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Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III
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Cheerful Spring wrote: »CIA is a massive agency that has a long history of fighting against the Soviet Union and Russia the biases are ingrained in the fabric of the agency.
How do you know this? Have you relations working in the CIA?Cheerful Spring wrote: »John Brennan was never a friend of Trump he even called him a traitor for talking with Putin this week. There plenty of people in the agency who love to see Trump gone.
In fairness, he is a member of a very big club in that regard.Cheerful Spring wrote: »I never said the CIA is working against Trump I saying the agency potentially could be using tactics to undermine Putin and Russia.
So all you've got is conspiracy theories? Gotcha.Cheerful Spring wrote: »It's the US media who are doing the most to undermine Trump legitimate win and they bring onto their news shows disgruntled talking heads who wanted Clinton to win and they regurgitate the Russians helped Trump win.
Two things. Your own DJT "grudgingly accepted" the intelligence presented to him. So if you believe that he is the legitimate winner, you are even worse than he is.
Secondly, the press merely report on his **** ups. It is not their fault that there is a significant magnitude.Cheerful Spring wrote: »Indictments are not convictions.
No, but they turn into them. Stayed tuned to Manafort for example.Cheerful Spring wrote: »Trump is still in office so Russia collusion is still unproven.
Agreed, but to believe that the CIA are out to get Russia, but that there isn't suspicion around Trump's behaviour is sheer denial.Cheerful Spring wrote: »Trump Jr met with Russians so want what does that prove?
He is incredibly stupid.Cheerful Spring wrote: »Women recently arrested? Should we arrest Israelis for wanting more influence? Do you think their no US spies in Russia?
WhatabouteryCheerful Spring wrote: »Actually, he doesn't listen to what he says it could be Russia or could be others too. The climb down was saying why would Russia do this. He just expressing more willingness it could be now, but I don't think he believes it though.
He does believe it. His ego won't allow him to admit that he had to be helped, that he is not as popular as he believes himself to be, that Hilary won the popular vote. And if you don't think he has a massive ego, go look at Trump Tower and the gold urinals ffs.0 -
Professor Moriarty wrote: »So you think the CIA and FBI are lying? Or you think they don't know what they are talking about?
I don't see much in the way of evidence Russia is blackmailing Trump no.
Could Russia have hacked the DNC sure they could have but it equally it could have been an inside job or done by someone who wanted to expose hilary?
After that very little of anything to show Russia undermined the US election. There no evidence of rigged voting machines, there no evidence Russians gave vasts sums of money to Trump campaign. The online campaign run by the GRU never fully proven and probably have a very little impact on voters.0 -
Cheerful Spring wrote: »CIA is a massive agency that has a long history of fighting against the Soviet Union and Russia the biases are ingrained in the fabric of the agency. John Brennan was never a friend of Trump he even called him a traitor for talking with Putin this week.
Nope, not because he was merely "talking" with Putin.
Brennan's "nothing short of treason" tweet was in response to Trump publicly undermining the work of his own nation's security and intel services, when the President compared the word of NSA director Dan Coats to Putin's and decided, on balance, he had "confidence in both parties".0 -
everlast75 wrote: »
No, but they turn into them. Stayed tuned to Manafort for example.
.
Manafort is being prosecuted for things he supposedly has done in dealings with Ukraine has nothing to do with Russian election interference.0 -
In January 2017, the CIA, FBI and NSA released a joint report which categorically stated that, under Putin's orders, Russia had engaged in a huge cyber operation to sabotage the 2016 election with the intention of ensuring a Trump win. This took the form of hacking, trolls and propaganda.Cheerful Spring wrote: »I don't see much in the way of evidence Russia is blackmailing Trump no.
Could Russia have hacked the DNC sure they could have but it equally it could have been an inside job or done by someone who wanted to expose hilary?
After that very little of anything to show Russia undermined the US election. There no evidence of rigged voting machines, there no evidence Russians gave vasts sums of money to Trump campaign. The online campaign run by the GRU never fully proven and probably have a very little impact on voters.
There's the facts. Are they lying?0 -
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Cheerful Spring wrote: »Manafort is being prosecuted for things he supposedly has done in dealings with Ukraine has nothing to do with Russian election interference.
Its not what he has done re election interference... its what he knows and whether he will flip.
Do you think DJT picked him out of the blue to be his campaign manager? To work for free? Honestly0 -
Right, so lets break that that post a bit.
The CIA have, for reasons unknown, had a bias against Russia. They appear to view them as some sort of threat. Now, the fact, accepted by Trump, that they meddled in the recent elections, would appear to give their wariness at least some legitimacy.
You then make the claim that there are plenty of people that would love to see Trump gone, yet the head of it has been appointed by Trump. And wouldn't it also be true to say that there are plenty of people in the CIA that would support Trump? Do you not think that is the case?
So now you claim that you never said the CIA are working against Trump, yet you continually call into question their integrity. And it is the media who are calling into question the legitimacy of Trumps win. Lets park the fact that Trump himself called the whole system rigged right before the election, and the fact that it has been shown, and accepted by Trump, that Russia meddled in the election. This has been shown by the CIA, FBI, National Security and the House Committee (a house with a GOP majority).
I love when you guys come out with the indictments are not convictions. So on that basis, why should HC even been being investigated, never mind considered guilty by many. Now even an indictment. So will you now accept, based on your own premise, that HC has been unfairly treated by the GOP, the media and Trump?
Collusion is unproven, and IMO will never be proven due to the very difficult nature of the evidence required. What we can do is look at someones actions and ask why they would do that. Trump Jr meeting with Russians proves nothing. Trump Jr meeting with Russians with the stated (in emails) intent of procuring illegal gained intel from a foreign government is pretty serious. The last part of that paragraph is whatabooutery, but in answer, yes I think Israeli influence should be investigated, particularly Trumps decision to move the embassy. There appears to be very little advantage to the US from that move. In terms of spies in Russia. Yeah, they all do it. And when people are caught they are charged. Not sure what you're point is.
So he thinks that the US is under attack from multiple countries, is that what you think? Yet he hasn't called any of them out either. ON what basis do you think we can believe him? The only 'evidence' you have is his saying it and you clearly accept that the man will lie. So you are left with a choice.
Does he believe that Russia was involved and opted not not bring it up with meeting Putin, and in fact tried to throw his own agencies under the bus or
He he believes that Russia weren't involved, and therefore has no faith in his own agencies or the people that work in them and then lied about that in order to try to cover it up.
Which one?0 -
Cheerful Spring wrote: »Could Russia have hacked the DNC sure they could have but it equally it could have been an inside job or done by someone who wanted to expose hilary?
Oh sweet Jebus. Do you know anything of the investigation?
The US pretty know everything that happening in regards to the hacking. They know who Guccifer 2.0 is, they know about Stones involvement.
Have a read of this and tell me you still think there is any doubts about Russia doing it.
https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2018/07/17/dnc-server-hack-russia-trump-2016-2190170 -
jooksavage wrote: »Nope, not because he was merely "talking" with Putin.
Brennan's "nothing short of treason" tweet was in response to Trump publicly undermining the work of his own nation's security and intel services, when the President compared the word of NSA director Dan Coats to Putin's and decided, on balance, he had "confidence in both parties".
Its about time the US intelligence agencies prove its allegations and speculation. Trump is the president he has to have seen this intelligence and doesn't believe it and frankly looking at from the outside I see nothing that shows Trump is working for Putin. Trump brought up a great point why has the DNC refused to hand over the server to the FBI, instead they had an outside firm look at it and reach conclusions.0 -
prawnsambo wrote: »To be fair, that would have massive consequences if it were carried. No president could ever have a private discussion with any foreign leader again.
I'm all for transparency, but carried to the end, it would just result in dysfunctional behaviour.
Any kind of agreement with those kinds of ramifications would soon become apparent anyway.
The kick to that is that, in the same way Don has opened his mouth in public and revealed top secret info his Int People gave him from Foreign Int agencies, that Don might be well capable of doing the same to anything a Foreign Govt leader might tell him in high confidence, so the private discussions at leader level are probably gone. Just look at Don bragging about his advising Theresa May re the EU [take them to court] and her response.0 -
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Cheerful Spring wrote: »Could Russia have hacked the DNC sure they could have but it equally it could have been an inside job or done by someone who wanted to expose hilary?
No. The extremely detailed documents from last weeks indictments indicate that the US intel services were aware of and actively attempting to stop cyber attacks during the 2016 election. Much of the information in those documents was gathered in real-time, within hours of the attacks. Obama even tried to get a bi-partisan statement out on the Russian hacking but Mitch McConnell refused to sign up to it. There is zero evidence of anyone but Russia's involvement and to say otherwise is baseless speculation.0 -
And the same cried as Trump. Why is everyone so mean and won't listen to me.
You, and others, are free to post whatever you like (within the mods rules). People are free to question it.
Yet you can never provide any evidence. Its all, my opinion this, could easily be that, maybe Trump kinda meant this, what about HC and Obama.
If you believe that you are right, then simply provide the evidence. You have the whole internet at your disposal.0 -
Professor Moriarty wrote: »In January 2017, the CIA, FBI and NSA released a joint report which categorically stated that, under Putin's orders, Russia had engaged in a huge cyber operation to sabotage the 2016 election with the intention of ensuring a Trump win. This took the form of hacking, trolls and propaganda.
There's the facts. Are they lying?
The DNC hack took place when Hilary was contesting the primary against Sanders. Trump vs Hilary wasn't even a thing then.
And think for a minute how would these agencies know what Putin ordered have they spy devices inside Putin home and at the Kremlin?0 -
Eh? Discord sowing. Worked great.Cheerful Spring wrote: »The DNC hack took place when Hilary was contesting the primary against Sanders. Trump vs Hilary wasn't even a thing then.
Yes, think for a minute. How *would* the CIA et al know what's going on in Russia?And think for a minute how would these agencies know what Putin ordered have they spy devices inside Putin home and at the Kremlin?0 -
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@Cheerful Spring. If you want to post conspiracy theories, please use the appropriate forum. If you wish to continue posting on this thread, please stick to the facts.
Russia hacked the DNC. This is not up for debate.
As the charter says:Deliberately misleading posts or posters aiming to spread misinformation will be sanctioned. We do not expect posters to be experts in all areas, however, the onus is on all posters to fact check their information. If a poster is corrected, or information corrected in a thread, any poster who continues to relate misinformation as fact will be sanctioned.
Thank you0 -
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I've deleted several more posts. When I said this topic isn't up for debate, that applies to everyone. It's unfair to keep addressing a poster on a subject when they've been instructed to drop it.
Thanks0 -
The CIA, NSA etc, are full of liars and deceivers. To this day I am still waiting for those WMD's to turn up but somehow I doubt very much it is going to happen. It amazes me that anyone believes anything they say. And they have also for years interfered in other countries elections, tried to overthrow other countries regimes. They haven't got a leg to stand on. So when people say Russia interfered in the US election, my response is great, well done to them.Cheerful Spring wrote: »Yes, but your basis for not believing the CIA was that they lied about WMD in the lead up to the Iraq war. Then you went and said that it was people not connected to that leadership at all and haven't been able to explain why a CIA which was used by the WH for its agenda had now swung around to be working against the WH?
It has nothing to do with wanting good relations or not. You might want to have good relations with your colleague but if you find they are actively seeking to have you fired it makes it difficult.
Trump wants to simply brush all this off the table, like it never happened. What incentive is their for Putin not to try it again? What now is to stop China, UK, EU or wherever from trying the same tactic?
The evidence of Russia involving itself is everywhere. From the latest indictments, to Trump Jr meeting, to woman recently arrested. The CIA have given all the intel to Trump and yet Trump has done nothing to stop it, nothing to hold Trump to account.
You can cry about conspiracies all you like, but even Trump accepts that the intelligence agencies are right on this. Yet you, with no access to any of the core evidence, have decided that since the CIA lied back for the Iraq war to help the then POTUS it must be lying now, but in a totally different way and that Trump knows this because...well he just does.
CIA is a massive agency that has a long history of fighting against the Soviet Union and Russia the biases are ingrained in the fabric of the agency. John Brennan was never a friend of Trump he even called him a traitor for talking with Putin this week. There plenty of people in the agency who love to see Trump gone. I never said the CIA is working against Trump I saying the agency potentially could be using tactics to undermine Putin and Russia. It's the US media who are doing the most to undermine Trump legitimate win and they bring onto their news shows disgruntled talking heads who wanted Clinton to win and they regurgitate the Russians helped Trump win.
Indictments are not convictions. Trump is still in office so Russia collusion is still unproven. Trump Jr met with Russians so want what does that prove? Women recently arrested? Should they arrest Israelis for wanting more influence? Do you think their no US spies in Russia?
Actually, he doesn't listen to what he says it could be Russia or could be others too. The climb down was saying why would Russia do this. He just expressing more willingness it could be now, but I don't think he believes it though.0 -
The CIA, NSA etc, are full of liars and deceivers. To this day I am still waiting for those WMD's to turn up but somehow I doubt very much it is going to happen. It amazes me that anyone believes anything they say. And they have also for years interfered in other countries elections, tried to overthrow other countries regimes. They haven't got a leg to stand on. So when people say Russia interfered in the US election, my response is great, well done to them.
Why is it a good thing?0 -
The CIA, NSA etc, are full of liars and deceivers. To this day I am still waiting for those WMD's to turn up but somehow I doubt very much it is going to happen. It amazes me that anyone believes anything they say. And they have also for years interfered in other countries elections, tried to overthrow other countries regimes. They haven't got a leg to stand on. So when people say Russia interfered in the US election, my response is great, well done to them.
Great, well done. But whether the CIA are corrupt is not the issue.
Trump is not claiming they are corrupt. He says he believes them. So are you saying that Trump is complicit in this corruption, an is therefore corrupt?
Trump is saying that despite the evidence presented to him over numerous months, he has decided, based on nothing that he has ever told us, that they are simply making it all up. Apparently, according to posters on here, it is either because they hate Russia, hate Trump or a combination of both.
Now if the CIA are corrupt, to the point that they are actively moving against the POTUS, then the heads of the org should be charged with treason. Trump must know who these people are, yet he continues to do nothing.
So, the GOP believes them, Trump believes them, other governments have said they have evidence. But you, not knowing any of the evidence have decided that they are all lying. Everyone is lying. All because they all want to take Trump down. Including himself. for some reason.
Also, we don't have to believe that they say. We can read about it in the indictments. They have been passed into the legal system. But I guess Mueller is corrupt as well? Despite his whole professional life being spent in the service of his country he has suddenly turned rogue in a bid to get HC elected.0 -
Re Vlad's offer to Don of his people helping R Mueller's investigation, and the mention of the Russian interest in interviewing two named people, incl a former US Ambassador to Russia, MSN is running a link to a Time Magazine report that the White House and the Dept of State are at loggerheads over Russia's request, allegedly under consideration by Don, to interview 11 US citizens for unspecified crimes. The 11 US citizens include the former ambassador. It seems the Dept is not agreeing to Vlad's request, which seems to be a quid pro quo for the Kremlin to assist Muellers investigation. “The overall assertions that have come out of the Russian government are absolutely absurd: the fact that they want to question 11 American citizens and the assertions that the Russian government is making about those American citizens,” spokeswoman Heather Nauert told reporters. The original Time report incldes a video of the Dept's spokewoman's media briefing. I can't locate a link to the Time story but reckon that the link below, seeing as it's from Don's news agency pal, may be of equal value. It's a copy of a USA Today report.
https://www.fox23.com/news/national-news/why-is-trump-open-to-letting-russia-interrogate-americans-including-former-us-ambassador-mcfaul/7933193220 -
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Trump is just winging it like a baker would do if they had to work in a garage fixing cars. He can't believe he is President, doesn't know how to be a politician and of course he is corrupt. He is a multi billionaire. I also never said they are lying about Russian interference.The CIA, NSA etc, are full of liars and deceivers. To this day I am still waiting for those WMD's to turn up but somehow I doubt very much it is going to happen. It amazes me that anyone believes anything they say. And they have also for years interfered in other countries elections, tried to overthrow other countries regimes. They haven't got a leg to stand on. So when people say Russia interfered in the US election, my response is great, well done to them.
Great, well done. But whether the CIA are corrupt is not the issue.
Trump is not claiming they are corrupt. He says he believes them. So are you saying that Trump is complicit in this corruption, an is therefore corrupt?
Trump is saying that despite the evidence presented to him over numerous months, he has decided, based on nothing that he has ever told us, that they are simply making it all up. Apparently, according to posters on here, it is either because they hate Russia, hate Trump or a combination of both.
Now if the CIA are corrupt, to the point that they are actively moving against the POTUS, then the heads of the org should be charged with treason. Trump must know who these people are, yet he continues to do nothing.
So, the GOP believes them, Trump believes them, other governments have said they have evidence. But you, not knowing any of the evidence have decided that they are all lying. Everyone is lying. All because they all want to take Trump down. Including himself. for some reason.
I just have no sympathy and actually glad it happened. A taste of their own medicine for a change. Maybe they should look at their own past and learn in the future to not interfere in other countries elections and regimes and maybe they won't receive blowback.0 -
Before you get worked up over somebody's comments it might be worth having a gander at their registration date and comment history. Some people are not worth the effort.
There seems to have been a massive push for democrat registration across the country with Michelle Obama starting a campaign to encourage it as well. Of course none of this will matter if voter suppression and compromised ballot machines aren't addressed before November.
More evidence of Republicans not caring at best, being complicit at worst.House Republicans are refusing to provide additional funding for state election security grants in a spending bill despite the move upsetting Democrats pointing at Russia's election interference.
Democrats want to continue funding the grants program to help states boost security for their voting systems, The Washington Post reported Thursday.
Republicans, however, argue that the program, which is overseen by the federal Election Assistance Commission, is fully funded and does not need the additional allocations.
http://thehill.com/homenews/house/397805-house-gop-refuse-to-boost-funding-for-election-security0 -
The notion of the US handing over its former Ambassador to Russia is so absolutely bizarre. I'm sorry Mods but this is up there with Dougal in Fr Ted; that's mad stuff altogether.
Putin actually knew he could get away with this nonsense with Trump?0 -
aloyisious wrote: »Re Vlad's offer to Don of his people helping R Mueller's investigation, and the mention of the Russian interest in interviewing two named people, incl a former US Ambassador to Russia, MSN is running a link to a Time Magazine report that the White House and the Dept of State are at loggerheads over Russia's request, allegedly under consideration by Don, to interview 11 US citizens for unspecified crimes. The 11 US citizens include the former ambassador. It seems the Dept is not agreeing to Vlad's request, which seems to be a quid pro quo for the Kremlin to assist Muellers investigation. “The overall assertions that have come out of the Russian government are absolutely absurd: the fact that they want to question 11 American citizens and the assertions that the Russian government is making about those American citizens,” spokeswoman Heather Nauert told reporters. I can't locate a link to the Time story but reckon that the link below, seeing as it's from Don's news agency pal, may be of equal value. It's a copy of a USA Today report.
https://www.fox23.com/news/national-news/why-is-trump-open-to-letting-russia-interrogate-americans-including-former-us-ambassador-mcfaul/793319322
This is nuts! The fact that he's even considering this is so insane, I can scarcely comprehend it. What must the individuals in question be thinking? "The f***kin president wants to hand me over to Putin!". Failure to uphold the constitution is one thing (Trump flouts that daily) but failure to protect your own citizens is beyond the pale.
The notion that Putin would co-operate with Mueller is utterly daft. When UK police were investigating the Kremlin-backed murder of Alexander Litvinenko, the Kremlin allowed them to interview chief suspect Andrei Lugovoy. When they were satisfied they had their man and requested he be extradited, the Kremlin told them to f*** off. To add insult to injury, the same Lugovoy is now a sitting deputy in the Duma.0 -
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Cheerful Spring wrote: »Its about time the US intelligence agencies prove its allegations and speculation. Trump is the president he has to have seen this intelligence and doesn't believe it and frankly looking at from the outside I see nothing that shows Trump is working for Putin. Trump brought up a great point why has the DNC refused to hand over the server to the FBI, instead they had an outside firm look at it and reach conclusions.
Just on this one - No , it's not a great point by Trump , it's yet another example of extreme obfuscation by him.
For a start it's not 1 Server , it's 140 Servers - An entire Data centres worth.
The firm contracted by the DNC are one of the leading cyber-security firms in the world and are contracted to the FBI for a lot of work. So their credentials are beyond reproach.
They (DNC & the Cyber Security firm) complied fully with every evidence request from the FBI , and this has been confirmed by the FBI.
What was provided were complete digital images of every server and all the logs etc from the entire network infrastructure , which is what the FBI wanted. Having this effectively allows them to recreate the hacking in a virtual environment and "watch it live".
They never confiscate the physical hardware of a "victim" in cases like this. They reason they take the hardware from Criminals has more to do with "taking their stuff to shut them down and annoy them" than it has to do with any evidentiary value they might hold.
A good analogy I saw in a Politico article during the week about the difference in value of providing the Digital images and network logs vs. the physical equipment was this :-
If you were to think of this like a physical crime scene. The digital copies etc. are like providing full HD Audio/Video surveillance of an entire building from every possible angle for the entire duration of the crime and all the GPS data from all the cars that the criminals used to drive to and from the scene. Whereas the physical hardware would be like handing over the keys to the building 2 weeks after the crime after the cleaners had been through the place.
So - No , Trump does not make a good point he is (possibly deliberately) misunderstanding how cyber security works for a cheap sound-bite for his base.0 -
everlast75 wrote: »No, but they turn into them. Stayed tuned to Manafort for example.
Mueller has just listed 500 pieces of evidence in the first Manafort trial. 500!
Good luck to the lawyer trying to bat away 500 items.0 -
Latest tweet from Trump is unsurprising"The Summit with Russia was a great success, except with the real enemy of the people, the Fake News Media. I look forward to our second meeting so that we can start implementing some of the many things discussed, including stopping terrorism, security for Israel, nuclear........"
He's essentially taking up where Nixon left off and is going further and further down that road0 -
Trump is just winging it like a baker would do if they had to work in a garage fixing cars. He can't believe he is President, doesn't know how to be a politician and of course he is corrupt. He is a multi billionaire. I also never said they are lying about Russian interference.
I just have no sympathy and actually glad it happened. A taste of their own medicine for a change. Maybe they should look at their own past and learn in the future to not interfere in other countries elections and regimes and maybe they won't receive blowback.
This is a pretty petty view, the average person is not responsible for questionable US foreign policy. Trump's behaviour is causing considerable damage to innocent people, you're rejoicing when we're only weeks after a load of children were in cages, separated from their parents. Many of them will never see their parents again. So you should not be glad about the reality of what the united states is becoming.0 -
Latest tweet from Trump is unsurprising
He's essentially taking up where Nixon left off and is going further and further down that road
I wouldn't sully the goodish name of Richard M. Nixon comparing him with Trump. Trump is making Huge progress to being the worst U.S president ever.0 -
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So shock horror that the President has decided to weight into on the Federal Reserve(which is meant to be outside of political influence) and the stock market and the Dollar fell and the white house have had to clean up his mess.0
This discussion has been closed.
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