying to dump their kids on us.  The parents are the problem … where is their responsibility in this?

jooksavage

It's depressing how, no matter what Trump does, no matter how far he veers outside the bounds of human decency, a certain cohort will agree with everything he says and does. That means that Trump is a bona fide genius who gets it note perfect every time or those people are willing to set aside their empathy, common sense and moral compass / religious convictions in order to be at one with the POTUS on every issue.

ELM327

Nations have a right to border security.
Ship them back is surely a better more cost effective solution... or am I missing something?

(Trump supporter and conservative)

LuckyLloyd

Nox wrote: »

The real problem is the illegal parents trying to dump their kids on us.  The parents are the problem … where is their responsibility in this?

The real problem is people in the US think like you in large numbers. There was a time when the US was a shining beacon in the world. That time is clearly gone.

ELM327

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

The real problem is people in the US think like you in large numbers. There was a time when the US was a shining beacon in the world. That time is clearly gone.

I see what you're saying but the parents are the ones bringing the alien minors to the country both illegally.


Under current law the parent can be detained in a holding cell until their asylum claim is heard but the child is a minor and cannot be detained
The white house press secretary said yesterday that this was an implementation of the current law which was applied (albeit in lesser numbers) by previous administrations.


The law needs to change. Either detain everyone in an appropriate condition (eg like direct provision) or ship them all back.


My preference would be to ship them all back. You can't turn a blind eye or you'll be overrun like what's happening in Europe (particularly central and southern) at the moment.

Captain Obvious

ELM327 wrote: »

Nations have a right to border security.
Ship them back is surely a better more cost effective solution... or am I missing something?

(Trump supporter and conservative)

They want to prosecute them first.

Leroy42

And that is the point Elm. The current admin has made the decision that rather than put in place systems to either house the family until the process is complete or to send them straight back, they have opted not to bother with any of that and simply the option that they feel will stop the flow at all.

They are failing to do either of the right things. Posters on here have asked do the parents not be held responsible, and yes they are and boy are they paying a massive price. But what about the responsibility of the admin, or the US itself. Do US citizens not feel that they should have some responsibility for people in their country? That they can't simply separate families.

And cleary the entire process is lacking. Stories of parents being sent back but the child being left for a few days. Older kids having to help look after younger kids. Why cages? Have they set aside the requisite social services? What about other family members? What attempts are made to find other family members?


But instead we have POTUS, as usual, blaming everyone else. The man who 'tells it like it is' who keeps telling lies. Its all the democrats fault. What can a POTUS possibly do with laws that were already passed. If only there was some way for him to change the laws. Maybe they should invent an position that would allow somebody to do that. Like a Prime Minister or something.

BonnieSituation

I was listening to Morning Ireland earlier and they had some audio of children crying in a detention centre. How in all that is holy can anyone think this is an acceptable way to treat children? It's vile.

"It's like an orchestra"- a federal agent.
Absolutely vile

listermint

ELM327 wrote: »

I see what you're saying but the parents are the ones bringing the alien minors to the country both illegally.


Under current law the parent can be detained in a holding cell until their asylum claim is heard but the child is a minor and cannot be detained
The white house press secretary said yesterday that this was an implementation of the current law which was applied (albeit in lesser numbers) by previous administrations.


The law needs to change. Either detain everyone in an appropriate condition (eg like direct provision) or ship them all back.


My preference would be to ship them all back. You can't turn a blind eye or you'll be overrun like what's happening in Europe (particularly central and southern) at the moment.

Humanity knows no bounds,


For some.


I feel warm inside that you can sit here pontificating from your privileged Irish position. Must make people feel warm inside too. Not too long ago we ourselves were shipping off on boats to the far corners of the world.

never forget that fella! All that good stuff you have today in this land, its because of them.

Quin_Dub

ELM327 wrote: »

Nations have a right to border security.
Ship them back is surely a better more cost effective solution... or am I missing something?

(Trump supporter and conservative)

Leroy42 wrote: »

And that is the point Elm. The current admin has made the decision that rather than put in place systems to either house the family until the process is complete or to send them straight back, they have opted not to bother with any of that and simply the option that they feel will stop the flow at all.

They are failing to do either of the right things. Posters on here have asked do the parents not be held responsible, and yes they are and boy are they paying a massive price. But what about the responsibility of the admin, or the US itself. Do US citizens not feel that they should have some responsibility for people in their country? That they can't simply separate families.

And cleary the entire process is lacking. Stories of parents being sent back but the child being left for a few days. Older kids having to help look after younger kids. Why cages? Have they set aside the requisite social services? What about other family members? What attempts are made to find other family members?


But instead we have POTUS, as usual, blaming everyone else. The man who 'tells it like it is' who keeps telling lies. Its all the democrats fault. What can a POTUS possibly do with laws that were already passed. If only there was some way for him to change the laws. Maybe they should invent an position that would allow somebody to do that. Like a Prime Minister or something.

This is the key point Leroy.

It's not that they are implementing the law so much it's that they made the change in policy in such a callous cavalier way.

No advance preparation for the change in approach
No consideration for how it would be managed
No communication on the changes

And when it starts to get the bad press such a shambles rightly deserves they lie through their teeth and blame everyone but themselves.

Any country is indeed entitled to manage it's borders however they see fit within the confines of International law (although whether keeping children in cages in disused Walmart warehouses meets that standard is questionable) but it is also incumbent on them to plan properly for how they are going to do it..

It's also worth noting that this treatment of families and children is a deliberate ploy by the hardliners in the Trump administration (Miller as the prime mover) to try to force the Democrats to sign off on funding for the Wall.

The whole "It's the Democrats fault , they could change the law" actually means "Give me what I want or the kid gets it"

Is this what the US has become , threatening children (regardless of where they come from or how they got there) with pain & suffering to achieve a political goal?

jooksavage

Heard that audio this morning before i dropped our one-year-old girl off to the childminder. I'm still sick to my stomach.

bodice ripper

LuckyLloyd wrote:

The real problem is people in the US think like you in large numbers. There was a time when the US was a shining beacon in the world. That time is clearly gone.

Oh it still is, in much the same way a lighthouse shows you dangers to avoid...

Wanderer78

Is America moving a step closer to civil war, it's doing an exceptional job of isolating itself though

Water John

There is a whole section of GOP Senators who have publicly spoken out against the policy. Hurd (R) Texas was particularly well spoken.
It's those closest to the issue in Texas etc, that are very much opposed to the policy. Easy to implement policy, when your'e far away from it.
BTW, we have detention centres here which, whilst they don't separate families, are no gold model.

ELM327

listermint wrote: »

Humanity knows no bounds,


For some.


I feel warm inside that you can sit here pontificating from your privileged Irish position. Must make people feel warm inside too. Not too long ago we ourselves were shipping off on boats to the far corners of the world.

never forget that fella! All that good stuff you have today in this land, its because of them.

Bearded leftism knows no bounds.
What I have I worked for, and it is nothing to do with anyone migrating from Ireland.


But I digress as this is not relevant to the issue at hand.


PS: I am not " privileged "

LuckyLloyd

Water John wrote: »

There is a whole section of GOP Senators who have publicly spoken out against the policy. Hurd (R) Texas was particularly well spoken.
It's those closest to the issue in Texas etc, that are very much opposed to the policy. Easy to implement policy, when your'e far away from it.
BTW, we have detention centres here which, whilst they don't separate families, are no gold model.

Our Direct Provision system could be amended and improved, there's no doubt about that. But we're not impinging upon basic human rights like the US are here.

ELM327

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Our Direct Provision system could be amended and improved, there's no doubt about that. But we're not impinging upon basic human rights like the US are here.

Our direct provision system (other than time delays in processing) is perfectly adequate.


One would argue that such a system should be implemented in the US.

Blowfish

LeinsterDub wrote: »

I honestly don't think America cares or at least elected Republicans don't care.

Muslim ban, guns massacres nearly daily, EPA being dismantled, healthcare being stripped from the poor. I could go on.

In general I'd absolutely agree with you, but the one thing that may make this slightly different is the number of religions speaking out and opposing this.

Sessions and SHS used the bible to defend what they are doing, only for 20 different religions to turn around and contradict them. You even have Methodist Clergy bringing church charges against Sessions now.

Religion is the one thing that Republicans will generally claim that they put above all else, now we truly get to see if that is the case or if it's all bull.

Wanderer78

Blowfish wrote:

In general I'd absolutely agree with you, but the one thing that may make this slightly different is the number of religions speaking out and opposing this.

Americans care alright, but democratic governance is required to change their country, so change may take some time

Leroy42

Blowfish wrote: »

Religion is the one thing that Republicans will generally claim that they put above all else

Trump has completely disabused that notion.

Religion was a useful excuse but when the decision time came they opted to put aside their religion in preference to their agendas.

Igotadose

ELM327 wrote: »

Our direct provision system (other than time delays in processing) is perfectly adequate.


One would argue that such a system should be implemented in the US.

It's a matter of scale, of course. US gets more immigration pressure than Ireland.

Nothing, however, excuses separating children from parents. Nothing. Period. And putting kids up in tent cities in the Texas desert is a crime against humanity.

Today's temperature there is expected to reach 103F/39.4C, 0% precip. Kids stuck out in tents there without their parents.

Professor Moriarty

ELM327 wrote: »

Bearded leftism knows no bounds.
What I have I worked for, and it is nothing to do with anyone migrating from Ireland.


But I digress as this is not relevant to the issue at hand.


PS: I am not " privileged "

Could you explain what you mean by "Bearded leftism"? Could you identify any examples who fall under your definition?

listermint

ELM327 wrote: »

Bearded leftism knows no bounds.
What I have I worked for, and it is nothing to do with anyone migrating from Ireland.


But I digress as this is not relevant to the issue at hand.


PS: I am not " privileged "

Bearded... Leftism, Is that a pocket response you learned from the Journal ?

1st. You are entirely Privileged, you were born into a country that offers up some of the best starts in life on earth. You benefited from Free Education right up to 3rd level, you benefit from our Social services (despite im sure you believing that you dont actually take any of them you do) everyone does.
You benefited from an economical , social and meteorological climate that is stable and does not suffer from extremes.

To claim that you are not privileged is beyond laughable.


And ive no doubt you worked hard to do or be whatever you are today, but dont dare believe that the structures in place to make sure you got there and bascially helped you along the way were not out of those that went before us all.


It seems some peoples bubbles stop at their front gate and this nonsense is becoming more prolific in the Social Media style me feiner last decade.

jooksavage

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Could you explain what you mean by "Bearded leftism"? Could you identify any examples who fall under your definition?

Here you go

Wanderer78

listermint wrote:

1st. You are entirely Privileged, you were born into a country that offers up some of the best starts in life on earth. You benefited from Free Education right up to 3rd level, you benefit from our Social services (despite im sure you believing that you dont actually take any of them you do) everyone does. You benefited from an economical , social and meteorological climate that is stable and does not suffer from extremes.

'free', it kinna has a very different meaning in reality!

Blowfish

Water John wrote: »

There is a whole section of GOP Senators who have publicly spoken out against the policy. Hurd (R) Texas was particularly well spoken.

That's just their standard brow furrowing, 'deeply concerned' comments, while still toeing the party line. They have every opportunity now to prove their words by backing the Democrats Keep Families Together Act but, unsuprisingly none of them have.

Leroy42 wrote: »

Trump has completely disabused that notion.

Trump worships Trump and nothing else.

Leroy42 wrote: »

Religion was a useful excuse but when the decision time came they opted to put aside their religion in preference to their agendas.

For the GOP politicians I'd agree, along with the newer 'alt-right MAGA' bunch. I'm not so sure about the older evangelical crowd. I do wonder if there is a breaking point for them if their pastors start speaking out against Trump.

Leroy42

Blowfish wrote: »

That's just their standard brow furrowing, 'deeply concerned' comments, while still toeing the party line. They have every opportunity now to prove their words by backing the Democrats Keep Families Together Act but, unsuprisingly none of them have.

Trump worships Trump and nothing else.

For the GOP politicians I'd agree, along with the newer 'alt-right MAGA' bunch. I'm not so sure about the older evangelical crowd. I do wonder if there is a breaking point for them if their pastors start speaking out against Trump.

There was breaking points aplenty prior to the election, and certainly plenty since. They have given Trump a 'mulligan' on all these as long as he continues their agenda.

The notion that religion, and at the heart of it morals and a christian belief system, is in any way a driver of how these people act or want those representing them to act is complete nonsense.

It is a ruse to cover for their agenda, and not having to take responsibility for it. Its not that they don't care about X, but the bible says Y so what choice do they have.

Mancomb Seepgood

Younger evangelicals appear to have a different view of the Republican party than their older counterparts:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2018/06/southern-baptists-call-off-the-culture-war/563000/

Despite the fact that the SBC includes the likes of Robert Jeffress,there does appear to be hope for the future.