Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III

Manic Moran

FWIW, the “real unemployment rate”is an actual thing, and has been falling pretty much continuously since 2010. 17% to 7.5%. It is currently at a 17-year low.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-real-us-unemployment-rate-reached-a-17-year-low-2018-06-01

Wanderer78

Manic Moran wrote: »

FWIW, the “real unemployment rate”is an actual thing, and has been falling pretty much continuously since 2010. 17% to 7.5%. It is currently at a 17-year low.

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-real-us-unemployment-rate-reached-a-17-year-low-2018-06-01

'the real' level probably cant be accurately measured, as each method and system has errors and biasism in its approach

Midlife

I'm very rational about all of this and I have no problem giving Trump credit where it's due.

So...he's very true to his principals, even when it costs him.

Most recent example I can think of is that he's clearly pissing off a lot of the GOP with this economic isolation/trade war thing. Given that they're the party of big business, it would be much easier for him to do something else but he's staying true to his principals and what he believes will help the economy of the USA.

I mean all that nationalist brietbart stuff. it would have been much easier to just pivot towards the middle after getting elected. He is true to the issues he has principals on, however much I disagree with them.



I'd like an answer from the pro-trump side on what they think of...

a: the whole birther thing

b: Trump sitting through that episode of his cabinet in turn fawning over him

I'm genuinely curious how straight-thinking people could back someone who is so obviously racist, lying and narcissistic. Really, I'd love an answer to that as I'm not sure how you square that away. Thanks.

Nox

Leroy42 wrote: »

Nobody dislike your support for Trump, people are merely questioning the logic and consistency of the positions you take.  As in religion, once the debate starts to move against them, the cry of "stop attacking me, just accept my belief" is trotted out.  If you come onto a public forum to express you opinion, then it is only right and to be expected that others will look to understand that position and that involves questioning it.

You say that its an impossible task to defend Trumps actions/statements/decisions?  Why?  There are many decision that people make that I don't agree with but I can defend the actions being taken.  Of course it is possible to change beliefs, not consciously I would argue, but opening yourself up to questions, critically examining your position and looking at the consistency of the approach.  People move all the time believing in religion to not, so your point to flawed.

People don't hate everything he does for some irrational reason, they hate nearly everything he does because none of it makes sense, is usually badly thought out, seemingly based on nothing more than wanting to destroy anything Obama was involved in.  In many cases it is based on nothing more than wanted to create trouble and he appears to be very easily manipulated.

Opposition parties are not there to offer solutions, they are there to point out the issues.  Trump, as POTUS, he needs to come up with solutions.  He asked them to come up with a solution, they did and he threw it back at them.

Unlike some of your previous posts, I have given this one considerable thought.  Your point about religion is one I totally agree with. I had planned on mentioning something similar to that when the whole moslem escapade came up a few pages ago and it was crystal clear that any and all references I made about/to religion were taboo.

One thing that you suggested is that I give opinions and support them.  I need to point out, I already tried that is a couple cases only to have the "talking points" retort.  I laugh at that because those retorts are nothing more than talking points themselves.  A recent example is some discussion about unemployment numbers.  A poster said something about American commentators.  Of course, I asked which specific network/s were involved and I got a generalized answer.  I know that the previous administration pumped out bogus numbers constantly and then later (usually on a late Friday afternoon issue 'revised' numbers.  So I am totally numb when it comes to the numbers.  But, the 'fact checkers' have only disputed rally attendance numbers.  Interestingly there is a post saying that attendance numbers don't matter.

You made the statement that none of the POTUS actions make sense.  Wow.  Not very long ago the anti crowd was screaming (literally) about world-wide nuclear war and that the POTUS would provoke it.  Hmmm … how did that one work out.  Yes, it ain't over, but I can count the number of missiles Rocket Man has fired since then on one hand and have five fingers left over.

In conclusion … while I disagree with some of what you said, it is the most cogent post I have read here recently, and no, I have not thanked it.    

Christy42

Nox wrote: »

Unlike some of your previous posts, I have given this one considerable thought.  Your point about religion is one I totally agree with. I had planned on mentioning something similar to that when the whole moslem escapade came up a few pages ago and it was crystal clear that any and all references I made about/to religion were taboo.

One thing that you suggested is that I give opinions and support them.  I need to point out, I already tried that is a couple cases only to have the "talking points" retort.  I laugh at that because those retorts are nothing more than talking points themselves.  A recent example is some discussion about unemployment numbers.  A poster said something about American commentators.  Of course, I asked which specific network/s were involved and I got a generalized answer.  I know that the previous administration pumped out bogus numbers constantly and then later (usually on a late Friday afternoon issue 'revised' numbers.  So I am totally numb when it comes to the numbers.  But, the 'fact checkers' have only disputed rally attendance numbers.  Interestingly there is a post saying that attendance numbers don't matter.

You made the statement that none of the POTUS actions make sense.  Wow.  Not very long ago the anti crowd was screaming (literally) about world-wide nuclear war and that the POTUS would provoke it.  Hmmm … how did that one work out.  Yes, it ain't over, but I can count the number of missiles Rocket Man has fired since then on one hand and have five fingers left over.

In conclusion … while I disagree with some of what you said, it is the most cogent post I have read here recently, and no, I have not thanked it.    

Pretty much everyone here mentioned that they thought the 20% was bogus. How much more discussion do you want on it?

Your question about the commentators was obviously leading, indicating your disbelief of the networks you mentioned and yet you seem to (correct me if I am wrong there) support an administration that touted far more ridiculous numbers.

Unless Trump has halved unemployment he can't really justify complaining about people saying it is 20%. I mean sure it is wrong but it also highlights just how much Trump was lying to his supporters who seemed to lap it up (in spite of how obviously ridiculous the numbers were).

Someone even mentioned it as a technique to fight bull with bull. Personally I think that opens up the US to the next Trump in 2024 and might just be short sighted. Plus only one side will really be called on the lies by their own supporters and so it will back fire from that approach. I reckon go with the truth, Trump is bad enough that if the economy needs any help whatsoever in the next few years t will be obvious he is not up to the job.

Midlife

Nox wrote: »

Unlike some of your previous posts, I have given this one considerable thought.  Your point about religion is one I totally agree with. I had planned on mentioning something similar to that when the whole moslem escapade came up a few pages ago and it was crystal clear that any and all references I made about/to religion were taboo.

One thing that you suggested is that I give opinions and support them.  I need to point out, I already tried that is a couple cases only to have the "talking points" retort.  I laugh at that because those retorts are nothing more than talking points themselves.  A recent example is some discussion about unemployment numbers.  A poster said something about American commentators.  Of course, I asked which specific network/s were involved and I got a generalized answer.  I know that the previous administration pumped out bogus numbers constantly and then later (usually on a late Friday afternoon issue 'revised' numbers.  So I am totally numb when it comes to the numbers.  But, the 'fact checkers' have only disputed rally attendance numbers.  Interestingly there is a post saying that attendance numbers don't matter.

You made the statement that none of the POTUS actions make sense.  Wow.  Not very long ago the anti crowd was screaming (literally) about world-wide nuclear war and that the POTUS would provoke it.  Hmmm … how did that one work out.  Yes, it ain't over, but I can count the number of missiles Rocket Man has fired since then on one hand and have five fingers left over.

In conclusion … while I disagree with some of what you said, it is the most cogent post I have read here recently, and no, I have not thanked it.    

Given that I pointed out what i felt were Trump's good points, i'd love you to answer my question.

given your comments about the 'anti-crowd screaming', what do you think of the 'my investigators in Hawaii are finding out amazing things'.

Do you either believe Trump that there is something up with Obama's birth cert or believe that it's fair enough to have a go at presidents over anything?

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Give us a break.:rolleyes: It's been about 5 seconds since Trump met with KJU. And news reports are already coming out that the 'agreement' is already falling apart.

Nox wrote: »

...Not very long ago the anti crowd was screaming (literally) about world-wide nuclear war and that the POTUS would provoke it.  Hmmm … how did that one work out.  Yes, it ain't over, but I can count the number of missiles Rocket Man has fired since then on one hand and have five fingers left over....

Nox

Midlife wrote: »

Nox wrote: »

Unlike some of your previous posts, I have given this one considerable thought.  Your point about religion is one I totally agree with. I had planned on mentioning something similar to that when the whole moslem escapade came up a few pages ago and it was crystal clear that any and all references I made about/to religion were taboo.

One thing that you suggested is that I give opinions and support them.  I need to point out, I already tried that is a couple cases only to have the "talking points" retort.  I laugh at that because those retorts are nothing more than talking points themselves.  A recent example is some discussion about unemployment numbers.  A poster said something about American commentators.  Of course, I asked which specific network/s were involved and I got a generalized answer.  I know that the previous administration pumped out bogus numbers constantly and then later (usually on a late Friday afternoon issue 'revised' numbers.  So I am totally numb when it comes to the numbers.  But, the 'fact checkers' have only disputed rally attendance numbers.  Interestingly there is a post saying that attendance numbers don't matter.

You made the statement that none of the POTUS actions make sense.  Wow.  Not very long ago the anti crowd was screaming (literally) about world-wide nuclear war and that the POTUS would provoke it.  Hmmm … how did that one work out.  Yes, it ain't over, but I can count the number of missiles Rocket Man has fired since then on one hand and have five fingers left over.

In conclusion … while I disagree with some of what you said, it is the most cogent post I have read here recently, and no, I have not thanked it.    

Given that I pointed out what i felt were Trump's good points, i'd love you to answer my question.

given your comments about the 'anti-crowd screaming', what do you think of the 'my investigators in Hawaii are finding out amazing things'.

Do you either believe Trump that there is something up with Obama's birth cert or believe that it's fair enough to have a go at presidents over anything?

1.  If the birth certificate were true … why did it take so long to reveal it?

2.  Why are the school enrollment records still sealed?

3.  When will Occidental College release information about enrollment?

Hopefully this will satisfy your questions … but probably not.  I guess being enrolled in a moslem school in Indonesia is of no importance because he was Christian. I guess this is the beginning of multiple pages of birther.  For the record … Nox did not start this.

Nox

Vivienne Chilly Sobriety wrote: »

Give us a break.:rolleyes: It's been about 5 seconds since Trump met with KJU. And news reports are already coming out that the 'agreement' is already falling apart.

Nox wrote: »

...Not very long ago the anti crowd was screaming (literally) about world-wide nuclear war and that the POTUS would provoke it.  Hmmm … how did that one work out.  Yes, it ain't over, but I can count the number of missiles Rocket Man has fired since then on one hand and have five fingers left over....

You need a new watch.

Captain Obvious

Nox wrote: »

1. If the birth certificate were true … why did it take so long to reveal it?

Perhaps for the same reason Trump won't release his tax records.

Edit: Also, I'm pretty sure college and school records are private, not sealed.

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Are you living in some alternative time line to the rest of us? Perhaps you can enlighten us all with your version of the US / North Korea denuclearization timeline.

Nox wrote: »

You need a new watch.

ancapailldorcha

Nox wrote: »

You need a new watch.

Banned for trolling.

Midlife

Nox wrote: »

1.  If the birth certificate were true … why did it take so long to reveal it?

2.  Why are the school enrollment records still sealed?

3.  When will Occidental College release information about enrollment?

Hopefully this will satisfy your questions … but probably not.  I guess being enrolled in a moslem school in Indonesia is of no importance because he was Christian. I guess this is the beginning of multiple pages of birther.  For the record … Nox did not start this.

Oh, Wow.

So you actually believe that Obama wasn't born in America.

I wonder are you either a conspiracy theorist, a racist masking as a conspiracy theorist, or just a racist.

Nonetheless, you believe rumours and proven lies over clearly verifiable things like actual birth certs and newspaper birth announcements of the time.

This means that when it comes to the issues discussed on this thread, there's no evidence that will satisfy you, however concrete. There's no argument you'll listen to, however logically constructed. You've chosen what to believe and you evaluate the evidence based on how much it supports your cause rather then on its own merits. What a waste of intelligence. You really should hang your head in shame.

Water John

Sad to see the NK love in breaking down so early, genuinely. Hoped it would at least keep DT happy and away from the issue, even if we all knew they were not going to denuclearise.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/07/north-korea-calls-us-denuclearisation-talks-regrettable

Itssoeasy

Water John wrote: »

Sad to see the NK love in breaking down so early, genuinely. Hoped it would at least keep DT happy and away from the issue, even if we all knew they were not going to denuclearise.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/07/north-korea-calls-us-denuclearisation-talks-regrettable

If only this carry on could have been foreseen ?

weisses

RIGOLO wrote: »

What incompetancy ? 
The Trump Administration has been the most competent adminstration in dealing with NK and getting them to the table and moving the situation forward. 
I dont see any incompetancy. Long term, think Rekjavik summit, think glasnost and peristroika, think the irish peace process, think how history has thought us how things work in the real world and evolve over months and years and even decades.   
Just cos a person has different opinions to you does not warrant them being called a wind up merchant, your displaying a baser self.

Water John wrote: »

Sad to see the NK love in breaking down so early, genuinely. Hoped it would at least keep DT happy and away from the issue, even if we all knew they were not going to denuclearise.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jul/07/north-korea-calls-us-denuclearisation-talks-regrettable

Care to elaborate how the white house who is according to you filled with mature and very capable people managed to mess this up ?

People on this same forum pointed out to this likely outcome even before the summit, so how can you call this administration competent on this subject ?

everlast75

Nox wrote: »

Nox did not start this.

Are you talking about yourself in the 3rd person, or else....

pixelburp

So having left the news cycle, was wondering how the mandate to reunite those 2000 migrant children was going.

Well, apparently the number is more like 3000, with approx. 100 being under 5. Second, it sounds like the organisation of the separation was so chaotic there isn't enough documentation to join the dots - so DNA tests are going to be required to figure out which children belong to which set of parents. This paragraph is particularly heart-wrenching / disgraceful:

Records linking children to their parents have disappeared, and in some cases have been destroyed, according to two officials of the Department of Homeland Security, leaving the authorities struggling to identify connections between family members.

.

Taken from: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/05/us/migrant-children-chaos-family-separation.html

Destroyed. Now you can debate the intent here, but it's hard not to insinuate the sheer contempt, inhumanity and malice emanating from this administration in its mistreatment. I mean sure, any Japanese-Americans old enough will probably look at these headlines and think "hmm, this all sounds familiar", but even so. Then there are those that insist on helicopter views and waffly economic projections - I suppose that is a more convenient viewpoint than actually addressing the blatant callousness happening right now.

Edit: the farce continues; meeting to discuss the under 5s is to be delayed until Monday because the TRump lawyer has dogsitting duties.

https://twitter.com/PeterAlexander/status/1015338512042921985

VonZan

weisses wrote: »

Care to elaborate how the white house who is according to you filled with mature and very capable people managed to mess this up ?

People on this same forum pointed out to this likely outcome even before the summit, so how can you call this administration competent on this subject ?

Its absurd that the US government refuses to listen to the musings of the experts on this forum.

Do tell us how to proceed.

weisses

VonZan wrote: »

Its absurd that the US government refuses to listen to the musings of the experts on this forum.

Do tell us how to proceed.

Well it was widely predicted by various sources and discussed on this forum.

As how to proceed ? .... I suggest stick with keeping your heads buried in the sand ...Make sure not to miss the MAGA rallies though

Captain Obvious

VonZan wrote: »

Its absurd that the US government refuses to listen to the musings of the experts on this forum.

Do tell us how to proceed.

What's absurd is that the US government are completely incapable of judging the outcomes of their actions to as competent a degree as amateurs on a forum.

everlast75

VonZan wrote: »

Its absurd that the US government refuses to listen to the musings of the experts on this forum.

Do tell us how to proceed.

Yep! Don doesn't need help.

He knows sending over a cd of Rocketman to KJU with Pompeo, signed by DJT himself, will work wonders. ffs!

The point is that he doesn't listen to conventional wisdom.. or any wisdom. He, like his followers, cannot listen to anyone else. They are never wrong, they know best - everyone else is just a *insert pejorative term*

ancapailldorcha

VonZan wrote: »

Its absurd that the US government refuses to listen to the musings of the experts on this forum.

Do tell us how to proceed.

No more snarky comments like this please.

VonZan

weisses wrote: »

Well it was widely predicted by various sources and discussed on this forum.

As how to proceed ? .... I suggest stick with keeping your heads buried in the sand ...Make sure not to miss the MAGA rallies though

I don't think sticking your head in sand or attending a rally will help solve any problems. Have you any better solutions? Don't get me wrong it might work but I'm highly sceptical.

mcmoustache

VonZan wrote: »

I don't think sticking your head in sand or attending a rally will help solve any problems. Have you any better solutions? Don't get me wrong it might work but I'm highly sceptical.

It has already been suggested that they either don't separate them or at least keep track of the kids so that they can be reunited. If you think nobody's providing better ideas, you haven't been reading this thread or anything useful for that matter.

Danzy

pixelburp wrote: »

So having left the news cycle, was wondering how the mandate to reunite those 2000 migrant children was going.

Well, apparently the number is more like 3000, with approx. 100 being under 5. Second, it sounds like the organisation of the separation was so chaotic there isn't enough documentation to join the dots - so DNA tests are going to be required to figure out which children belong to which set of parents. This paragraph is particularly heart-wrenching / disgraceful:

.

Taken from: https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/05/us/migrant-children-chaos-family-separation.html

Destroyed. Now you can debate the intent here, but it's hard not to insinuate the sheer contempt, inhumanity and malice emanating from this administration in its mistreatment. I mean sure, any Japanese-Americans old enough will probably look at these headlines and think "hmm, this all sounds familiar", but even so. Then there are those that insist on helicopter views and waffly economic projections - I suppose that is a more convenient viewpoint than actually addressing the blatant callousness happening right now.

Edit: the farce continues; meeting to discuss the under 5s is to be delayed until Monday because the TRump lawyer has dogsitting duties.

https://twitter.com/PeterAlexander/status/1015338512042921985

Quite a few of the children are not believed to be related to the "parents" so it will be a long drawn out process.

everlast75

Danzy wrote: »

Quite a few of the children are not believed to be related to the "parents" so it will be a long drawn out process.

No, it'll be a long drawn out process because of the incompetence. No other cause or reason

pixelburp

Danzy wrote: »

Quite a few of the children are not believed to be related to the "parents" so it will be a long drawn out process.

And how would we even know? Considering the papertrail looks to be either nonexistent or destroyed, the point is utterly moot. There's a real chance the situation will result in 2000 orphans here - as well as parents whose children will never return to them.

I believed there'd be some officialdom behind the separation of children at the very least, but apparently even efficient maliciousness is too much to ask. Dystopias generally suggest a modest level of organisation.

Kermit.de.frog

So how is the North Korea deal going?

Pompeo refuses sanctions relief for North Korea

Pyongyang calls US demands ‘gangster-like’

Donald Trump went half way around the world to meet Kim and gave him credibility and ridiculous photo ops which are currently being used to bolster the regime.

Trump has been played.

It's at the point now where there are no words in the English language adequately to describe him so I'll just leave it at that.

VonZan

Kermit.de.frog wrote: »

So how is the North Korea deal going?





Donald Trump went half way around the world to meet Kim and gave him credibility and ridiculous photo ops which are currently being used to bolster the regime.

Trump has been played.

It's at the point now where there are no words in the English language adequately to describe him so I'll just leave it at that.

The perception of credibility is a moot point. The FT are reporting that Pyongyang want to sign a peace treaty with the US so think it's a bit naive at this point to call someone being played. If Trump concedes anything to Kim without something in return then he will get hammered by the Democrats again for being 'weak' and legitimising a despot.