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Hap Scheme

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  • 12-01-2018 4:31pm
    #1
    Eireog1
    Registered Users Posts: 81 ✭✭


    Just a quick question regarding the Hap Scheme. Can the landlord received a top up of the rent from the Tenant or does the full amount have to be covered by the County Council? I have a property to rent and as far as I can tell my requested Rent is over the maximum value allowed by Haps in the area.

    Thanks for your help!


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    #2
    karenalot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 196 ✭✭karenalot


    Eireog1 wrote: »
    Just a quick question regarding the Hap Scheme. Can the landlord received a top up of the rent from the Tenant or does the full amount have to be covered by the County Council? I have a property to rent and as far as I can tell my requested Rent is over the maximum value allowed by Haps in the area.

    Thanks for your help!

    You can receive a top up of the difference directly from the tenant.

    Info here - http://hap.ie/tenants/payments/


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    #3
    Eireog1
    Registered Users Posts: 81 ✭✭Eireog1


    Thanks Karenalot


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    #4
    jim_bull
    Site Banned Posts: 19 ✭jim_bull


    just one a similar note

    with regard the long term leasing scheme operated by the local authorities , they promise to pay the house owner every month but if their tenant decided to stop paying , is it the case that the house owner then has to expect a break in rent ?

    just curious as the long term leasing scheme looks good otherwise


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    #5
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    jim_bull wrote: »
    just one a similar note

    with regard the long term leasing scheme operated by the local authorities , they promise to pay the house owner every month but if their tenant decided to stop paying , is it the case that the house owner then has to expect a break in rent ?

    just curious as the long term leasing scheme looks good otherwise

    If the tenant does not pay their portion of rent in full to the local authority/council- the rent is stopped in full by the local authority- the landlord does not get the LA portion of the rent.

    In a case like this- you then issue a 14 day notice of rent arrears- and it is up to the tenant to resolve the issue they have (with the local authority) if they wish to continue the tenancy.


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    #6
    karenalot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 196 ✭✭karenalot


    jim_bull wrote: »
    just one a similar note

    with regard the long term leasing scheme operated by the local authorities , they promise to pay the house owner every month but if their tenant decided to stop paying , is it the case that the house owner then has to expect a break in rent ?

    just curious as the long term leasing scheme looks good otherwise

    The long term leasing scheme is different from Hap in that the payments are guarenteed to the landlord. If a tenant doesn’t pay it won’t effect you and if the house is vacant for a period of time you will still be paid. However they only pay 80% of market rates.


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    #7
    karenalot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 196 ✭✭karenalot


    jim_bull wrote: »
    just one a similar note

    with regard the long term leasing scheme operated by the local authorities , they promise to pay the house owner every month but if their tenant decided to stop paying , is it the case that the house owner then has to expect a break in rent ?

    just curious as the long term leasing scheme looks good otherwise

    The long term leasing scheme is different from Hap in that the payments are guarenteed to the landlord. If a tenant doesn’t pay it won’t effect you and if the house is vacant for a period of time you will still be paid. However they only pay 80% of market rates.


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    #8
    lucast2007us
    Registered Users Posts: 801 ✭✭✭lucast2007us


    Hi guys would being on the hap scheme have a negative effect if we ever decided to go for a mortgage??


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    #9
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    lucast2007us wrote: »
    Hi guys would being on the hap scheme have a negative effect if we ever decided to go for a mortgage??

    No- its a housing welfare scheme- it is not a loan or a debt that has to be repaid by you, and it does not trigger an ICB search when you apply for it. Of critical importance- if you are eligible for HAP and want to get a mortgage at some stage- is not having debt- and being able to show a record of saving to support an application for a mortgage.

    However- keep in mind- if your income is of a level that you are eligible for HAP- your maximum mortgage under multiple rules is 3.5 times your gross income (and they don't count social welfare or other state receipts)- with a formula to come up with a reduction if you have any children.

    Sitting down with a mortgage advisor to get an idea of what is plausible- without actually putting in an application to prospective lenders- might give you a better idea of the lie of the land.


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    #10
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,300 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    jim_bull wrote: »
    just one a similar note

    with regard the long term leasing scheme operated by the local authorities , they promise to pay the house owner every month but if their tenant decided to stop paying , is it the case that the house owner then has to expect a break in rent ?

    just curious as the long term leasing scheme looks good otherwise
    The 10 year lease and the HAP lease are different. The 10 year lease; you get paid regardless. With HAP, if the tenant doesn't pay, the LL doesn't get paid, and it's the LL's problem to get rid of the tenant.


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    #11
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I wonder has anyone here got experience of the HAP scheme from a Landlord's perspective. My long-term tenants are asking about it. They are great tenants and are paying significantly less than market rent (it's a RPZ). Thank you in advance.


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    #12
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,300 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I wonder has anyone here got experience of the HAP scheme from a Landlord's perspective. My long-term tenants are asking about it. They are great tenants and are paying significantly less than market rent (it's a RPZ). Thank you in advance.
    Any of the LL's here will probably advise against it.

    If they're long term, would you consider the 10 year rental scheme? Sort of like HAP, except you get paid regardless.


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    #13
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I wonder has anyone here got experience of the HAP scheme from a Landlord's perspective. My long-term tenants are asking about it. They are great tenants and are paying significantly less than market rent (it's a RPZ). Thank you in advance.

    You're limited in your ability to increase the rent (by the 4% per 24 month and then 12 month formula)- so if they're already significantly below open market rent- they're going to remain below open market rent- come what may.

    Honestly- the best advice I could give you- is sell the property- and advise the local authority of your intention to do so- and offer them the opportunity to buy.

    Would your tenants qualify for any sort of assistance to purchase the property?

    Going HAP- when you're already well below open market rent- and are in an RPZ- is simply accepting you're going to get below market rent- forever after- and you're actively devaluing the property- as its market value for letting is signficantly below open market value. In addition- its of little/no interest to a first time buyer- as they can't access the FTB 'grant' to buy it.

    Its a bit of a no-win situation- the best course of action for you- is to sell- unless you have some particular attachment to the property.


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    #14
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,990 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    The_Conductor wrote: »

    Going HAP- when you're already well below open market rent- and are in an RPZ- is simply accepting you're going to get below market rent- forever after- and you're actively devaluing the property- as its market value for letting is signficantly below open market value. In addition- its of little/no interest to a first time buyer- as they can't access the FTB 'grant' to buy it.

    Its a bit of a no-win situation- the best course of action for you- is to sell- unless you have some particular attachment to the property.

    The council will also insist that you bring the house upto current building standards which will involve a lot of work* and due to being in a RPZ you can't increase the rent to recoup the cost.

    * This will be expensive and might require you to move out the tenants so more expenses for no return.


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    #15
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,990 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    It's more expensive than renting to non HAP tenants where the house is OK once it complies to regulations when it was built not when the council decides it should.


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    #16
    davo10
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,926 ✭✭✭davo10


    Op, if you are not in a position financially to bring the property up to the standards required for it to be eligible for HAP, inform the Council in writing, they will not approve it and the tenants will either have to continue to pay rent themselves or move out.


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    #17
    tvjunki
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭tvjunki


    Eireog1 wrote: »
    Just a quick question regarding the Hap Scheme. Can the landlord received a top up of the rent from the Tenant or does the full amount have to be covered by the County Council? I have a property to rent and as far as I can tell my requested Rent is over the maximum value allowed by Haps in the area.

    Thanks for your help!

    There is a limit hap will give but it depends on the persons income. If the house rental is really high above the levels then they will not get approval.

    In fingal if you are family with 2children your max is 1250 but can be increased if risk of being homeless by around 20%

    Before hap the tenant pays say 1250. They obviously can pay it as they have already. On the scheme now pay around 380 in the council post office account and the council pay the rest. Then you pay around 680 in tax if you have no expenses or mortgage interest. You are effectively supplementing their rental.

    If the council think the tenant does not have enough money to live on then hap will be refused. You then have to give notice.
    Make sure you have something in writing before you let them in as you are not guaranteed to get paid.

    You have to jump through hoops.
    Note .if the tenant does not pay their weekly amount you get nothing.
    Proof of ownership has to be given and not just a letter from a solicitor will do.
    Fill in the forms they give.
    Tax clearance for you.
    Wait to see if it is up to their spec and if not you could pay 5 or 15k just to get it to spec.
    You have to get deposit from the tenant and they don't always have it. Your not going to get the rent in advance unless you get it from the tenant.
    House insurance may go up or your bank may refuse the rental.
    You are still tied to the rpz levels. The tenant tells you that you will get more. If you increase above the 4% you will not get it and you have to pay it back.

    The list goes on.


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    #18
    tvjunki
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭tvjunki


    the_syco wrote: »
    The 10 year lease and the HAP lease are different. The 10 year lease; you get paid regardless. With HAP, if the tenant doesn't pay, the LL doesn't get paid, and it's the LL's problem to get rid of the tenant.

    Adding to your post the council will not speak to you if the tenant does not pay the council. You will not know if you are being paid until the last Thursday in the month.
    You have to give notice and evict your tenant under rtb rules.
    That can take years to evict a tenant. Also it is hard to attach rent arrears to tenants benefit/ wages. You have to go to small claims after exhausting rtb.


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    #19
    Little Miss Fun
    Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭Little Miss Fun


    As a landlord, my tenent wants to go on the HAP scheme. I've emailed the council to set up a meeting to discuss but no response to date. I want to arrange a pre-inspection re: building regs. The house was built circa 1960s and structurally sound with no damp or mould etc. Can you refuse the HAP scheme?


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    #20
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    Little Miss Fun wrote: »
    As a landlord, my tenent wants to go on the HAP scheme. I've emailed the council to set up a meeting to discuss but no response to date. I want to arrange a pre-inspection re: building regs. The house was built circa 1960s and structurally sound with no damp or mould etc. Can you refuse the HAP scheme?

    Sadly not. If the council find discrepancies that don’t meet minimum standards you may need to bring it up to meet their standards


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    #21
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,300 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Little Miss Fun wrote: »
    Can you refuse the HAP scheme?
    Although you can't refuse it, your house may not be eligible for it, of if your ducks are not in order (tax cert, etc).


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    #22
    tvjunki
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭tvjunki


    Little Miss Fun wrote: »
    As a landlord, my tenent wants to go on the HAP scheme. I've emailed the council to set up a meeting to discuss but no response to date. I want to arrange a pre-inspection re: building regs. The house was built circa 1960s and structurally sound with no damp or mould etc. Can you refuse the HAP scheme?


    I think it is a scheme that everyone thinks they will get but in reality they may not. If the council do not have the budget then you will not get paid. Maybe that is why you have had no response.

    More than likely your house is not up to the new building regs.
    The b e r level could be too low. Insulation in the house will need to be updated. Same with say heating or new boiler may be needed. Each room will need air vents. The list goes on. After you spending all this money you may end up with a lot less then you think.

    If you don't fill in the forms what can then tenant do? If they are on rent allowance already then that could be different.


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    #23
    Little Miss Fun
    Registered Users Posts: 20 ✭Little Miss Fun


    I am tax compliant . But the BER rating is low and no mechanical ventilation in the bathrooms. Does anyone know if the house does not meet current building regs and therfore is not eligible for HAP and it is not financially possible to upgrade- what happens then? I know they are rolling out HAP to replace RA etc. I have no issue with the tenant and they are currently on RA.


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    #24
    tvjunki
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭tvjunki


    Little Miss Fun wrote: »
    I am tax compliant . But the BER rating is low and no mechanical ventilation in the bathrooms. Does anyone know if the house does not meet current building regs and therfore is not eligible for HAP and it is not financially possible to upgrade- what happens then? I know they are rolling out HAP to replace RA etc. I have no issue with the tenant and they are currently on RA.

    You will have to install a mechanical vent on a separate switch to the bathroom light switch. This is mad as many tenants will not put the fan on if it is separate switch so mold will appear. Most bathrooms have vents as well as a window and this still may not be enough.

    Also an external vent for the extractor in the kitchen.

    More than likely you will be asked to improve the ber with insulation or maybe a new boiler. If you are in an area with storage heaters you may be asked to put in alternative heat source.

    Tell the tenant to stay on ra as along as they can as there hopefully be another scheme along.


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    #25
    the_syco
    Registered Users Posts: 37,300 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    Little Miss Fun wrote: »
    Can you refuse the HAP scheme?
    Little Miss Fun wrote: »
    I am tax compliant . But the BER rating is low and no mechanical ventilation in the bathrooms.
    From my understanding, your house will get inspected, but no-one seems to have an exact time; have seen one person say that they didn't get inspected until a year after they (the tenant) got HAP.

    So, you get approved for HAP, all goes well, and you get inspected. You fail the inspection, and I assume you are told to upgrade to keep getting HAP payments?

    Thus, you pay out a large sum of money to keep a tenant that is paying under market rate.


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    #26
    Fol20
    Registered Users Posts: 3,624 ✭✭✭Fol20


    Would you be legally obligated to do the excessive demands they put on it or can you decline?If I decline to do major upgrades when I don’t believe it’s necessary when the place is only about 10years old. Does it force the tenant to continue to pay me privately or what happens


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    #27
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    Fol20 wrote: »
    Would you be legally obligated to do the excessive demands they put on it or can you decline?If I decline to do major upgrades when I don’t believe it’s necessary when the place is only about 10years old. Does it force the tenant to continue to pay me privately or what happens

    Their HAP is stopped if/when the property fails the inspection.
    If they are incapable of paying their rent- you have to serve them a standard notice of rent arrears- and start on the long road to serve them notice to end the tenancy, on the ground of rent arrears etc.

    Unfortunately- it doesn't matter that the property is only 10 years old- and fully compliant with building regulations when it was constructed. The HAP inspection is akin to current building regs- and not the regs that were in place when the unit was originally constructed. Aka- a HAP compliant property- is required to be compliant with current building regs- which most certainly is not the case for a privately rented property.

    Its a bit silly really- I mean its great for a HAP tenant if their property is compliant with current regs- but it means that the pool of prospective property a HAP tenant can rent- is a tiny subset of the rental properties out there- to say nothing of the administrative work for a landlord- even if they were perfectly happy with the tenant..........

    All I can really suggest is try to assist the tenant stay on any other scheme than HAP- RAS or anything else- but not HAP- unless you're happy to do some serious remedial work to the property to get it through the inspection.

    Its a self defeating mess.


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    #28
    tvjunki
    Registered Users Posts: 602 ✭✭✭tvjunki


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    Their HAP is stopped if/when the property fails the inspection.
    If they are incapable of paying their rent- you have to serve them a standard notice of rent arrears- and start on the long road to serve them notice to end the tenancy, on the ground of rent arrears etc.

    Unfortunately- it doesn't matter that the property is only 10 years old- and fully compliant with building regulations when it was constructed. The HAP inspection is akin to current building regs- and not the regs that were in place when the unit was originally constructed. Aka- a HAP compliant property- is required to be compliant with current building regs- which most certainly is not the case for a privately rented property.

    Its a bit silly really- I mean its great for a HAP tenant if their property is compliant with current regs- but it means that the pool of prospective property a HAP tenant can rent- is a tiny subset of the rental properties out there- to say nothing of the administrative work for a landlord- even if they were perfectly happy with the tenant..........

    All I can really suggest is try to assist the tenant stay on any other scheme than HAP- RAS or anything else- but not HAP- unless you're happy to do some serious remedial work to the property to get it through the inspection.

    Its a self defeating mess.

    Agreed.
    Only new houses would be at the hap standard and if that was the case you would be getting a good market rate for it.

    I second The _Conductors post and keep the tenant on the existing scheme ras, ra than to move to Hap.
    The council do not care if you cannot afford to refurbish the house.

    There is the issue would you do the work if the tenant is in the house? They would claim compensation for not having a peaceful life or fall etc to get money out of you. No win for landlord but the tenant is happy.

    So you pay to improve the house, then compensation, then get low rent below the market rate. Does not add up financially.

    Some of the work will mean the tenant might have to move out and then you use substantial change.

    Once the tenant is in on hap and the house is not up to standard the council stop paying then you have to deal with rtb and that takes months. then you have to go to court to evict the tenant. Alot of money for little reward.

    Tenant stops paying their tiny share you get nothing!!
    Really private landlords should not be housing council tenants.


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