Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III

pixelburp

Wanderer78 wrote: »

im completely convinced now, as the weeks, months and years pass by, this country is slowly moving towards civil war

Civil war, no; but all this stirring up of militant behaviour through anti-government, pro gun, pro 'freedom' rhetoric must surely come to a violent head. I could easily see an armed coup taking place at state or county level by one of the many paranoid militias that exist, with doubtlessly tragic results.

wnolan1992

Water John wrote: »

Well, it finished Rubio ever rerunning for POTUS any way.

Heh, someone's forgotten the amount of scandals that "finished" Donald Trump's POTUS campaign over the 18 months leading up to the 2016 election.

aloyisious

pixelburp wrote: »

Civil war, no; but all this stirring up of militant behaviour through anti-government, pro gun, pro 'freedom' rhetoric must surely come to a violent head. I could easily see an armed coup taking place at state or county level by one of the many paranoid militias that exist, with doubtlessly tragic results.

Look back at Waco, Texas.....

Penn

robinph wrote: »

Except what would actually happen is that the bad guy enters the school, shoots teacher, bad guy now has two guns and some more ammo.

Exactly. Or teacher hears gunshots, runs out into hall with gun drawn, sees someone down the hall turning around, shoots and kills them. Not the gunman.

Regardless, even if the gunman was able to get into one classroom, shoot the teacher and some of the students before another trained teacher came in and shot him, that's still a teacher and a bunch of students who died needlessly.

The people who think arming teachers is the way to go are fools to think the teachers would be able to take out the gunman immediately before any innocent people get shot are living in "I bet I could be like John McClane and take out a bunch of terrorists if I was in Die Hard" fairytale of their own making.

david75

Water John wrote: »

Well, it finished Rubio ever rerunning for POTUS any way.

Did you see the townhall clip with one of the survivors asking him will he refuse all NRA money?
He obviously totally waffled the answer despite repeated attempts to get him to answer, but it was abundantly clear he has Presidential aspirations.
‘They’re buying into my agenda’

It was shocking as an answer to that that question.

mcmoustache

Mueller seems to think that coffee boy, Russo-file for hire and vice-president-selector Manafort and his assistant Gates might not be on the up and up. If not, I don't know why he's squeezing their balls so hard. 32 new charges between them.

I'm guessing that the severity of the charges are proportional to Gates's resistance to a guilty plea.

Former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort and his former deputy, Rick Gates, were indicted on new tax and bank fraud changes as U.S. Special Counsel Robert Mueller mounted a fresh legal attack to strengthen his case against the men.

The new 32-count indictment adds to one filed Oct. 27 in Washington that charged the men with failing to disclose their political consulting work in Ukraine and laundering millions of dollars. Manafort’s attorneys had attacked that indictment by saying Mueller unfairly accused them of money laundering for failing to register their foreign lobbying work.

But the new indictment doesn’t include money laundering and failing to register under the Foreign Agents Registration Act, a rare criminal use of a statute more typically used in civil cases. The FARA charge was underpinning the money-laundering counts in the first indictment, and removing both charges could ease the path for prosecutors at trial.

Here are the charges.

1 Subscribing to False United States Individual Income Tax Returns (2010) (26 U.S.C. §7206(1); 18 U.S.C. §2) Manafort
2 Subscribing to False United States Individual Income Tax Returns (2011) (26 U.S.C. §7206(1); 18 U.S.C. §2) Manafort
3 Subscribing to False United States Individual Income Tax Returns (2012) (26 U.S.C. §7206(1); 18 U.S.C. §2) Manafort
4 Subscribing to False United States Individual Income Tax Returns (2013) (26 U.S.C. §7206(1); 18 U.S.C. §2) Manafort
5 Subscribing to False United States Individual Income Tax Returns (2014) (26 U.S.C. §7206(1); 18 U.S.C. §2) Manafort
6 Assisting in the Preparation of False United States Individual Income (2010) (26 U.S.C. §7206 (2)) Gates
7 Assisting in the Preparation of False United States Individual Income (2011) (26 U.S.C. §7206 (2)) Gates
8 Assisting in the Preparation of False United States Individual Income (2012) (26 U.S.C. §7206 (2)) Gates
9 Assisting in the Preparation of False United States Individual Income (2013) (26 U.S.C. §7206 (2)) Gates
10 Assisting in the Preparation of False United States Individual Income (2014) (26 U.S.C. §7206 (2)) Gates
11 Failure To File Reports Of Foreign Bank And Financial Accounts (2011) (31 U.S.C. §5314 and §5322(a); 18 U.S.C. §2) Manafort
12 Failure To File Reports Of Foreign Bank And Financial Accounts (2012) (31 U.S.C. §5314 and §5322(a); 18 U.S.C. §2) Manafort
13 Failure To File Reports Of Foreign Bank And Financial Accounts (2013) (31 U.S.C. §5314 and §5322(a); 18 U.S.C. §2) Manafort
14 Failure To File Reports Of Foreign Bank And Financial Accounts (2014) (31 U.S.C. §5314 and §5322(a); 18 U.S.C. §2) Manafort
15 Subscribing to False United States Individual Income Tax Returns (2010) (26 U.S.C. § 7206(1); 18 U.S.C. §2) Gates
16 Subscribing to False United States Individual Income Tax Returns (2011) (26 U.S.C. § 7206(1); 18 U.S.C. §2) Gates
17 Subscribing to False United States Individual Income Tax Returns (2012) (26 U.S.C. § 7206(1); 18 U.S.C. §2) Gates
18 Subscribing to False United States Individual Income Tax Returns (2013) (26 U.S.C. § 7206(1); 18 U.S.C. §2) Gates
19 Subscribing to False United States Individual Income Tax Returns (2014) (26 U.S.C. § 7206(1); 18 U.S.C. §2) Gates
20 Subscribing to a False Amended United States Individual Income Tax Return (2013) (26 U.S.C. §7206(1); 18 U.S.C. §2) Gates
21 Failure To File Reports Of Foreign Bank And Financial Accounts (2011) (31 U.S.C. §5314 and §5322(a); 18 U.S.C. § 2) Gates
22 Failure To File Reports Of Foreign Bank And Financial Accounts (2012) (31 U.S.C. §5314 and §5322(a); 18 U.S.C. § 2) Gates
23 Failure To File Reports Of Foreign Bank And Financial Accounts (2013) (31 U.S.C. §5314 and §5322(a); 18 U.S.C. § 2) Gates
24 Bank Fraud Conspiracy (Lender B/$3.4 million loan) (18 U.S.C. §1349) Manafort Gates
25 Bank Fraud (Lender B/$3.4 million loan) (18 U.S.C. §§1344, 2) Manafort Gates
26 Bank Fraud Conspiracy (Lender C/$1 million loan) (18 U.S.C. §1349) Manafort Gates
27 Bank Fraud (Lender C/$1 million loan) (18 U.S.C. §1344, 2) Manafort Gates
28 Bank Fraud Conspiracy (Lender B/$5.5 million loan) (18 U.S.C. §1349) Manafort Gates
29 Bank Fraud Conspiracy (Lender D/$9.5 million loan) (18 U.S.C. §1349) Manafort Gates
30 Bank Fraud (Lender D/$9.5 million loan) (18 U.S.C. §§1344, 2) Manafort Gates
31 Bank Fraud Conspiracy (Lender D/$6.5 million loan) (18 U.S.C. §1349) Manafort Gates
32 Bank Fraud (Lender D/$6.5 million loan) (18 U.S.C. §§1344, 2) Manafort Gates

Mueller is playing standard chess while Trump is sticking his queen up his bum.

aloyisious

CNN news has included a clip in which the Broward County Sheriff at a public briefing revealed a uniformed armed deputy was at the scene during the shooting and stayed outside the building for six (6) minutes while the killer was shooting his former school mates. The report mentioned the deputy was there as his regular duty, and not as going to the school in response to shooting reports to the police. The report has it that the deputy has since resigned from the job. The period the deputy stayed outside the building was taken from timed camera footage.

mcmoustache

aloyisious wrote: »

CNN news has included a clip in which the Broward County Sheriff at a public briefing revealed a uniformed armed deputy was at the scene during the shooting and stayed outside the building for six (6) minutes while the killer was shooting his former school mates. The report mentioned the deputy was there as his regular duty, and not as going to the school in response to shooting reports to the police. The report has it that the deputy has since resigned from the job. The period the deputy stayed outside the building was taken from timed camera footage.

I feel sorry for anyone who would have to intervene in something like that. It's easy to say "Just grab you gun and go pew pew pew" but reality is very different. It's one thing for a swat team do go into a building and shoot everyone in there but what about a place where the shooter looks just like the kids? Screw these trumpers and their Diehard fantasies.

david75

mcmoustache wrote: »

I feel sorry for anyone who would have to intervene in something like that. It's easy to say "Just grab you gun and go pew pew pew" but reality is very different. It's one thing for a swat team do go into a building and shoot everyone in there but what about a place where the shooter looks just like the kids? Screw these trumpers and their Diehard fantasies.

You always see these gun nut blow hards saying they would have done this or that. And they seem to almost perv on that situation and the chances to let rip and kill. As in your point though they’re effing cowards like any of us would be and would freeze. Even if they were armed.

mcmoustache

david75 wrote: »

You always see these gun nut blow hards saying they would have done this or that. And they seem to almost perv on that situation and the chances to let rip and kill. As in your point though they’re effing cowards like any of us would be and would freeze. Even if they were armed.

Exactly. Arming teachers is a terrible idea. The only way that this could work is if they turned schools into prisons.

david75

We’re living in a world where the supposed shining light of western civilisation and democracy (ha!) wants to arm teachers

I can’t even begin to let that sink in.

This is dystopian and completely appalling.

Itssoeasy

david75 wrote: »

We’re living in a world where the supposed shining light of western civilisation and democracy (ha!) wants to arm teachers

I can’t even begin to let that sink in.

This is dystopian and completely appalling.

Yeah the shining city on the hill is a bit dull.

CelticRambler

mcmoustache wrote: »

It's easy to say "Just grab you gun and go pew pew pew" but reality is very different. It's one thing for a swat team do go into a building and shoot everyone in there but what about a place where the shooter looks just like the kids?

A whole slew of spokesmen for various paid gunmen in the US (law enforcement, ex-army, personal protection, etc) have all made the same point today: that they're paid to continuously train and reguarly carry out exercises under stress and still they suffer moments of indecision, sluggish reaction times and shaky hands when faced with a real-world situation. They were unanimous in rejecting the notion that a school full of good guys with guns would make any difference.

But in the meantime, Trump says maybe it should be as many as 40% of teachers ... :eek:

Wonder where they're going to get all the guns? :rolleyes:

mcmoustache

CelticRambler wrote: »

A whole slew of spokesmen for various paid gunmen in the US (law enforcement, ex-army, personal protection, etc) have all made the same point today: that they're paid to continuously train and reguarly carry out exercises under stress and still they suffer moments of indecision, sluggish reaction times and shaky hands when faced with a real-world situation. They were unanimous in rejecting the notion that a school full of good guys with guns would make any difference.

But in the meantime, Trump says maybe it should be as many as 40% of teachers ... :eek:

Wonder where they're going to get all the guns? :rolleyes:

It could work in the movies but that's about it.

Leroy42

Looks like Trump is vindicated yet again. In the latest round of indictments it doesn't even mention Trump collusion.

It must be making him so mad though. All he wants to do is MAGA and all those around him lying their asses off to him. If only he had known what Manafort was really like, or Flynn. Or Rich. Or that guy who beats his wife.

david75

Many teachers in poorer areas are feeding kids out of their own pockets and even basic supplies like pencils and paper aren’t tax deductible and they have to pay full whack.

So they’d be made to pay for their own guns and ammo?

wnolan1992

Penn wrote: »

Exactly. Or teacher hears gunshots, runs out into hall with gun drawn, sees someone down the hall turning around, shoots and kills them. Not the gunman.

Regardless, even if the gunman was able to get into one classroom, shoot the teacher and some of the students before another trained teacher came in and shot him, that's still a teacher and a bunch of students who died needlessly.

The people who think arming teachers is the way to go are fools to think the teachers would be able to take out the gunman immediately before any innocent people get shot are living in "I bet I could be like John McClane and take out a bunch of terrorists if I was in Die Hard" fairytale of their own making.

Plus, let's leave aside the practicalities of the situation in terms of whether arming the teachers would be effective or not.

Is it just me that thinks it's ludicrous that a teacher may be required to have a holster and loaded weapon on them while trying to teach kids? Like, again, leave aside whether they'd be effective in a crisis or not, how ****ing bizarre is the notion that TEACHERS might be expected to strap a weapon to themselves every morning before heading to work.

At what point do you sit back and think "Hey, is our country really THAT dangerous now, that our TEACHERS need to be armed on a daily basis?"

It just... I don't even... like, my mind actually physically hurts trying to wrap my head around America's attitude to guns.

aloyisious

My last input on the shooting, with respect to the thread topic. I saw this opinion-piece on the NYT [online] front page and "googled" for it elswhere....

https://ewnews.com/a-combat-zone-with-desks/

aloyisious

It made the news last week that Russia soldiers were killed in Syria following a clash with US allies there. The response from Russia was that the men were NOT serving Russian soldiers.

The Washington Post is running a story that the men were mercenaries allegedly in the employ of a company called Wagner which is connected to Yevgeniy Prigozhin and that intercepts of messages between him and a Syrian Govt official had him as telling the official that he had "secured permission" from a Russian Minister to move ahead with a "fast and strong" initiative that would take place early in Feb.

Yevgeniy is the Russian allegedly behind the hackers base used to hack and interfere with the US presidential election system and is also named in the group of Russians indicted by Rob Meuller a few days ago. Yevgeniy is allegedly a very close [chef] friend of Vlad Putin. If the reports are true and correct, then Don Trump should have some questions to put to Vlad Putin, who's word he trusts in respct to the hacking attacks.

I googled for aother source to the story: https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/putins-shadow-army-suffers-a-setback-in-syria. Please note that I do not have previous history knowledge of the New Yorker publication or how trusted it's reporters, commentators and inputting sources are in the media world, in respect of verity. I don't hve a W/P account so couldn't copy and paste it's own story link here...

everlast75

There's a former judge who now has a show on fox.

Her solution was metal detectors, perimeter fences etc.

Pro gun Americans are like addicts. When confronted with the problem, they seek to normalize their behaviour, saying it's everyone else's fault. Rather than address the issue and have to stop their destructive behaviour, others should just get on and do what they have to do to allow them to keep getting their hit.

Politicians, representatives, "reporters" who are trotting out the line that guns are okay are either in the pocket of the NRA or literally addicted to their guns. There is no other explanation.

Penn

Leroy42 wrote: »

Looks like Trump is vindicated yet again. In the latest round of indictments it doesn't even mention Trump collusion.

It must be making him so mad though. All he wants to do is MAGA and all those around him lying their asses off to him. If only he had known what Manafort was really like, or Flynn. Or Rich. Or that guy who beats his wife.

Yeah, for a guy who claimed he'd pick "the best people" to be in his administration, he sure did manage to do the complete opposite of that.

For Forks Sake

Penn wrote: »

Yeah, for a guy who claimed he'd pick "the best people" to be in his administration, he sure did manage to do the complete opposite of that.

I guess Mueller got assigned the task of draining the swamp as well - Trump will probably claim it was part of his own cunning plan at some stage :rolleyes:

jooksavage

everlast75 wrote: »

There's a former judge who now has a show on fox.

Her solution was metal detectors, perimeter fences etc.

Pro gun Americans are like addicts. When confronted with the problem, they seek to normalize their behaviour, saying it's everyone else's fault. Rather than address the issue and have to stop their destructive behaviour, others should just get on and do what they have to do to allow them to keep getting their hit.

Politicians, representatives, "reporters" who are trotting out the line that guns are okay are either in the pocket of the NRA or literally addicted to their guns. There is no other explanation.

Yeah I saw a guy on CNN the other day who described himself as a "right-leaning centrist" and he said that schools were just going to have to be more like airports and eventually the kids and teachers will get used to it. Insanity.

They're proposing to spend hundreds of millions training and arming teachers , and billions installing over-the-top security facilities... all so Zeke and Cletus can play soldier with high powered semi-automatic rifles. Is it any wonder their debt is spiralling.

Zubeneschamali

jooksavage wrote: »

They're proposing to spend hundreds of millions training and arming teachers , and billions installing over-the-top security facilities...

No, they really aren't. They are just waffling until the fuss blows over, same as ever - they will not spend a dime on extra school security.

Leroy42

The other aspect of this latest wheeze from Trump, and this was question by a reporter to SHS during the press briefing that after the Las Vegas shooting it was stated that now (in the immediate aftermath) was not the time to talk gun policy so he asked what had Trump done in the intervening period to get anything moving.

It is very clear, since he is having listening sessions and meeting with law enforcement, that he has done nothing since Las Vegas, and thus he is firing out ideas that haven't been thought through. Basically he is brainstorming in the middle of a meeting.

So just to sum that up. In the wake of the single biggest multiple shooting in US history, the POTUS and the WH has done nothing at all to try to deal with it and prevent it happening again. The single biggest terrorist attack on US soil for many years, and POTUS didn't even hold meetings about it. Since that incident, we have had the shooting at the church in Texas, just to jolt him into action, but again nothing. And a week after the school shooting he is still making up ideas.

58 people murdered and no task force was set up, no policy think tank was initiated. Nothing.

demfad

Leroy42 wrote: »

Looks like Trump is vindicated yet again. In the latest round of indictments it doesn't even mention Trump collusion.

It must be making him so mad though. All he wants to do is MAGA and all those around him lying their asses off to him. If only he had known what Manafort was really like, or Flynn. Or Rich. Or that guy who beats his wife.

This is Trump's campaign Manager and deputy campaign manager indicted for laundering money paid to them by Putin/Kremlin connected Ukraine/Russian oiligarchs. Other counts are for using false pretences to get loans from US banks during the actual presidential campaign.
If Trump somehow views this as 'vindication' then we can see that he is in very serious trouble indeed.

Just to add*: Trump's insides will be soft realising what access Mueller has to financial records.

Christy42

jooksavage wrote: »

Yeah I saw a guy on CNN the other day who described himself as a "right-leaning centrist" and he said that schools were just going to have to be more like airports and eventually the kids and teachers will get used to it. Insanity.

They're proposing to spend hundreds of millions training and arming teachers , and billions installing over-the-top security facilities... all so Zeke and Cletus can play soldier with high powered semi-automatic rifles. Is it any wonder their debt is spiralling.

Just the drills they are having are insane. How do you run them and not think you have a problem? Interesting to note that they expect to easily get the money for all these things (and are probably right in that fact) when there was never a suggestion of properly funding their education system to help it, you know, teach people stuff.

Their logic starts with how can I ensure I am nor in any way inconvenienced and tries to justify how this will stop these attacks from there as opposed to how to stop this from happening in future.

Zubeneschamali

demfad wrote: »

If Trump somehow views this as 'vindication' then we can see that he is in very serious trouble indeed.

I think your Ironymeter (TM) needs a thump.

pixelburp

As someone elsewhere pointed out, the whole 'teachers with guns' tactic (sidebar; lord above is THIS where that country now finds itself, in place of any kind of hard introspection??) would become an immediate tragedy the first time an armed teacher confronts a violent-but-unarmed student (or a student armed with a knife etc.) and shoots them dead.

Leroy42

pixelburp wrote: »

As someone elsewhere pointed out, the whole 'teachers with guns' tactic (sidebar; lord above is THIS where that country now finds itself, in place of any kind of hard introspection??) would become an immediate tragedy the first time an armed teacher mistakenly a violent-but-unarmed student (or a student armed with a knife etc.) and shoots them dead.

Or misses and shoots an innocent dead. The level of missed shots by both the military and the police is quite high, I am not sure of the exact levels but I know it is know-where close to 100% (excluding snipers etc, I am talking about a like for like situation).

And in many cases the misses are by some margin, ie, a few feet either side. This is down to a number of factors, mostly due to the target actively trying to avoid being shot, the stress of the situation, and the chaos of the situation itself, with alarms going off, people screaming, probably death people lying on the floor, people running in all directions, the noise, smoke etc. All very different to the practice range.

And one must also take into account that the guy who did this walked out of the school afterwards as one of the students and ended up in McD's (or something similar). The point being, that even the kids in the school were confused about exactly what was going on and who was doing it.

And they think that some teacher (I mean that in terms of them not being a professional police or soldier) will be able to overcome all the things that effect fully trained police and soldiers and simply take out the gun man? And they say that the youth is being influenced by movies and video games?

Take even the previous shooting in a Texas church as an example. A man, with many years of shooting practice, confronted the gun man as he came out of the church. Not saying he wasn't a hero, but in effect he missed. The shooter was able to escape (at least from a brief period). Now, if that guy couldn't make it perfect, why should we think a teacher will do any better.