Should religious paraphernalia be removed from polling stations on the day of voting?

Oldtree

markodaly wrote: »

MAY effect only 1-2% of voters.

But isn't that the exact point of this. A possible 2% of voters is a possible 4% swing (in either direction depending on the iconography) and as a democracy it is incumbent on us to ensure that democracy is done, and not unduly influenced when we become aware of a non-impartial influence.

3,212,688 voters are registered in Ireland.

1,935,907 voted in the last referendum. 2% of those who voted is 38,418 voters that could be influenced, a potential swing of 77,436, a not insubstantial number of votes.

So to answer a previous posters question, it is unlikely that this issue impacted on the same sex marriage referendum.

9,114 votes was the miniscule difference in passing the 15th divorce amendment in 1995.

So even a much smaller % of an impact than that suggested by the study has the potential to impact on a close referendum.

The study is clear that there is an influence, that is not democratic. Let us study it further to learn more and make more of our democracy.

nozzferrahhtoo

markodaly wrote: »

Well it depends if Y is even an issue in the first place, as you say and admit you cannot even quantify the issue itself.

Again it has been shown to be an issue in studies like the one linked to in the OP. Which you are of course free to ignore. But reality does not change when you ignore it.

Also once again, you appear to want to dismiss the difference between not quantifying something EXACTLY and not quantifying it AT ALL. We can and have "quantified the issue itself" in studies like the one in the OP. We have not, and can not, quantify it specifically with regards any one particular vote.

Welcome to the real world, that is how MANY things works. For example when we track seasonal Flu patterns we can quantify GENERAL patterns on how the Flu disseminates and perpetuates. And we can use that data to work against it. But we can not quantify SPECIFIC values related to a specific strain in a specific geographic area. But thankfully no one in any actual influence or power thinks like you, and throws up their hands saying "well if we cant quantify it, lets do nothing".

markodaly wrote: »

Just because it's easy to do something, is not merit itself in doing it.

Then isn't it wonderful stuff indeed that no one is proposing doing something about it JUST because it is easy to do so? Pointing out that should be easy to deal with it was a side point. There have been plenty of other reasons offered as to why we might want to do it.

That it is easy is not the primary motivation at all, it is not even a motivation in the first place. It is just worth mentioning as an aside to all the other points.

markodaly wrote: »

Then again AI and the cranks that run it live in their own bubble where the world is always oppressing them.

Hardly. And in fact it is POSSIBLE that the influence on voters will go their way. It is posters on this thread, not AI themselves, making up vacuous assumptions that AI are only cranky about this because it might make the vote go against them. It could equally potentially make it go FOR them.

For example the Irish have a growing disquiet with the church. The Irish also seem to have a personality trait these days of reacting against being preached at or dictated to from on high. So for both of these reasons it is potentially true that religious iconography in the voting area will make people vote AGAINST what the church might want them to do.

So no, there is no evidence AI feel oppressed, or that they want the iconography removed because it might make people vote against their agenda(s). The simple fact is that AI believe in a secular and pluralist democracy, that endorses NEITHER religion or atheism in any way. And they believe, not least because of findings like the study in the OP, that a neutral voting environment is one step towards attaining that goal of equality and fairness.

And it seems that people who disagree with them got nutting to offer. Just name calling (like cranks and chancers) and agenda inventions from pure fantasy. And that is more than a little telling. Both about the strength of their points, and the intellect of their opposition, in equal measure.

OldMrBrennan83

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Bubbaclaus

Patww79 wrote: »

Do you really think it influences anyone? Stop wishing to be offended and put that energy into something useful.

Well studies have shown that it does, which is the very reason this thread even exists. Have you read the thread at all?

Also, nobody is offended here. I think you've read the wrong thread.

OldMrBrennan83

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nozzferrahhtoo

Patww79 wrote: »

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Well.... yes. The study shows that it does.

Patww79 wrote: »

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Hardly a crusade now is it? The Citizens Assembly asked for submissions when they were conducting a discussion on the conduct of referendums. So Atheist Ireland gave them one.

Giving a submission to people who have openly asked for a submission..... hardly the stuff of legend or crusade really now is it? Maybe next time I am in the pub and someone asks me if I want a drink, I better not say I want one in case I am suddenly making aggressive demands.

markodaly

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

And it seems that people who disagree with them got nutting to offer. Just name calling (like cranks and chancers) and agenda inventions from pure fantasy. And that is more than a little telling. Both about the strength of their points, and the intellect of their opposition, in equal measure.

Ah yes, the appeal to authority fallacy. When all else fails, when no actual evidence can be brought forward, we get the 'Trust us, we are smarter than you'

It is no wonder that AI hide in the shadows and don't engage with the public.

nozzferrahhtoo

Not sure what you are talking about any more there I am afraid. Not seeing anyone using an appeal to authority in anything I wrote, or anything I referred to.

Also SERIOUSLY have no idea what you mean they do not engage with the public. They do. LOTS. From information tables on a weekly basis in Dublin city center to a You Tube channel CHOCK full of media appearances. Not to mention their numerous submissions to public forums, their invitations to speak at international rights conferences, their recent teaming up with Muslim and Evangelical associations in Ireland, and they reaching out to schools on a weekly basis. Hell they are even producing a book at the moment to be included in school libraries all over the country, and they run periodic open meetings and AGMs that the public are welcomed to.

Where are you getting your information from? You appear to have gone full on fantasy-land with this post.

Chiparus

mikeym wrote: »

Who bloody cares

My parish priest does,
https://www.irishcatholic.com/election-official-removes-crucifix-from-parish-hall/


"Ms Elaine Coburn, the polling inspector who had vetted the pastoral centre the previous day to confirm its suitability as a polling centre told Fr Kane that the removal of the crucifix had been a “stupid” thing to do. “None of this should have happened,” she said.

While Fr Kane accepts the representative of the Sheriff’s Office had “realised he’d done wrong”, he said he was “apoplectic” at how the atmosphere around the referendum has been so poisoned, “with a strain of anti-Catholicism below the surface, that it has given rise to stupid actions like this”."

Oldtree

Interesting bits in the article:

“realised he’d done wrong”,

Not in he eyes of the law really, must have meant to say he committed a sin.

he said he was “apoplectic” at how the atmosphere around the referendum has been so poisoned, “with a strain of anti-Catholicism below the surface, that it has given rise to stupid actions like this”.

The stupid action has now been shown to have been a genuine non democratic influencing factor on some voters, so not such a stupid action after all.

A spokesman from the Dublin City’s Sheriff’s Office said that the Sheriff’s Office has “no jurisdiction” over décor and fittings in halls and schools requisitioned for electoral purposes.

Tis true, tis pity tis, tis true. One man's decor and fittings is another man's non democratic influential religious iconography.