Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread III

Manic Moran

jobbridge4life wrote: »

You need to read into this further

It's behind a paywall for me. One can only access so many articles a month from them.

Guns are what killed the attendees at Pulse Nightclub, at the musical festival in Las Vegas, in the Church in Texas... Not sneakers... not being "dissed".

With respect: Father stabbed in front of 8-year-old son over a pair of sneakers. https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/New-Jersey-Father-Stabbed-to-Death-Defending-Son-From-Being-Robbed-of-Sneakers-Family-457926103.html
17-year old shot over a pair of sneakers. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/police-identify-youth-fatally-shot-at-recreation-center-in-southeast-washington/2017/12/19/b5abc28c-e4c2-11e7-a65d-1ac0fd7f097e_story.html?utm_term=.f8953ee0b990
Two stabbed to death by butterknife over disrespect. http://krcrtv.com/archive/police-man-stabbed-couple-with-butter-knife-over-disrespect_20160513212133205
14-year-old stabbed in the back over a pair of sneakers. (He survived) http://wjla.com/news/local/teen-stabbed-in-back-over-pair-of-air-jordans-chases-thieves-onto-metro-109572
Man stabs to death girlfriend's 20-year-old son over a pair of sneakers. https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20150319/high-bridge/police-identify-suspect-fatal-stabbing-over-sneakers-bronx
15-year-old stabbed twice over a pair of sneakers. http://articles.courant.com/2005-05-04/news/0505040056_1_state-police-stabbed-two-students
17-year-old ambushed and stabbed over a pair of sneakers. (Also survived) https://www.lipstickalley.com/threads/teen-stabbed-and-jumped-while-trying-to-sell-his-jordan-sneakers.1445023/

Need I go on?

Many Americans have simply lost any respect for the value of life. That is not a minor issue, and it has nothing to do with the availability of firearms. It has everything to do with being willing to kill over something incredibly trivial, be it chattel or your own feeling of self-worth. This problem will remain whether the firearms are available or not unless addressed.

There is something magical about it your kids should be allowed to go there with no guns involved.

You think I wouldn't prefer that? Unfortunately, I have no magic wand, and I don't believe anyone else does either. In fact, I'm not a big believer in magic, occasional family trips to The Magic Kingdom notwithstanding.

So, you can rely on appeals to magic, and I will deal with the grim reality that folks in the US keep looking to shoot up schools for the forseeable future, and that no amount of wishing we could legislate away a couple hundred million firearms will stop that. Saying that firearms have no place in schools becomes a bit redundant when someone actually shows up with intent to use one. The practical effective range of idealism is about 0meters.

ArthurDayne

Manic Moran wrote: »

It's behind a paywall for me. One can only access so many articles a month from them.



With respect: Father stabbed in front of 8-year-old son over a pair of sneakers. https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/New-Jersey-Father-Stabbed-to-Death-Defending-Son-From-Being-Robbed-of-Sneakers-Family-457926103.html
17-year old shot over a pair of sneakers. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/police-identify-youth-fatally-shot-at-recreation-center-in-southeast-washington/2017/12/19/b5abc28c-e4c2-11e7-a65d-1ac0fd7f097e_story.html?utm_term=.f8953ee0b990
Two stabbed to death by butterknife over disrespect. http://krcrtv.com/archive/police-man-stabbed-couple-with-butter-knife-over-disrespect_20160513212133205
14-year-old stabbed in the back over a pair of sneakers. (He survived) http://wjla.com/news/local/teen-stabbed-in-back-over-pair-of-air-jordans-chases-thieves-onto-metro-109572
Man stabs to death girlfriend's 20-year-old son over a pair of sneakers. https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20150319/high-bridge/police-identify-suspect-fatal-stabbing-over-sneakers-bronx
15-year-old stabbed twice over a pair of sneakers. http://articles.courant.com/2005-05-04/news/0505040056_1_state-police-stabbed-two-students
17-year-old ambushed and stabbed over a pair of sneakers. (Also survived) https://www.lipstickalley.com/threads/teen-stabbed-and-jumped-while-trying-to-sell-his-jordan-sneakers.1445023/

Need I go on?

Many Americans have simply lost any respect for the value of life. That is not a minor issue, and it has nothing to do with the availability of firearms. It has everything to do with being willing to kill over something incredibly trivial, be it chattel or your own feeling of self-worth. This problem will remain whether the firearms are available or not unless addressed.



You think I wouldn't prefer that? Unfortunately, I have no magic wand, and I don't believe anyone else does either. In fact, I'm not a big believer in magic, occasional family trips to The Magic Kingdom notwithstanding.

So, you can rely on appeals to magic, and I will deal with the grim reality that folks in the US keep looking to shoot up schools for the forseeable future, and that no amount of wishing we could legislate away a couple hundred million firearms will stop that. Saying that firearms have no place in schools becomes a bit redundant when someone actually shows up with intent to use one. The practical effective range of idealism is about 0meters.

Deep down, do you genuinely not realise how utterly paradoxical this post is, particularly the part in bold? You make a point about people losing respect for the value of line and being willing to kill over trivial things -- yet you cannot see the utter insanity of having gun laws which make it so much easier for these kinds of people to get their hands on lethal weaponry?

I think it is already insane to flood a society with guns, but to do so in a country which by your own admission has an issue with valuing life seems utterly and unequivocally mad.

Christy42

Manic Moran wrote: »

It's behind a paywall for me. One can only access so many articles a month from them.



With respect: Father stabbed in front of 8-year-old son over a pair of sneakers. https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/New-Jersey-Father-Stabbed-to-Death-Defending-Son-From-Being-Robbed-of-Sneakers-Family-457926103.html
17-year old shot over a pair of sneakers. https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/police-identify-youth-fatally-shot-at-recreation-center-in-southeast-washington/2017/12/19/b5abc28c-e4c2-11e7-a65d-1ac0fd7f097e_story.html?utm_term=.f8953ee0b990
Two stabbed to death by butterknife over disrespect. http://krcrtv.com/archive/police-man-stabbed-couple-with-butter-knife-over-disrespect_20160513212133205
14-year-old stabbed in the back over a pair of sneakers. (He survived) http://wjla.com/news/local/teen-stabbed-in-back-over-pair-of-air-jordans-chases-thieves-onto-metro-109572
Man stabs to death girlfriend's 20-year-old son over a pair of sneakers. https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20150319/high-bridge/police-identify-suspect-fatal-stabbing-over-sneakers-bronx
15-year-old stabbed twice over a pair of sneakers. http://articles.courant.com/2005-05-04/news/0505040056_1_state-police-stabbed-two-students
17-year-old ambushed and stabbed over a pair of sneakers. (Also survived) https://www.lipstickalley.com/threads/teen-stabbed-and-jumped-while-trying-to-sell-his-jordan-sneakers.1445023/

Need I go on?

Many Americans have simply lost any respect for the value of life. That is not a minor issue, and it has nothing to do with the availability of firearms. It has everything to do with being willing to kill over something incredibly trivial, be it chattel or your own feeling of self-worth. This problem will remain whether the firearms are available or not unless addressed.



You think I wouldn't prefer that? Unfortunately, I have no magic wand, and I don't believe anyone else does either. In fact, I'm not a big believer in magic, occasional family trips to The Magic Kingdom notwithstanding.

So, you can rely on appeals to magic, and I will deal with the grim reality that folks in the US keep looking to shoot up schools for the forseeable future, and that no amount of wishing we could legislate away a couple hundred million firearms will stop that. Saying that firearms have no place in schools becomes a bit redundant when someone actually shows up with intent to use one. The practical effective range of idealism is about 0meters.

This is largely just an argument for gun control. Who will pay for all the training teachers will need? I am sure there are many who can shoot but how many can react in a situation like that. We see from police related incidents that it is not easy even for professionals and these people will be miles outside their profession.

Idealism is the only thing keeping so many guns for sale. Given out at school raffles etc.

Giving teachers guns will do little. They are teachers who maybe shoot/hunt on the weekend. The odd school might have a vet or someone really useful in that situation but these people are not John McClain.

Given many schools are without enough supplies are you really expecting the expense to just be shouldered to train teachers from across the country. I guarantee they do not have the training as is. This is not a shooting range. The opposition are not deer. Course who knows with Republicans, training civilians for combat situations could be a lot easier to get funding for than a few more erasers.

Letting them take in guns is not enough. You give out about appeals to magic but giving the teachers guns is just an appeal to Hollywood.

aloyisious

Re the 2020 elections, what standing does Senator Kirsten Gillibrand [D-NY] have within national politics and within the D-Party itself?

aloyisious

Don pouring more into the swamp... The WaPo has had another W/house official giving it news story material. Trump’s personal pilot ‘in the mix’ to lead the FAA. A White House official said John Dunkin, who flew Trump around the country on a Boeing 757 during the 2016 campaign, is on the administration’s shortlist to head the agency that regulates civil aviation in the United States. Nothing like putting some-one you personally know and who might know his way around the business the Govt Agency deals with in charge of the agency.

Separate story. Former irish M.E.P. Pat Cox willing to assist Rob Meuller if asked. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/pat-cox-willing-to-assist-mueller-investigation-if-asked-1.3405269

FatherTed

Manic Moran wrote: »

I agree. I fully agree. I have been saying so since Post 1 on these threads, all those years ago. There is something wrong with our society. We have a societal or sociological (or both) problem.

But fixing that is going to take years, even if the politicians actually try to do it. In the meantime, school shootings are going to keep happening. If we have the money to do it, which we probably don't, sure, put armed cops in every school. The Arapahoe School shooting was over in less than a minute and a half, the amount of time it took the cop to get from one part of the school to the shooter. And, honestly, I think an expensive cop is better served actually policing the populace, perhaps helping to address the societal issues resulting in our ridiculous murder rate, than being paid to sit around a peaceful school for 20 years until he draws retirement, in case of the very slim chance of a shooting happening at their location. Maybe private security, but also not cheap. A practicable compromise, which does not cost so much, is a partially armed staff: A route chosen by a number of districts thus far, and it seems a number will join them.

Arming teachers is an incredibly stupid idea. Their job is to teach, not to provide protection from shooters. Also, I'm sure kindergarten kids starting school will immediately be comfortable during the teacher has a gun orientation.

My daughter just finished high school last year here in Connecticut. There was always a police car or two at the school an hour before school opened and an hour after and then again at dismissal. It was hard to get into the school during the days as I did a few times, doors locked, having to be buzzed in and show ID etc. So I'm not sure why other places follow this example.

Peregrinus

FatherTed wrote: »

Arming teachers is an incredibly stupid idea. Their job is to teach, not to provide protection from shooters. Also, I'm sure kindergarten kids starting school will immediately be comfortable during the teacher has a gun orientation.

My daughter just finished high school last year here in Connecticut. There was always a police car or two at the school an hour before school opened and an hour after and then again at dismissal. It was hard to get into the school during the days as I did a few times, doors locked, having to be buzzed in and show ID etc. So I'm not sure why other places follow this example.

Well, there was an armed guard posted at the school in the Parkland case and, if news reports are to believed several other police officers (armed - they all are) in the immediate vicinity who were alerted to the incident. None of them intervened.

There has been much criticism of the police for not intervening. I'm inclined to await further investigations before making a judgment one way or the other about that. It's not at all clear that the armed guard and/or the police intervening would have resulted in a better outcome; it might easily have made things worse. I think in the US they obviously need to think about security at schools, but (as your own experience shows) they obviously do think about it, and there are no magic solutions here. They still have a school shootings problem that the rest of the world just goggles at.

I'm also suspicious that, in some cases, people default to "tougher security!" not because they think its the most effective solution, but because it avoids them having to confront other possible responses that might be politically controversial (if they are politicians) or that might for them to confront their unexamined faith in violence as a means of ensuring the triumph of good over evil.

Penn

Peregrinus wrote: »

Well, there was an armed guard posted at the school in the Parkland case and, if news reports are to believed several other police officers (armed - they all are) in the immediate vicinity who were alerted to the incident. None of them intervened.

Which also raises the question; if you arm 20% of teachers and gunshots start ringing out in the school, are the armed teachers supposed to go towards the gunfire and try to kill the gunman, or stay and protect the classroom of students in their care in case the gunman enters that classroom?

Because then, the armed teacher is either abandoning their classroom of students bearing in mind they have no idea how many gunman there are, likely where they are, what weaponry they have etc, or the school is willingly considering 80% of classrooms as sacrificial.

Professor Moriarty

This 'arm the teachers' madness happens when your cognition is informed by Grand Theft Auto. More guns = I win.

aloyisious

Penn wrote: »

Which also raises the question; if you arm 20% of teachers and gunshots start ringing out in the school, are the armed teachers supposed to go towards the gunfire and try to kill the gunman, or stay and protect the classroom of students in their care in case the gunman enters that classroom?

Because then, the armed teacher is either abandoning their classroom of students bearing in mind they have no idea how many gunman there are, likely where they are, what weaponry they have etc, or the school is willingly considering 80% of classrooms as sacrificial.

I'm mindful that Cruz was a former pupil expelled from the school and presumably have been taught by the teachers & known at a personal/family level. It would be a absolute unknowable on what would happen if an armed teacher faced off against a former pupil in such a way.

ArthurDayne

This 'arm the teachers' idea is so preposterously stupid that, only for the fact it is being espoused by powerful people in America, I would not even dignify it with serious criticism. How far down the rabbit hole must a developed, first world country be to even muse about this as a viable solution?

Think about it in practice, are you going to force trainee teachers to take weapons training in between their Sociology and Curriculum Planning seminars? If a teacher opts not to carry a gun in school, is this to suggest that society should hold them accountable for any massacres that take place there? Is some ordinary guy or girl, who just so happens to be a teacher in a school which suddenly comes under attack by a crazed gunman, supposed to go from teaching calculus at 13.00 to John Rambo at 13.05? How can they ever be expected to have the requisite training and expertise to tactically take down a shooter? What if they totally mess up and kill a child accidentally? Do we really think that crazy shooter people, most of whom seem to commit suicide at the end of their rampage, are going to be scared of Ms Tilberry, the 59 year old Geography teacher, and her Glock?

To put this kind of responsibility on an ordinary teacher is so outrageously idiotic that the very suggestion makes my head spin with bewildered anger. And yet, the country's most nominally powerful man is suggesting just that. My God.

ArthurDayne

ArthurDayne wrote: »

To put this kind of responsibility on an ordinary teacher is so outrageously idiotic that the very suggestion makes my head spin with bewildered anger. And yet, the country's most nominally powerful man is suggesting just that. My God.

Its bat**** crazy, but it also seems to be working as a distraction from the Mueller investigation and everything else.

20Cent

Shows how powerful the nra are.

Books, teaching materials and support nope. Bullets and guns yes.

Leroy42

20Cent wrote: »

Shows how powerful the nra are.

Books, teaching materials and support nope. Bullets and guns yes.

If they really believe that there should be a gun deterrent in the schools, then really they need to stump up for professionals in that area.

Be that ex military, or on duty cops or whatever, this is simply a cheapskate way of pretending to deal with the issue.

Penn

Deleted User wrote: »

Its bat**** crazy, but it also seems to be working as a distraction from the Mueller investigation and everything else.

On the contrary, I think it's distracting Trump from the Mueller investigation more than anything else, and stopping Trump from b*tching about it as much as he probably wants to. What the Mueller investigation needs more than anything, and especially more than being a daily news item, is time. Time to continue building the case unimpeded. A distraction like a nationwide discussion and argument about gun control is keeping Trump occupied.

Zubeneschamali

Deleted User wrote: »

Its bat**** crazy, but it also seems to be working as a distraction from the Mueller investigation and everything else.

Good. Let Mueller do his job, he doesn't need publicity or attention from Trump and co.

Leroy42

I've been listening to some of those NPR Embedded podcasts.

When all the different strands are pulled together, it amazes me that anyone has an support left for Trump. The sheer volume of possible issues should have, in any normal democracy with a concern for law, to have impeached him long ago.

demfad

Penn wrote: »

On the contrary, I think it's distracting Trump from the Mueller investigation more than anything else, and stopping Trump from b*tching about it as much as he probably wants to. What the Mueller investigation needs more than anything, and especially more than being a daily news item, is time. Time to continue building the case unimpeded. A distraction like a nationwide discussion and argument about gun control is keeping Trump occupied.

Trump is successfully distracting the media from discussing gun control. IMO if he wanted to make a comment on the Gates plea or the Manafort superseding indictments he would have. His quietness is telling. He has privately voiced (leaked) concerns about what Manafort knows but was confident Manafort would not flip. He is afraid to go there with Manafort.
It looks like Manafort conspired with Russia for election assistance. If this was done with the behest or approval of Trump, then at the least, his presidency will be over.
If Manafort flips expect Trump to lash out wildly in self preservation!

Zubeneschamali

demfad wrote: »

If this was done with the behest or approval of Trump, then at the least, his presidency will be over.

Aren't you the optimist!

I see no reason to suppose the Republican Party will impeach Trump no matter what Mueller says. Since it became obvious that Trump is guilty, they have been busily spreading enough baloney to justify calling Mueller a spoofer and binning his report. To end his Presidency, the Dems would have to win control of both houses in this years elections.

Nixon resigned rather than face disgrace, but Trump doesn't care. It might be faster just to beat him in the 2020 election in the end.

Professor Moriarty

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Aren't you the optimist!

I see no reason to suppose the Republican Party will impeach Trump no matter what Mueller says. Since it became obvious that Trump is guilty, they have been busily spreading enough baloney to justify calling Mueller a spoofer and binning his report. To end his Presidency, the Dems would have to win control of both houses in this years elections.

Nixon resigned rather than face disgrace, but Trump doesn't care. It might be faster just to beat him in the 2020 election in the end.

Despite the sewage storm swirling around The Donald, and the fact that he is in his 70s, he remains firm favourite for 2020 with the bookies at 2/1. Closest is Warren at 12/1.

Penn

https://www.apnews.com/27431e0cf11d4f53b6152754818d824c/The-Latest:-Eric-Trump-favors-'common-sense'-gun-measures?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=AP_Politics&__twitter_impression=true

President Donald Trump is telling the nation’s governors that he would have run into the deadly Florida high school shooting “even if I didn’t have a weapon.”

The president is again finding fault with officers who didn’t stop the Florida gunman who carried out the massacre earlier this month. Trump says the deputies “weren’t exactly Medal of Honor winners.”

He tells 39 of the nation’s governors, “I really believe I’d run in there even if I didn’t have a weapon.”

I wonder how quickly he would have been able to run in there with those bone spurs still aggravating him.

My god Trump has done it... he's actually become a parody of a parody of himself.

demfad

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

Aren't you the optimist!

I see no reason to suppose the Republican Party will impeach Trump no matter what Mueller says. Since it became obvious that Trump is guilty, they have been busily spreading enough baloney to justify calling Mueller a spoofer and binning his report. To end his Presidency, the Dems would have to win control of both houses in this years elections.

Nixon resigned rather than face disgrace, but Trump doesn't care. It might be faster just to beat him in the 2020 election in the end.

I did share your opinion and I believe that the Republicans mean to cheat in the 2018 midterms: The WH has not instructed the FBI to safeguard the election from outside interference and Paul Ryan/WH have removed the very competent head of Cyber defense for the elections.
But I believe the amount and scale of criminal indictments will be of a massive scale. They have enough on Trump now with Gates, but with Manafort's testimony there could be no doubt, no room for the GOP to wriggle.
I am also beginning to suspect that there is another investigation brewing which will be into illegal foreign payments into the GOP and other groups including the NRA.
Another thing to remember with Trump: He is due to testify to Mueller or else plead the fifth. He will without doubt perjure himself (multiple times) if he testifies. He can't risk pleading the Fifth either.
On balance, I think he can't survive. But if the GOP win 2018 with Russian help we are looking at an authoritarian State.

demfad

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Despite the sewage storm swirling around The Donald, and the fact that he is in his 70s, he remains firm favourite for 2020 with the bookies at 2/1. Closest is Warren at 12/1.

In other words the sitting POTUS is 2/1 on to lose?
That ain't firm favourite....

spacecoyote

Court rejects Trump appeal on ‘Dreamers’ ruling: https://www.ft.com/content/fd82ad54-1b0f-11e8-aaca-4574d7dabfb6

For those that can't read the link, the supreme court has upheld the ruling from the lower courts that blocked his ability to deny protection to immigrants, so his March 5th deadline to start phasing it out is, in essence, rendered moot

pixelburp

Penn wrote: »

https://www.apnews.com/27431e0cf11d4f53b6152754818d824c/The-Latest:-Eric-Trump-favors-'common-sense'-gun-measures?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=AP_Politics&__twitter_impression=true



I wonder how quickly he would have been able to run in there with those bone spurs still aggravating him.

My god Trump has done it... he's actually become a parody of a parody of himself.

I'm frequently amazed at how little self awareness that man has; that he'd boast about how brave he'd be in a school shooting. I'll give the man one thing: he clearly, unashamedly believes his own hype and couldn't possibly be aware of the effect his words & deeds have on the greater world. How could he, when he's bragging about theoretical bravery - when history & YOuTube has shown him ducking behind his podium when a protestor rushed the stage during his 2016 campaign. But you know that even if challenged, that moment was 'fake news', or just didn't happen.

EltonJohn69

Watching trump at the governors conference
i think he just claimed he would have ran in and fought the parkland shooter with or without a gun..... brave Donald

Inquitus

EltonJohn69 wrote: »

Watching trump at the governors conference
i think he just claimed he would have ran in and fought the parkland shooter with or without a gun..... brave Donald

Cadet Bone Spurs has grown a spine in his dotage.....

Penn

pixelburp wrote: »

I'm frequently amazed at how little self awareness that man has; that he'd boast about how brave he'd be in a school shooting. I'll give the man one thing: he clearly, unashamedly believes his own hype and couldn't possibly be aware of the effect his words & deeds have on the greater world. How could he, when he's bragging about theoretical bravery - when history & YOuTube has shown him ducking behind his podium when a protestor rushed the stage during his 2016 campaign. But you know that even if challenged, that moment was 'fake news', or just didn't happen.

What are you talking about? I distinctly remember him kicking the protester through a huge glass window before an eagle swooped down and fixed his hair for him!

B0jangles

Penn wrote: »

What are you talking about? I distinctly remember him kicking the protester through a huge glass window before an eagle swooped down and fixed his hair for him!

That's not how the eagle tells it, and it has video to prove it!

But on a more serious note, every time Trump talks about the latest school shooting he demostrates his all-absorbing narcissism - it's all about what him and what he would have done, and his fantasies are getting more and more ridiculous each time.

david75

Amazing. This guys got serious balls to say this to the Donald.

‘A little less tweeting and a little more listening’

https://twitter.com/abcpolitics/status/968181033861447685