Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III

Call Me Jimmy

Does anyone have a good source for the numbers that Trump has ramped it up compared to Obama? I assume if there was ever people being detained at the border that kids wouldn't be in adult detention? Or was it a special detention that wasn't technically a jail?

Calina

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Does anyone have a good source for the numbers that Trump has ramped it up compared to Obama? I assume if there was ever people being detained at the border that kids wouldn't be in adult detention? Or was it a special detention that wasn't technically a jail?

You could read this. https://www.facebook.com/thekarenbrown/posts/10215764784460167 As it has some commentary, it might be a starting point.

mcmoustache

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Only if you compare the start of the Trump regime with the Nazis when they were in full swing.

Supposedly, you're not a nazi unless you're actually gassing Jews. And even then, it has to be with Zyclon B.

amandstu

amandstu wrote: »

Well Avenatti is supposedly going to represent some of those involved
in the "Summer Camps". He is a good communicator and I feel he might perhaps do some damage the way things are looking.

https://twitter.com/MichaelAvenatti/status/1009398232290680833

That sort of thing for starters.

relax carry on

Danzy wrote: »

It denigrates what the Nazis did to pretend that though.

For some that is the goal, for others it is just a way to be dramatic, hyperbole.

Hitler and the Nazis didn't wake up one morning and implement the final solution. It was a process which evolved over the 30's into the horror we know.

What I'm seeing is similarities with Hitler and the Nazis in the 30's and the rise of Trump. Trumps administration is moving through its process; to what end I've no idea. It doesn't need to be a carbon copy for people to draw comparisons to Hitler and the Nazis.

Water John

In the old system, you got processed and let in. You were given a future, hearing date. 75% of those turned up for their hearing, that's the reality, against the 3% quoted by Trump.
When the whole WH line was checked, it got a whopping four Pinnochios.

Havockk

A poster on reddit has written a well documented expose that exacerbates a troubling situation even further (if that's even possible).

Worth reading.

https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/8s90f0/trump_doubles_down_as_anger_grows_over_child/e0xlrnx/

amandstu

relax carry on wrote: »

Hitler and the Nazis didn't wake up one morning and implement the final solution. It was a process which evolved over the 30's into the horror we know.

What I'm seeing is similarities with Hitler and the Nazis in the 30's and the rise of Trump. Trumps administration is moving through its process; to what end I've no idea. It doesn't need to be a carbon copy for people to draw comparisons to Hitler and the Nazis.

Does the possible trade war also invite comparisons? Apparently protectionist
policies worsened the Great Depression and our recent crash bore comparison with the Great Depression except for welfare payments being a cushion .

Can you guys please create a list with more than just Hitler? People like Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, Genghis Khan etc.

It would be way more interesting to have various aspects of what he's doing directly compared to more than just one man. Maybe a list of 20 would be good.

Havockk

Deleted User wrote: »

Can you guys please create a list with more than just Hitler? People like Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, Genghis Khan etc.

It would be way more interesting to have various aspects of what he's doing directly compared to more than just one man. Maybe a list of 20 would be good.

Genghis might have been a bit of a scamp, but he was by all accounts really good for the environment.

Captain Obvious

Deleted User wrote: »

Can you guys please create a list with more than just Hitler? People like Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, Genghis Khan etc.

It would be way more interesting to have various aspects of what he's doing directly compared to more than just one man. Maybe a list of 20 would be good.

Interesting you should demand that. If I remember correctly, Pol Pot had a big issue with intellectuals. He didn't like to not be the smartest man in the room. To the extent he had people killed just for wearing glasses. Trump has purged many experts from their positions and ignored scientific studies while at the same time trying to big up his own intelligence. Indeed his policy of going back to the old school coal and steel industries is similar to Pol Pots desire to de-industrialise and return Cambodia to it's previous agricultural state.

Captain Obvious

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Interesting you should demand that. If I remember correctly, Pol Pot had a big issue with intellectuals. He didn't like to not be the smartest man in the room. To the extent he had people killed just for wearing glasses. Trump has purged many experts from their positions and ignored scientific studies while at the same time trying to big up his own intelligence. Indeed his policy of going back to the old school coal and steel industries is similar to Pol Pots desire to de-industrialise and return Cambodia to it's previous agricultural state.

Good stuff. I guess this is comparable to Pot's Year Zero idea.

Can we make any comparisons between King Leopold's treatment of the natives in the Congo with how Trump is treating Mexicans?

mcmoustache

Deleted User wrote: »

Can you guys please create a list with more than just Hitler? People like Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, Genghis Khan etc.

It would be way more interesting to have various aspects of what he's doing directly compared to more than just one man. Maybe a list of 20 would be good.

Why? It sounds to me that you're just annoyed that a lot of people can see Trump for what he is and not for how you'd like him to be.

duckofdeath

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

Does anyone have a good source for the numbers that Trump has ramped it up compared to Obama? I assume if there was ever people being detained at the border that kids wouldn't be in adult detention? Or was it a special detention that wasn't technically a jail?

I saw an interview of the ICE chief made by Wolf Blitzer on CNN yesterday, the ICE guy said they're up to 2,300 children in "summer camps" by now. During the Obama era the detention of children was only used if they had apprehended the parent(s) for a federal crime. Crossing the border illegally is a misdemeanour. They weren't detained in jails, as that's illegal, I think. There were however moments when (a handful) children were locked up in similar warehouse conditions like they are now. Just not in the thousands.

mcmoustache

mcmoustache wrote: »

Why? It sounds to me that you're just annoyed that a lot of people can see Trump for what he is and not for how you'd like him to be.

Eh, what? I just enjoy comparisons. We've had one good one already.

Calina

Deleted User wrote: »

Captain Obvious wrote: »

Interesting you should demand that. If I remember correctly, Pol Pot had a big issue with intellectuals. He didn't like to not be the smartest man in the room. To the extent he had people killed just for wearing glasses. Trump has purged many experts from their positions and ignored scientific studies while at the same time trying to big up his own intelligence. Indeed his policy of going back to the old school coal and steel industries is similar to Pol Pots desire to de-industrialise and return Cambodia to it's previous agricultural state.

Good stuff. I guess this is comparable to Pot's Year Zero idea.

Can we make any comparisons between King Leopold's treatment of the natives in the Congo with how Trump is treating Mexicans?

Well....why don't you go and do it? Or do you want to be spoonfed?

Because otherwise I think you are trying to divert the discussion away from whether in 2018, a civilised country tosses children in cages, having confiscated them from their parents. Arguably due process is not being followed given many of these parents are looking for asylum.

listermint

Deleted User wrote: »

Eh, what? I just enjoy comparisons. We've had one good one already.

Doubt it, It sounds like trying to create side story or distraction. Its a common trait when trying to move away from the central theme of the story.

Trumps policies are under the microscope and draw many common themes with the early start of Nazi party in Germany.

jooksavage

Deleted User wrote: »

Can you guys please create a list with more than just Hitler? People like Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, Genghis Khan etc.

It would be way more interesting to have various aspects of what he's doing directly compared to more than just one man. Maybe a list of 20 would be good.

Maybe one of the reasons the nazi comparison keeps coming up is because he declined to criticize actual nazis last year. He wasn't talking about maoists or the khmer rouge when he talked about "very fine people"

Calina

Calina wrote: »

Well....why don't you go and do it? Or do you want to be spoonfed?

Because otherwise I think you are trying to divert the discussion away from whether in 2018, a civilised country tosses children in cages, having confiscated them from their parents. Arguably due process is not being followed given many of these parents are looking for asylum.

The last few pages have been about Hitler. How could I be diverting discussion, except from Hitler onto other despots?

listermint wrote: »

Doubt it, It sounds like trying to create side story or distraction. Its a common trait when trying to move away from the central theme of the story.

Trumps policies are under the microscope and draw many common themes with the early start of Nazi party in Germany.

I haven't even been posting here. I just read a few pages about Hitler and figured we'd all love to bring in other figures from history.



Anyways, nevermind. Back to the Nazis I guess.

pixelburp

I think it's a fair idea on thinking about it: comparing Trump to the Nazis is obviously fraught with legitimacy problems, by dint of it being such an extreme example of despotism taken to a horrible, apocalyptic Nth degree. Trump's clearly not implementing the final solution, it's hyperbolic - no matter how apt it might be - to anyone not immediately convinced of this administration's antagonism towards its own constitution and basic human decency (again, see the terrible timing of pulling out from the Human Rights Council).

By bringing the discussion around to the ... 'lesser' evils of autocracy such as the rule of Pol Pot and his own anti-intellectual crusade, it might help make more convincing arguments about the dangers of Trump's White House if they're allowed to continue.

But then we have Corey Lewandowski sarcastically going 'womp womp' on TV over disabled children chucked into cages, so maybe I'm giving the Trump diehards more credit than they're due.

Havockk

pixelburp wrote: »

I think it's a fair idea on thinking about it: comparing Trump to the Nazis is obviously fraught with legitimacy problems, by dint of it being such an extreme example of despotism taken to a horrible, apocalyptic Nth degree. Trump's clearly not implementing the final solution, it's hyperbolic - no matter how apt it might be - to anyone not immediately convinced of this administration's antagonism towards its own constitution and basic human decency (again, see the terrible timing of pulling out from the Human Rights Council).

By bringing the discussion around to the ... 'lesser' evils of autocracy such as the rule of Pol Pot and his own anti-intellectual crusade, it might help make more convincing arguments about the dangers of Trump's White House if they're allowed to continue.

But then we have Corey Lewandowski sarcastically going 'womp womp' on TV over disabled children chucked into cages, so maybe I'm giving the Trump diehards more credit than they're due.

The parallels are absolutely striking. Not to mention it's long been theorised that democracy would sooner or later slip toward fascism. It would be genuinely absurd to not be talking about the damn nazis.

seamus

kilns wrote: »

I am talking about appealing to the nation as a whole, how many are prominent on national TV cameras on a daily basis.  Who could you name as the democrat who is standing up to Trump in public challenging him, I dont see any.  Jesus even Stormy Daniels lawyer was better at it

The issue here is that the US political system is completely polarised.

If a democrat stands up and says something is black, the republicans are duty bound to say it's white. They are literally preaching to the choir - democrats will applaud because he's a democrat, republicans will call it bullsh1t because he's a democrat.

And vice-versa for the most part.

Look at this children's concentration camp furore; The republican stance is, "The democrats caused this.", "The liberals are using this for their agenda", "Democrats are giving these kids scripts to read out". We're now at the stage where ethics, morals and truth is irrelevant. The only thing that's important is whether you're one of us, or one of them. The Republicans have tripled-down on this circus and won't call Trump to account under any circumstances.

People like Stormy Daniels are unfortunately the only ones who can make an impact in this environment because she's distinctly non-partisan. The only way to keep this administration at bay until they get slaughtered at the mid-terms, is for American non-political entities to speak up and put the pressure on. Other countries are too easily dismissed. Democrats are the enemy.

pixelburp

Havockk wrote: »

The parallels are absolutely striking. Not to mention it's long been theorised that democracy would sooner or later slip toward fascism. It would be genuinely absurd to not be talking about the damn nazis.

I do actually agree, there are undoubted parallels to the early period of the Nazi Party's control of the German government & Trumps White House, but the downside of this example is that because the cultural imprint of the Nazis is so pronounced towards the 'final solution' period, it's inherently hyperbolic by its nature - which makes it hard to convince those who can't see the parallels. Hyperbole is generally seen as an intellectually inferior debating position - even if in this case it's unavoidable (purely because the Nazis really WERE that evil).

To be even more flippant and semi-joking, the comparisons with more Left-wing despots might strike a chord with Americans, given their all-round terror and distaste towards anything vaguely 'socialist'. It's easy to forget the America First movement of the 30s, as spearheaded by the likes Charles Limbergh, and maybe the threat of Nazism isn't as immediately horrible as the threat of communism. It'd take some mental gymnastics mind you, but if evangelicals can vote for Trump - anything's possible

mcmoustache

Deleted User wrote: »

Eh, what? I just enjoy comparisons. We've had one good one already.

I'm not so sure about that. You've been popping into this thread over the past year and a half just to give out about the thread. This new passive aggressive approach of yours is fairly transparent.

James Brown

It's fascinating.
Politicians are prone to cronyism and feathering their own nests, but they throw an eye on social issues from time to time.
Trump is setting a new standard. He's playing to a core base, the Republicans are in power so are happy to nod along with any eccentricities. The Republicans are happy with the U.S.A. becoming ostracised by the rest of the free world. In fact Trump gets cosy with Russia and N. Korea as he creates problems with traditional trading partners and allies. Today the U.S. has announced it's leaving the UN Human rights council all so he can keep locking up children, so he can try blackmail Democrats into agreeing to fund his wall.

I think this brand of self interested politics, which has masqueraded as right wing or conservative, coming to a head might work out for actual politicians on either side of the divide, especially right wing conservatives, as it highlights the self interested willing to sell out their values for profits. We are seeing this in the growing divide within the GOP. It may help democracy in the future. Currently I feel the U.S.A. is under threat and the people are losing.

Havockk

pixelburp wrote: »

I do actually agree, there are undoubted parallels to the early period of the Nazi Party's control of the German government & Trumps White House, but the downside of this example is that because the cultural imprint of the Nazis is so pronounced towards the 'final solution' period, it's inherently hyperbolic by its nature - which makes it hard to convince those who can't see the parallels. Hyperbole is generally seen as an intellectually inferior debating position - even if in this case it's unavoidable (purely because the Nazis really WERE that evil).

To be even more flippant and semi-joking, the comparisons with more Left-wing despots might strike a chord with Americans, given their all-round terror and distaste towards anything vaguely 'socialist'. It's easy to forget the America First movement of the 30s, as spearheaded by the likes Charles Limbergh, and maybe the threat of Nazism isn't as immediately horrible as the threat of communism. It'd take some mental gymnastics mind you, but if evangelicals can vote for Trump - anything's possible

Partly because we in the West have been propagandised to a large extent since the Second World War. It shouldn't even be an issue in any kind of mature or serious debate to examine the nazis and make comparisons. Let's face it, the greatest threat from the left in the USA is the centre-right. I'd also be worried that it's just a further slip toward 'doublespeak' to appeal to ignorance. I'm afraid there can/should be no sugarcoating that pill.

Rjd2

Manic Moran wrote: »

Can't say I have. Doesn't seem that problematic, note how it increases the budget to allow the continuation of the zero tolerance policy. Previous administrations have had concerns that there simply was no support infrastructure to do it. So the border is more rigidly policed, families aren't separated, Trump still wins.

I think the Republicans should try to force something like that through, I don't think the Democrats would agree because everything is so partisan these days and ultimately it benefits them the longer it is dragged out.

Not a good time indeed.

Gbear

As much as I don't accept the "they're both two sides of the same coin" line of thinking, the Democrats and Labour in the UK have both been complicit in maintaining the status quo of that polarising two-party system (to a slightly lesser extent in the UK, with others occasionally making a small impact).

They've had opportunities to undercut the structural inadequacies of their system of politics, but they're too afraid of losing any ground for their own party.

The same system of executive orders that Obama used to push his agenda is now in the hands of Trump and a cabal of corporate interests and theocrats that represent at most a third of the population are pretty much in total control of the Federal government, but even if the Democrats have swept every branch of government by 2020 they'll leave the same system in place for the next time the fascist wing of the right are ascendant again.

If your government can be so easily co-opted then you must assume that it will be, and put measures in place to prevent it. I can only hope the complacency shown up until this point is being given a good kicking and Democrats are awakened to their responsibilities not just for getting elected, but strengthening a system against extremism, even if it might lead to short-term negatives for their own organisation.

Blowfish

Deleted User wrote: »

Can you guys please create a list with more than just Hitler? People like Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, Genghis Khan etc.

It would be way more interesting to have various aspects of what he's doing directly compared to more than just one man. Maybe a list of 20 would be good.

Would a briefing paper on the 10 stages of Genocide suffice? You could argue that stages 1,3,4, 6 and 8 have been touched on so far by Trump's Admin and followers.

Blowfish

Blowfish wrote: »

Would a briefing paper on the 10 stages of Genocide suffice? You could argue that stages 1,3,4, 6 and 8 have been touched on so far by Trump's Admin and followers.

Perfect. Thanks.



People seem pretty sure that stage 9 is coming. How long do you think it will be? Few weeks / months / years?