Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III

Danzy

Christy42 wrote: »

The point of the left was not and is not to only help those less fortunate if they have the right birth location. Anyone claiming to be left while being happy with children locked in over crowded cages is having a laugh (oh and didn't Hillary win with low income voters?).

Honestly though I don't care what label you put on it. My own sense of morality tells me throwing little kids in over crowded cages and laughing at their cries is morally horrific. I don't care what your background is.

Outside of the Magdeline laundries and Ireland in Ireland I don't think these views have been mainstream in Europe for quite some time.

Nor is it to provide grist to Neoliberalism, ape the righteousness of a 1950s Priest while growing fat and rich.

Until that changes Left wing parties, of all hues will continue to sink in to electoral obscurity.

Are you laughing at these children?

Danzy

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Probably a lot worse things to come from this administration, god only knows what they ll get up to in their second term

It is the Pence years 2024 -2032 that I'm more concerned about.

Billy Mays

26000 Elephants wrote: »

Laura Ingraham on Fox News has described child detention centres as "basically summer camps"

The immorality of the policy is one thing: Its a lot worse to try and defend it.

Child detention centres are summer camps, slave ships were cruise liners etc etc...

Wanderer78

Danzy wrote:

It is the Pence years 2024 -2032 that I'm more concerned about.

Very good point, prepare for scary stuff. Hopefully they can turn things around before that though, or we re all in trouble

Mancomb Seepgood

Christy42 wrote: »

The point of the left was not and is not to only help those less fortunate if they have the right birth location. Anyone claiming to be left while being happy with children locked in over crowded cages is having a laugh (oh and didn't Hillary win with low income voters?).

Honestly though I don't care what label you put on it. My own sense of morality tells me throwing little kids in over crowded cages and laughing at their cries is morally horrific. I don't care what your background is.

Outside of the Magdeline laundries and Ireland in Ireland I don't think these views have been mainstream in Europe for quite some time.

Indeed and any true "conservative" would surely view a government that separates a child from his parents (who haven't even committed a crime) to be a perfect example of overreach and against the sanctity of the family and individual rights.

Trump,his associates and supporters are by and large not conservatives though,they are far-right radicals seeking to sow division and hatred.As evidenced by the comments of some people in this thread they have achieved some success in doing this,and not just in their own country.

Professor Moriarty

Danzy wrote: »

They are terms that we grew up with but they are oblique at this stage and I think they will not last as we knew them, one simple reason being the fading away of the Left as have known it, however they interrelate to each other, the decline is widespread enough to be seen as systemic.

It is multi faceted at this stage. Statist vs Free market, National vs Globalist, Establishment insider vs outsider, the usual class divide.

There are people from the radical right to the radical Left and all in between that can be found in every one of those groups.

The banker and the Socialist will be passionate friends on some and vigorous opponents on others.

Milton Friedman has as much relevance to the modern world as Gramsci, next to none.

I think the new divide is not left or right but populist versus mainstream. This is being played out right across the world, not least with Trump and Brexit. A prime example of this new divide is Italy where two populist parties ousted the mainstream parties to form a coalition between an essentially 'right-wing' League and an essentially 'left-wing' Five Star.

Leroy42

My take on it is not that the left has drifted away as such, moreso that the positions that were once considered to be the left have been accepted by all parties. In the same way that the Green movement appears to have drifted away, it is just that in the main, most people and parties now accept their positions and as such they no longer serve the purpose. Few are going to vote for a purely Green party when the other parties pretty much mirror the green ideas but carry the additional economic and social issues.

The right has become more pronouched as they are forced to take up increasingly extreme positions to gain traction, so they appear to be increasing but the issue for the left is that many of the lead battles, abortion, divorce, equality etc have been largely won and its is thus hard to get people to coalesce around a single issue.

For example, now that the equality ref and abortion ref have both been passed in Ireland it will be hard for those groups to remain as influencial as before simply because the issue is, for the majority, seen as dealt with.

Christy42

Danzy wrote: »

Christy42 wrote: »

The point of the left was not and is not to only help those less fortunate if they have the right birth location. Anyone claiming to be left while being happy with children locked in over crowded cages is having a laugh (oh and didn't Hillary win with low income voters?).

Honestly though I don't care what label you put on it. My own sense of morality tells me throwing little kids in over crowded cages and laughing at their cries is morally horrific. I don't care what your background is.

Outside of the Magdeline laundries and Ireland in Ireland I don't think these views have been mainstream in Europe for quite some time.

Nor is it to provide grist to Neoliberalism, ape the righteousness of a 1950s Priest while growing fat and rich.

Until that changes Left wing parties, of all hues will continue to sink in to electoral obscurity.

Are you laughing at these children?

The guard was laughing at them. You are trying really hard to avoid elephant of the room. You are attempting to argue against people who are opposed to throwing kids in overcrowded cages and you are dodging that point as much as you can (as well you might it is bloody hard to justify horrific actions as much Trump and co. are trying).

eagle eye

Danzy wrote:

Your views are typical of many who self describe as progressive or Left today, and ye wonder why it is electoral disaster after disaster.
The Left is dying as an electoral force in most of the Western World, but especially so among the bottom half of society.

I'm not a supporter of Trump.

I have gone on about him a bit in that I don't agree with the constant barrage of negative press and posts on here about him but I've never been a supporter.

I do think he is an intelligent man though.

I've been pro-democrat for most of my life. I wasn't a fan of Hillary but still hoped that she would get elected. I predicted she would lose even before Republican candidates were known. I thought the only one she might beat was Jeb Bush because it would have become a battle of Royalty instead of an election about the candidates.

I was full on in on Obama but being honest I thought he was a poor President. Bush was horrendous, Clinton was decent even with his failings.

I think you have to go all the way back to Jimmy Carter for the last really good one and he only had one term.

oscarBravo

Christy42 wrote: »

If your philosophy involves torturing kids you have messed up. Can we have that as a rule of thumb?

Of course not. I mean, we could in a civilised country, but we're talking about a country that accepts school shootings as an acceptable price to pay for "freedom". If torturing kids is the price that has to be paid for keeping brown people out of the country, then that's the price that will be paid.

It pains me to say it, because I have American family and several American friends - many of them diehard republicans - but America is over. It's a headless chicken that doesn't know it's dead yet. It may take decades, but I can't see any way back to civilisation for a country that has so completely and comprehensively lost its sh*t as the USA has.

Once a society has collectively decided that opinion - especially mean-spirited, bigoted opinion - is worth more than objective fact, it's hard to see a path to recovery, especially when coupled with toxic religiosity.

listermint

Its this type of unchecked nationalism stoked by populism which leads me to believe there will be another large scale war in the next decade.


Times are troubling.

We have learnt nothing as a species.

Nody

listermint wrote: »

Its this type of unchecked nationalism stoked by populism which leads me to believe there will be another large scale war in the next decade.

Not involving USA; they are way to afraid of losses to make that happen. They will happily go pick on easy targets that they can shoot missiles at or bomb but you'll never see America actually take a real fight short of it being forced on them by invasion or similar. US will be the old man with the fences saying "Trespassers will be shot" and they will defend their country but beyond that it will be proxy wars or minimum soldiers on the ground type of deals letting others die.

The one to keep an eye on is China; they got the forces and will to make battle with a nationalistic population to cheer them on doing it. Now they have no reason to take a fight with for example Russia but I'd not be surprised to see them pick a fight in for example Africa to protect natural resources they need to prop up what ever local tin hat dictator is there or similar.

TomOnBoard

Jeez, Kelly Anne Conway is some witch! Just watched her interview with Chris Cuomo last night on the family separation issue.. Yuck City!

Sierra Oscar

It looks like Trump is taking the US out of the United Nations Human Rights Council.

https://twitter.com/bpolitics/status/1009104345336606720

It makes you wonder where we're heading. The US is certainly heading down a very dark road.

Hurrache

I think the council criticised what's going on so seems like a knee jerk reaction.

Gwen Cooper

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

It looks like Trump is taking the US out of the United Nations Human Rights Council.

https://twitter.com/bpolitics/status/1009104345336606720

It makes you wonder where we're heading. The US is certainly heading down a very dark road.

Oh well. I don't know what I expected anymore.

Sierra Oscar

Hurrache wrote: »

I think the council criticised what's going on so seems like a knee jerk reaction.

Trump has been threatening to do this for ages so it's not hugely surprising, but yeah it does seem to have been triggered by its criticism of the US policy of forcefully breaking up families.

Gwen Cooper wrote: »

Oh well. I don't know what I expected anymore.

Don't rule out anything happening. A sizeable section of the population has become radicalised and it's worsening by the day. If Trump floated the idea of postponing elections in the interest of national security he would still receive significant support, that's how whacky things have become in the US.

weisses

I think it's time to put sanctions on the US demanding they denuclearize ... I mean, Trump and nukes

pixelburp

Well I suppose we've been here before, with another fun episode of "surely THIS is the straw that breaks the camels back??".

Pulling out of the Human Rights Council. I mean. Ugh. Look, I get this is the Politics Forum but I can sorta see why folks resort to gifs because what else can be said?

This has to be - HAS TO BE? - a big red flag for anybody even cautious about Trumps agenda and suitability as head of state? Whatever about things like the Paris Climate Accord and the inevitable politicisation of climate change (be it real or imagined), actually pulling a country out of something demonstrably about the freedoms and liberties humanity should be entitled to feels ... well, I can't think of a word that wouldn't be a little hyperbolic. Autocracy will come and it will be from the mouthes of Sean Hannity and Tucker Carlson. Lord help the USA.

C'mon Rubio, surely even you wouldn't be such a toadie as to nod and smile at such actions? Ah who am I kidding, of course he would.

Professor Moriarty

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

Hurrache wrote: »

I think the council criticised what's going on so seems like a knee jerk reaction.

Trump has been threatening to do this for ages so it's not hugely surprising, but yeah it does seem to have been triggered by its criticism of the US policy of forcefully breaking up families.

Gwen Cooper wrote: »

Oh well. I don't know what I expected anymore.

Don't rule out anything happening. A sizeable section of the population has become radicalised and it's worsening by the day. If Trump floated the idea of postponing elections in the interest of national security he would still receive significant support, that's how whacky things have become in the US.

What is really behind the threatened withdrawal is the constant criticism of Israel. GW Bush's administration boycotted it for three years for much the same reasons.

wes

Trump admin accusing anyone of hypocrisy is pretty rich. He is friendly with regimes that violate Human rights, not to mention his own regime violating Human Rights for his white supremacist agenda.

The US is no longer in any position to call anyone hypocrites in regards to Human rights, when they torture people, and imprison children en masse.

Leroy42

wes wrote: »

The US is no longer in any position to call anyone hypocrites in regards to Human rights, when they torture people, and imprison children en masse.

I think to be fair, and I include myself in this, it has been a long time since the US has been in that position. Trump is merely showing what the real US is like. The likes of Obama and Clinton were simply better at covering it with a nice gloss.

Trump is merely laying out in stark terms what the US has become.

everlast75

Leroy42 wrote: »

I think to be fair, and I include myself in this, it has been a long time since the US has been in that position. Trump is merely showing what the real US is like. The likes of Obama and Clinton were simply better at covering it with a nice gloss.

Trump is merely laying out in stark terms what the US has become.

I agree with 99% of what you post, but i disagree here. Obama and Clinton would not do what Trump, Kelly et al have done here.

Nope.

And I think this will be their undoing. Trump doesn't back down and he will be forced to here or else Reps will be destroyed in Nov.

This has been the worst PR disaster for them and that's saying something

pixelburp

everlast75 wrote: »

I agree with 99% of what you post, but i disagree here. Obama and Clinton would not do what Trump, Kelly et al have done here.

Nope.

And I think this will be their undoing. Trump doesn't back down and he will be forced to here or else Reps will be destroyed in Nov.

This has been the worst PR disaster for them and that's saying something

Haven't we been here before though? By any normal metric of politics, 90% of Trumps behaviour would have had him booted out ages ago(imagine May or Varadker behaving in a fraction of this manner, it's kinda hilarious to imagine May being caught on a hot mic, leering over some hot young PA) be it for gross indecency or obvious ignorance over basic tenets of his job. Yet here we are, he's still surviving, inexplicably, with his supporters now more burrowed in and radical than ever (IIRC even Nixon commanded approx. 35% support around the time of his resignation).

everlast75

pixelburp wrote: »

Haven't we been here before though? By any normal metric of politics, 90% of Trumps behaviour would have had him booted out ages ago(imagine May or Varadker behaving in a fraction of this manner, it's kinda hilarious to imagine May being caught on a hot mic, leering over some hot young PA) be it for gross indecency or obvious ignorance over basic tenets of his job. Yet here we are, he's still surviving, inexplicably, with his supporters now more burrowed in and radical than ever (IIRC even Nixon commanded approx. 35% support around the time of his resignation).

This is a humanitarian disaster with kids.

We have been here with a gun related issue but sadly the NRA have a huge hold on politicians and some of the general public.

My reading is that the disgust is at such a level that there is no excuse. A lot of republicans are very uneasy and a few more losses for the reps combined with opinion polls on this issue will make the self preservation instinct kick in.

Leroy42

everlast75 wrote: »

I agree with 99% of what you post, but i disagree here. Obama and Clinton would not do what Trump, Kelly et al have done here.

Nope.

And I think this will be their undoing. Trump doesn't back down and he will be forced to here or else Reps will be destroyed in Nov.

This has been the worst PR disaster for them and that's saying something

No doubt Trump has turned the level up to 11, but for years the US has been preaching to the rest of the world whilst simultaneously doing the opposite. Their continued unquestioning support of Israel for example. Their demand for free trade from everyone but using their might to force their wants on others. The war on terror, whilst they continue to carry out drone attacks on civilians.

W Bush was the first sign (to me anyway) that the US was going down a bad road, and I thought Obama was the reality. But it turns out that W Bush and Trump really are.

The US has been so wrapped up in fear by the media and politicians that they genuinely feel they are under direct attack, and that now seems to have spread to attack from everywhere.

Far from being the land of the brave, home of the free, it is now the land of the scared, the bully. Anyone who is different is to be shunned and kept away.

pixelburp

pixelburp wrote: »

Haven't we been here before though? By any normal metric of politics, 90% of Trumps behaviour would have had him booted out ages ago(imagine May or Varadker behaving in a fraction of this manner, it's kinda hilarious to imagine May being caught on a hot mic, leering over some hot young PA) be it for gross indecency or obvious ignorance over basic tenets of his job. Yet here we are, he's still surviving, inexplicably, with his supporters now more burrowed in and radical than ever (IIRC even Nixon commanded approx. 35% support around the time of his resignation).

Every now and then I'll see a clip from sometime in the last 18 months (it's been that long already) and be like "Oh yeah, all that stuff happened." Usually in the space of a week. It's absolutely mental that it's still going on but normal rules don't apply.

Phonehead

I just need to take a few days away from this topic! I swear if any of the usual defenders of all things America post some sick twisted defence citing " just applying existing legislation"........there is no way I have the self control to conduct myself in a calm manner or even just ignore their comments.

What is happening to these poor babies is vile and disgusting.

Itssoeasy

So the governors or Maryland and Massachusetts will remove their national guard troops from the southern border because of the situation there.

21 attorneys general have written to Jeff sessions and the DHS secretary asking them to stop the separation of kids from parents.

The united methodists which Jeff sessions is a member of, have brought "church changes" against him for his use of the bible to justify the policy( and it is a policy it's not a law doing this) which may change the AGs mind.

Nothing will change because trump doesn't see there being an issue. He is convinced it's a democratic law so he won't change.

Also, the OIG report in the Hillary Clinton mess that james comey caused is being used to claim there was no collision(the fact it wasn't looking for collusion with trump and Russian) is telling. I heard a clip of him taking about this to the media from last Friday. "Most importantly" and "me" were the points that trump cares about.

Humanitarian disaster.. Concentration camps.. Cages..

I'm not defending what is happening there right now, but this and worse is happening as a result of the US worldwide. Look at the outpour of sympathy when refugees first hit Europe and look at what people think of it now. In a few weeks, no one will care.

I don't know what it is that makes this topic so inflammable right now. It isn't even remotely new there. And it is frankly annoying that parents coming from a non-refugee-status country are bringing their kids into this, compared to the horrors of war that has done this to families in Syria and then the Rohingya in Myanmar.

It just shows how much of a packer of suckers we are for whatever the media is concentrating on.