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Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III
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Well yes, but you need to think about them as a child first.
One of the central tenants to Trump immigration policy is that illegals are not equal. They are animals, infesting America. They are crime gangs, MS-13 members, bringing nothing but rape and drugs and crime.
If you are told that often enough that you start to think that whatever you give these animals is better than they deserve. Would you think holding feral dogs in cages is cruel? No, well that is how some Americans now view these people. And led by the CiC with his constant denigration of them.
And that is the real problem with Trump. Its not building the wall, or stricter border controls. All countries have some for of them. It is the derogatory language, it is the inflaming of hatred, it is the appeal to ignorance, fear and hatred.
This is so true and it's terrifying.0 -
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If she wears that jacket on the way to the annual press dinner then it makes sense their claim it was to do with the media. But on the way to a visit where she is meant to be showing that she cares about some cause can only mean one thing.
Will Zara now come out with an "We really do care" jacket in response?0 -
I'd imagine Melania's jacket is going to be all the rage amongst the Ann Coulter hatchlings.0
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If you are told that often enough that you start to think that whatever you give these animals is better than they deserve. Would you think holding feral dogs in cages is cruel? No, well that is how some Americans now view these people. And led by the CiC with his constant denigration of them.
You can see that in the After hours thread on this subject. It's a bit depressing.0 -
Well yes, but you need to think about them as a child first.
One of the central tenants to Trump immigration policy is that illegals are not equal. They are animals, infesting America. They are crime gangs, MS-13 members, bringing nothing but rape and drugs and crime.
If you are told that often enough that you start to think that whatever you give these animals is better than they deserve. Would you think holding feral dogs in cages is cruel? No, well that is how some Americans now view these people. And led by the CiC with his constant denigration of them.
And that is the real problem with Trump. Its not building the wall, or stricter border controls. All countries have some for of them. It is the derogatory language, it is the inflaming of hatred, it is the appeal to ignorance, fear and hatred.
You know full well that Trumps reference to animals was in relation to MS13 members. While the media initially did what you are doing ( pushing that he called all illegals "animals") even they retracted that narrative and issued corrections (after they stoked the fire of course)0 -
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Whatever. The essential point remains. Trump focused on a particular cohort of people and denigrated them. Having set them apart as unwanted others, he then interned the parents in concentration camps (yes, they are the classic definition of a concentration camp) and separated children from their parents by interning the children in concentration camps where they were held in cages.Celticfire wrote: »Well yes, but you need to think about them as a child first.
One of the central tenants to Trump immigration policy is that illegals are not equal. They are animals, infesting America. They are crime gangs, MS-13 members, bringing nothing but rape and drugs and crime.
If you are told that often enough that you start to think that whatever you give these animals is better than they deserve. Would you think holding feral dogs in cages is cruel? No, well that is how some Americans now view these people. And led by the CiC with his constant denigration of them.
And that is the real problem with Trump. Its not building the wall, or stricter border controls. All countries have some for of them. It is the derogatory language, it is the inflaming of hatred, it is the appeal to ignorance, fear and hatred.
You know full well that Trumps reference to animals was in relation to MS13 members. While the media initially did what you are doing ( pushing that he called all illegals "animals") even they retracted that narrative and issued corrections (after they stoked the fire of course)
They are the facts. Apparently his wife doesn't care, do u?0 -
Celticfire wrote: »You know full well that Trumps reference to animals was in relation to MS13 members. While the media initially did what you are doing ( pushing that he called all illegals "animals") even they retracted that narrative and issued corrections (after they stoked the fire of course)
What about the use of the word "infest" referring to asylum seekers?
Or are you going to try some further mental gymnastics to justify that too?0 -
PopePalpatine wrote: »I'd imagine Melania's jacket is going to be all the rage amongst the Ann Coulter hatchlings.
I don't think there is much humanity in the likes of Coulter, I've just watched a clip where she flat out attempts to dehumanise children.0 -
Professor Moriarty wrote: »Whatever. The essential point remains. Trump focused on a particular cohort of people and denigrated them. Having set them apart as unwanted others, he then interned the parents in concentration camps (yes, they are the classic definition of a concentration camp) and separated children from their parents by interning the children in concentration camps where they were held in cages.
They are the facts. Apparently his wife doesn't care, do u?
This week is poor obviously, but he is correct that the media spun him calling M13 animals as if was slagging all immigrants. To be fair plenty did admit there mistake, but the resistance bubble aka the left wing versions of Owens, Kirk etc did not. We had the absurd scenarios of the likes of John Legend defending M13 etc. That's exactly why Trump is polling in the forties as there is no nuance anymore to him. There is plenty to genuinely criticise him over to say the least, but the above just gives him ammunition to scream fake news0 -
I don't feel sorry for The Donald when the media makes up lies about a serial liar. . His 'hurt' at being misquoted is an irrelevant deflection from the racist internment of children in cages. Anything that destroys his presidency is fine by me.Professor Moriarty wrote: »Whatever. The essential point remains. Trump focused on a particular cohort of people and denigrated them. Having set them apart as unwanted others, he then interned the parents in concentration camps (yes, they are the classic definition of a concentration camp) and separated children from their parents by interning the children in concentration camps where they were held in cages.
They are the facts. Apparently his wife doesn't care, do u?
This week is poor obviously, but he is correct that the media spun him calling M13 animals as if was slagging all immigrants. To be fair plenty did admit there mistake, but the resistance bubble aka the left wing versions of Owens, Kirk etc did not. We had the absurd scenarios of the likes of John Legend defending M13 etc. That's exactly why Trump is polling in the forties as there is no nuance anymore to him. There is plenty to genuinely criticise him over to say the least, but the above just gives him ammunition to scream fake news0 -
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That interview was very upsetting. Surely US customs officials have documented where and who they have separated?
Nah. It's the US. Underperformance in business and government is a thing. We're spoiled by the excellent service we get in Ireland.
And I'm not being sarcastic. Having grown up in the US and moved to Ireland 3 years ago, it's no contest the quality, responsiveness and ability shown by the people we shop from, work with and have contacted in businesses.
Now... you can say I'm used to an extremely low bar, and I'll agree, but I wouldn't be surprised if the US fails dramatically at reuniting children with their parents and tries to suppress the information, sweep it under the rug, deflect, delay, ...
Things are much better in Ireland than anywhere in the US. Enjoy it while it lasts.0 -
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Celticfire wrote: »You know full well that Trumps reference to animals was in relation to MS13 members. While the media initially did what you are doing ( pushing that he called all illegals "animals") even they retracted that narrative and issued corrections (after they stoked the fire of course)
Hang on now, this is hardly a new line of thinking from Trump; let's not suddenly forget he has been banging this drum of 'Mexicans' as an infestation or flood, since the prehistoric times of 2015 when he was just another candidate. To directly quote:"They're sending people that have a lot of problems, and they're bringing those problems with us. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people"
SOME are probably good people. That's clear, coded language dehumanising the entirity, not the exception; you can claim that he's referring to the likes of MS13, but we know damn right this is real 'dog whistle' territory.
I get this is Donald Trump and every week brings a new garbage fire that some will try and claim the MSM are going overboard - but he has been making these generalised statements since Day 0.0 -
If it does. Anyone whose credibility is less than optimal will be doing harm to their own cause.Professor Moriarty wrote: »I don't feel sorry for The Donald when the media makes up lies about a serial liar. . His 'hurt' at being misquoted is an irrelevant deflection from the racist internment of children in cages. Anything that destroys his presidency is fine by me.
As has been said ,don't get down in the gutter with this crowd or you will lose.
If Trump is not defeated honorably then what follows him will just be more of the same (unless the public see through them).0 -
Maybe, you know as POTUS, Trump should take more care when sending out tweets so that it cannot be taken up the wrong way, either by the media or his supporters. If he meant MS-13 then he should explicitly say that. But its hard to take that reading when he is saying he won't let the US become a migrant camp, because that has caused crime to rise 10% in Germany. What inference are we expected to take from that? That Germany is also being overrun by MS-13, aided and abetted by Nancy Pelosi who loves them?
Sorry, but Trump's use of language is either willfully ignorant or on purpose. Both are terrible in the effect they can have.
To simply give him a pass on the basis that he gets mixed up. This despite him repeatedly telling us he is the most intelligent man with the best words. So which is it. Is it simply is inability to learn from his mistakes or is he doing it on purpose.0 -
Nah. It's the US. Underperformance in business and government is a thing. We're spoiled by the excellent service we get in Ireland.
And I'm not being sarcastic. Having grown up in the US and moved to Ireland 3 years ago, it's no contest the quality, responsiveness and ability shown by the people we shop from, work with and have contacted in businesses.
Now... you can say I'm used to an extremely low bar, and I'll agree, but I wouldn't be surprised if the US fails dramatically at reuniting children with their parents and tries to suppress the information, sweep it under the rug, deflect, delay, ...
Things are much better in Ireland than anywhere in the US. Enjoy it while it lasts.
It might be media spin but I recall that at least 2 months ago there were stories in the media that the US authorities had lost contact with around 2,000 children it placed in what were supposed to be foster-family settings after they were taken into US Federal custody from foreign parents from south of the US border. I don't know what happened to that story or whether the encagement policy was used to prevent further "loss" of children the Fed's had taken into a "in loco paentis" form of custody. Either way, it's been a total disaster. Hopefully the new policy of relocating these new custodial children to US military bases won't find the said accommodation normally being military prisons.0 -
Well we know he is a liar;it is just a matter of judging how he thinks his lies have the best effect from his point of view (don't forget liars lie around the truth to be effective)Maybe, you know as POTUS, Trump should take more care when sending out tweets so that it cannot be taken up the wrong way, either by the media or his supporters. If he meant MS-13 then he should explicitly say that. But its hard to take that reading when he is saying he won't let the US become a migrant camp, because that has caused crime to rise 10% in Germany. What inference are we expected to take from that? That Germany is also being overrun by MS-13, aided and abetted by Nancy Pelosi who loves them?
Sorry, but Trump's use of language is either willfully ignorant or on purpose. Both are terrible in the effect they can have.
To simply give him a pass on the basis that he gets mixed up. This despite him repeatedly telling us he is the most intelligent man with the best words. So which is it. Is it simply is inability to learn from his mistakes or is he doing it on purpose.
He may think that as his pronouncements attract support then he must be doing something right and "not bust so don't fix it".
Perhaps he tries to fine tune his pronouncements to greater effect.It would be interesting to chart these changes in the message if they can be discerned.0 -
Do these detainees have to continue to be treated as criminals in order for the government to avoid being sued (easily)?aloyisious wrote: »It might be media spin but I recall that at least 2 months ago there were stories in the media that the US authorities had lost contact with around 2,000 children it placed in what were supposed to be foster-family settings after they were taken into US Federal custody from foreign parents from south of the US border. I don't know what happened to that story or whether the encagement policy was used to prevent further "loss" of children the Fed's had taken into a "in loco paentis" form of custody. Either way, it's been a total disaster. Hopefully the new policy of relocating these new custodial children to US military bases won't find the said accommodation normally being military prisons.
That would be quite an action.0 -
So now Trump is tweeting that they should give up any work on changing immigration laws until (unless) they get 10 extra senators in the upcoming November elections.
So the man that was going to drain the swamp, knows better than anyone how to get things done, is admitting that he is totally powerless in getting one of his signature acts through.
Wow. What a kick in the face of his supporters. He greatest selling point was he was the ultimate deal maker, and he failed on Obamacare, he failed to get anything from NK, he hasn't got funding for his wall, and now he has had to row back on his own policy and is throwing in the towel on immigration reform.
What a kick in the face to all those that voted for him because they feared the effects of immigration. The crime, the lacks of jobs etc. Apparently all that is on hold now, they will just have to grin and bear it as Trump can't do his job.0 -
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I don't think it is either.Sorry, but Trump's use of language is either willfully ignorant or on purpose. Both are terrible in the effect they can have.
It's not being wilfully ignorant as that would mean that he was capable of acknowledging that he didn't know something but was carrying on doing things his way regardless. He knows that he is right, he's always been right, everyone around him tells him that he's right therefore he is obviously right.
He is ignorant, but there is nothing willfull about it.
This is the guy who stated quite proudly to be the humblest person around. He clearly just doesn't know what words mean.
I also don't think he is deliberately trying to wind people up by saying the wrong thing at the wrong time on purpose. That would require a level of skill that is absolutely not evidenced by anything else he has ever done before.
He is just an ignorant idiot. There is no master plan on his part, other than making more money and having people tell him how great he is. If anyone is pulling the strings in the background somewhere I also think that is so far in the background that Trump isn't even aware of it as he'd not be able to stop himself saying something about how great the puppet master is to have chosen Trump to be the puppet.0 -
So now Trump is tweeting that they should give up any work on changing immigration laws until (unless) they get 10 extra senators in the upcoming November elections.
So the man that was going to drain the swamp, knows better than anyone how to get things done, is admitting that he is totally powerless in getting one of his signature acts through.
Wow. What a kick in the face of his supporters. He greatest selling point was he was the ultimate deal maker, and he failed on Obamacare, he failed to get anything from NK, he hasn't got funding for his wall, and now he has had to row back on his own policy and is throwing in the towel on immigration reform.
What a kick in the face to all those that voted for him because they feared the effects of immigration. The crime, the lacks of jobs etc. Apparently all that is on hold now, they will just have to grin and bear it as Trump can't do his job.
Presumably that is connected with the lost "immigration control" legislation vote last night. I'm surprised it was lost, and presume some Republicans were either absent on other business [re-election?] or voted NAY or abstained.0 -
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Professor Moriarty wrote: »I don't feel sorry for The Donald when the media makes up lies about a serial liar. . His 'hurt' at being misquoted is an irrelevant deflection from the racist internment of children in cages. Anything that destroys his presidency is fine by me.
This sort of attitude sums up alot.
This logic , or lack of , is what will stop the Democrats from retaking the House, it will stop liberals from reasserting themselves as the dominant species and it also stops any form of reasoned discussion. Its the same un-reasonable stance that led to Trump gaining office in fact.
They are happy to sell out their own moral highground and happy to align themselves with any group, person, country with any agenda just as long as it is anti-Trump and can feed their Trump derangment syndrome.0 -
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This sort of attitude sums up alot.
This logic , or lack of , is what will stop the Democrats from retaking the House, it will stop liberals from reasserting themselves as the dominant species and it also stops any form of reasoned discussion. Its the same un-reasonable stance that led to Trump gaining office in fact.
They are happy to sell out their own moral highground and happy to align themselves with any group, person, country with any agenda just as long as it is anti-Trump and can feed their Trump derangment syndrome.
Here's the difference, when the media f*ck up, there's a better than good chance they'll retract the article or openly admit they got it wrong. Most legitimate, honestly intentioned outlets do strive for truth cos otherwise credibility takes a huge hit. You may crib and grumble about the liberal media etc. but they have the capacity to own their mistakes
Now, show me where Trump has ever owned up to any of his lies, and I don't mean any instances claiming he was only joking, or moved the goalposts such as his claims Democrats were blocking him from saving those kids. An honest to god retraction of one of his many false claims or statements.0 -
This sort of attitude sums up alot.
This logic , or lack of , is what will stop the Democrats from retaking the House, it will stop liberals from reasserting themselves as the dominant species and it also stops any form of reasoned discussion. Its the same un-reasonable stance that led to Trump gaining office in fact.
They are happy to sell out their own moral highground and happy to align themselves with any group, person, country with any agenda just as long as it is anti-Trump and can feed their Trump derangment syndrome.
A typical Trump strategy is to verbally abuse until the other person's patience is exhausted and then when they finally react, Trump et al act the victim.
I'd say your post was reminiscent of a snowflake type, but the irony would be lost on you.0 -
pixelburp wrote:Now, show me where Trump has ever owned up to any of his lies, and I don't mean any instances claiming he was only joking, or moved the goalposts such as his claims Democrats were blocking him from saving those kids. An honest to god retraction of one of his many false claims or statements.
I'd say you could go back a lifetime and never find evidence of such an occurrence.0 -
Here's the difference, when the media f*ck up, there's a better than good chance they'll retract the article or openly admit they got it wrong. Most legitimate, honestly intentioned outlets do strive for truth cos otherwise credibility takes a huge hit. You may crib and grumble about the liberal media etc. but they have the capacity to own their mistakes
Now, show me where Trump has ever owned up to any of his lies, and I don't mean any instances claiming he was only joking, or moved the goalposts such as his claims Democrats were blocking him from saving those kids. An honest to god retraction of one of his many false claims or statements.
The above is all true, but Rigolo is not wrong either. The post is symptomatic of what seems to be the current national Democrat strategy of "Not Trump". The problem is that they are 0 for 1 so far on that strategy, and I'm unconvinced they'll not be 0 for 2 out after November. Gains, yes. Control? Not so sure. And the plan for 2020 is... what, more 'Anti-Trump?' I might suspect 0 for 3....
Ds -should- have an easy win against trump in 2020. Then again, they -should- have had an easy win in 2016. At least at the district level, the D politicians are campaigning on the issues, that I've seen. However, so are their opponents...0 -
Manic Moran wrote: »The above is all true, but Rigolo is not wrong either. The post is symptomatic of what seems to be the current national Democrat strategy of "Not Trump". The problem is that they are 0 for 1 so far on that strategy, and I'm unconvinced they'll not be 0 for 2 out after November. Gains, yes. Control? Not so sure. And the plan for 2020 is... what, more 'Anti-Trump?' I might suspect 0 for 3....
Ds -should- have an easy win against trump in 2020. Then again, they -should- have had an easy win in 2016. At least at the district level, the D politicians are campaigning on the issues, that I've seen. However, so are their opponents...
To be fair, if we stuck a chimp with rabies in the White House, I believe matters would be better, so I see the logic in "anything but Trump"...0 -
TBH, in any normal functioning democracy not-Trump would be enough. Both he and the GOP have shown themselves to be both totally incompetent and ineffective.
The outright lies that Trump has stated and that the GOP have let him away with, the disaster of the recent locking up of children policy that caused Trump into such a major, and embarressing climbdown, would be enough to convince voters that the GOP is not the people they need in place.
The allowing of the national debt to rocket. The massive tax giveaway to the corporations and wealthy.
So being not-Trump would normally be more than enough. The Dems, through Obama, showed that they can bring the country back from the economic brink.
But the American voters showed that none of that matters. They aren't interested in policy or experience. They are interested in being told they are the best, that everyone less is against them and that the world owns them.
People keep posting that the Dems need a message. But what message is that? Fiscal constraint? Dealing with gun violence? Cutting back on the military to spend more on healthcare? A more liberal approach? None of that is going to have an effect on the Trump supporters.
As I posted recently, a recent poll shows the GOP voters have a higher regard for Kim of NK than they do for Pelosi. One, a brutal dictator than openly threatened the US with nuclear attack, and the other who just happens to be a female and thinks people should have healthcare and human rights. There is simply no message that the Dems can try to get through that sort of thinking.0 -
TBH, in any normal functioning democracy not-Trump would be enough. Both he and the GOP have shown themselves to be both totally incompetent and ineffective.
The outright lies that Trump has stated and that the GOP have let him away with, the disaster of the recent locking up of children policy that caused Trump into such a major, and embarressing climbdown, would be enough to convince voters that the GOP is not the people they need in place.
The allowing of the national debt to rocket. The massive tax giveaway to the corporations and wealthy.
So being not-Trump would normally be more than enough. The Dems, through Obama, showed that they can bring the country back from the economic brink.
But the American voters showed that none of that matters. They aren't interested in policy or experience. They are interested in being told they are the best, that everyone less is against them and that the world owns them.
People keep posting that the Dems need a message. But what message is that? Fiscal constraint? Dealing with gun violence? Cutting back on the military to spend more on healthcare? A more liberal approach? None of that is going to have an effect on the Trump supporters.
As I posted recently, a recent poll shows the GOP voters have a higher regard for Kim of NK than they do for Pelosi. One, a brutal dictator than openly threatened the US with nuclear attack, and the other who just happens to be a female and thinks people should have healthcare and human rights. There is simply no message that the Dems can try to get through that sort of thinking.
The centre has to shoulder their share of the blame. For too long it pandered to the right and attacked their more natural ally on the left.0 -
You failed to respond to the question of responsibility. Literally thousands of children were dumped on us with no parents to provide for them. I ask again … Whose responsibility is this?
Even assuming this is true - which it's not and it has been well documented and reported that the approach is a new one, to explicitly separate children from parents - are you pleading the case that their treatment and placement in cages with minimal, sub-disaster-relief care is apt, fair or even remotely humane?Try going to a law court sometime and listen to the crying by the guilty and/or their families. Almost anyone can cry on demand.
Wow. I guess the answer to my question then is 'yes'? If you're seriously drawing equivalence between convicted adults crying in court, and toddlers crying while sitting bewildered in cages with no clue as to what's going on, then I guess there's no discussion to be had. Like, have you even met a four year old? I suppose if a toddler bumps its head against the coffee table the response is to what - just fold your arms and tell it to man up, or something? Get a better coach?
You act like it's a zero sum game, victim blaming with abandon because it's the childrens' fault for their parents seeking a new life in the US somehow, and that we should sympathise with ICE for just trying to protect borders? Sure, do so, we all have borders to monitor - but the moral high ground was lost the moment children got chucked into ramshackle cages.
Park the sports-team politicking and just observe the humanity of the situation for goodness sake.
Your statement about "assuming this is true" shows a complete disregard of the facts. I say again (emphasis added for effect … not shouting … as I have been accused of before) THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN HAVE BEEN DUMPED WITHOUT PARENTS. BTW, you are ignoring the fact that the former white house occupant did exactly what you are accusing the POTUS of doing. Do the words 'double standard' mean anything to you?
Now to the crying … my point was, and remains that nearly anyone can cry on demand. You seem to forget, or possibly you don't know about the illegals who show up with a printed sheet (which they can barely read) to claim asylum. Many show up with children who are not theirs … aka child abuse/trafficking. And your exceedingly stupid question about me ever meeting a four year old … 3 kids of my own, 6 grandkids. Your apology for stupidity is accepted.
Many folks here refer back to some Irish morning show for information on President Donald J Trump. Is it possible that those folks are victims of only one side of the story? I wonder how these Irish folks feel about the influx of moslems from Europe, Africa, and the Middle East? I'm sure Irish treatment of those individuals is just peachy keen.0 -
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I was listening to Marian McKeown on Morning Ireland this morning and she was saying that there is a strong likelihood that many of the younger children that can't self identify may never be re-united with their parents. Many have been moved all over the states under the care of social services, so parents may never be able to trace them.
That is horrific, and if trump maintains his support base after this I feel very sorry for the decent Americans. For all their talk of Christian values, it will be a country and leadership facing moral collapse, .
Same. I actually gasped on the bus on the way in.
It's frankly unbelievable that this was a condoned practice in a "beacon" of freedom. Horrible horrible.0
This discussion has been closed.
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