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Cycling and THAT Late Late Show segment

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    #272
    brianomc
    Registered Users Posts: 684 ✭✭✭brianomc


    flatface wrote: »
    But you are not seeing my point. clearance depends on speed! 1.5 is recommended for > 50kmph. If you slow down you can pass with less clearance. Just like 2 cars passing on a small road will slow to judge the pass better, a car can slow then pass slowly the group / obstacle. If there is room for oncoming traffic there is room to pass slowly.

    I agree that the speed the car travels at makes a huge difference. But the MPDL proposal doesn't seem to take the speed of the car into account, just the speed limit of the area.

    https://www.finegael.ie/fine-gaels-new-law-will-protect-cyclists-irish-roads/

    So in a 60 or 80 kmph zone then 1.5m would still be legally needed.
    Common sense would say that cyclists wouldn't complain about a car doing 5kmph more than you and overtaking closer than 1.5m if you are cycling 4 abreast, but the law says 1.5m.


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    #273
    flatface
    Registered Users Posts: 719 ✭✭✭flatface


    brianomc wrote: »
    I agree that the speed the car travels at makes a huge difference. But the MPDL proposal doesn't seem to take the speed of the car into account, just the speed limit of the area.

    https://www.finegael.ie/fine-gaels-new-law-will-protect-cyclists-irish-roads/

    So in a 60 or 80 kmph zone then 1.5m would still be legally needed.
    Common sense would say that cyclists wouldn't complain about a car doing 5kmph more than you and overtaking closer than 1.5m if you are cycling 4 abreast, but the law says 1.5m.

    I stand very corrected! I thought it was zoned by driver speed rather than speed limit. Goes against my common sense.


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    #274
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 29,068 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    LennoxR wrote: »
    If you read the post in question, I was talking about the ease of overtaking cyclists more than two abreast as a cyclist.

    I think you were trying to make a different point, but in any case, all I'm saying is that from whatever perspective, you should not cycle more than two abreast except on closed roads.

    Yes indeed, I was talking about overtaking by car, not overtaking by bike.

    How often does it happen that you have a cyclist overtaking a bunch of cyclists? Usually, those bunches are going at a fair whack, so it would want to be a fairly keen cyclists out to overtake them. Does that really happen much?


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    #275
    LennoxR
    Registered Users Posts: 414 ✭✭LennoxR


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    Yes indeed, I was talking about overtaking by car, not overtaking by bike.

    How often does it happen that you have a cyclist overtaking a bunch of cyclists? Usually, those bunches are going at a fair whack, so it would want to be a fairly keen cyclists out to overtake them. Does that really happen much?

    It happens sometimes, there are also slow groups of cyclists. It happened to me.

    The point I was actually making though was that seeing groups of cyclists riding three or more abreast is actually very rare.


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    #276
    smacl
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,753 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    AndrewJ wrote:
    How often does it happen that you have a cyclist overtaking a bunch of cyclists? Usually, those bunches are going at a fair whack, so it would want to be a fairly keen cyclists out to overtake them. Does that really happen much?

    Happens all the time. You get a group at the tail end of spin moving that bit slower, a more social group having a natter, a group taking a slower pace on a long ride etc...


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    #277
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users Posts: 24,995 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    AndrewJRenko wrote: »
    ...How often does it happen that you have a cyclist overtaking a bunch of cyclists? Usually, those bunches are going at a fair whack, so it would want to be a fairly keen cyclists out to overtake them. Does that really happen much?
    It happens occasionally on our club touring group. There might be 12 of us on a 120k ride averaging 25-28 km/h and we'd be passed by a solo cyclist averaging 30-35km/h but probably only out for a 20/30k ride so able to push it more.


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    #278
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,163 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    brianomc wrote: »
    I agree that the speed the car travels at makes a huge difference. But the MPDL proposal doesn't seem to take the speed of the car into account, just the speed limit of the area.

    https://www.finegael.ie/fine-gaels-new-law-will-protect-cyclists-irish-roads/

    So in a 60 or 80 kmph zone then 1.5m would still be legally needed.
    Common sense would say that cyclists wouldn't complain about a car doing 5kmph more than you and overtaking closer than 1.5m if you are cycling 4 abreast, but the law says 1.5m.

    Id have an issue with someone overtaking me at less than 1.5M, irrespective of the relative speed differential.

    If Im cycling at 25 and a car is doing 30, Im still going to get run over by a car travelling at 30 if I happen to fall off or get hit during the over take.
    No thanks.

    Feck it, if Im doing 5 and a car is doing 10, I still dont want them close to me in case they drive over my head.

    If you cant leave 1.5M then you cant overtake.


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    #279
    rubadub
    Registered Users Posts: 32,381 ✭✭✭✭rubadub


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Id have an issue with someone overtaking me at less than 1.5M, irrespective of the relative speed differential.
    the proposed law will be 1m if under 50km/h

    https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/bill/2017/22/eng@initiated/b2217d-p-c-sent.pdf
    (a) if the applicable speed limit is not more than 50 kilometres per hour a lateral
    distance from the pedal bicycle of at least 1 metre, or
    (b) if the applicable speed limit is more than 50 kilometres per hour a lateral distance
    from the pedal bicycle of at least 1.5 metres.


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    #280
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,163 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    rubadub wrote: »
    the proposed law will be 1m if under 50km/h

    https://data.oireachtas.ie/ie/oireachtas/bill/2017/22/eng@initiated/b2217d-p-c-sent.pdf

    I think thats mental.

    If you were stopped on the side of the road with your kids, would you be happy with a car passing you at 45kmh at only 1M?
    I sure as hell wouldnt.


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    #281
    DKmac
    Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭DKmac


    GreeBo wrote: »
    I think thats mental.

    If you were stopped on the side of the road with your kids, would you be happy with a car passing you at 45kmh at only 1M?
    I sure as hell wouldnt.

    If there is no hard-shoulder you shouldn't really be stopped at the side of the road or on the road anyway.


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    #282
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,163 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    DKmac wrote: »
    If there is no hard-shoulder you shouldn't really be stopped at the side of the road or on the road anyway.

    Thats kinda irrelevant to the point tbf.


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    #283
    DKmac
    Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭DKmac


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Thats kinda irrelevant to the point tbf.

    Well its not really. You wouldn't expect a car to stop where it's not viable. Similarly you shouldn't be stopped in a place where there isn't the space to pass safely.

    In reality the law will only act as a deterrent and there will be very few actual convictions. Its largely dependent on Garda presence at the scene to prove guilt. People will be presenting their own videos to Gardaí but I doubt Go-pro footage will hold much water in court and very little would actually be done about it.


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    #284
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,248 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    DKmac wrote: »
    If there is no hard-shoulder you shouldn't really be stopped at the side of the road or on the road anyway.

    Why? is it a private road? there are lots of reasons why people might have to stop (e.g. Punctures, mechanical faults etc.). As cyclists, we usually advise people to stop and move off the road into a driveway or wherever, but this is not always possible.


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    #285
    DKmac
    Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭DKmac


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    Why? is it a private road? there are lots of reasons why people might have to stop (e.g. Punctures, mechanical faults etc.). As cyclists, we usually advise people to stop and move off the road into a driveway or wherever, but this is not always possible.

    I agree with the above you should be making efforts to get off the road if you don't feel its safe and that's a personal judgement. The same applies to all road users drivers, walkers, cyclists, horses whatever.

    Personally I think 1m is fine for 50kmph. This would generally apply only to built up areas anyway where 1.5m isn't realistic and if you need to stop there more than likely is somewhere close by in these areas where you could get off the road if you don't feel safe enough at a metre.

    For some people 1m isn't enough for some 1m is more than enough but the law has to draw a limit somewhere otherwise enforcement which is already going to be very difficult becomes a farce.


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    #286
    AndrewJRenko
    Registered Users Posts: 29,068 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    DKmac wrote: »
    but I doubt Go-pro footage will hold much water in court and very little would actually be done about it.
    Why not? I've had fines and penalty points issued from helmetcam footage in the past? Several US police forces use an electronic device to judge distance -maybe AGS will get one or two of those?


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    #287
    Macy0161
    Registered Users Posts: 9,450 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    DKmac wrote: »
    In reality the law will only act as a deterrent and there will be very few actual convictions. Its largely dependent on Garda presence at the scene to prove guilt. People will be presenting their own videos to Gardaí but I doubt Go-pro footage will hold much water in court and very little would actually be done about it.
    I really don't see this being an issue/ a reason to delay. The cases where a cyclist is going to go to the trouble to submit are not going to be borderline cases, they're going to be the clear cut cases!


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    #288
    DKmac
    Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭DKmac


    Macy0161 wrote: »
    I really don't see this being an issue/ a reason to delay. The cases where a cyclist is going to go to the trouble to submit are not going to be borderline cases, they're going to be the clear cut cases!

    I don't think the law should be delayed at all, it should be brought in as soon as possible. I'm only pointing out that there is a very obvious difficulty in proving guilt where there isn't a Garda presence which is the vast majority of the time. Most cyclists don't carry action-cams and the onus shouldn't be on cyclists to become an unofficial Traffic Corp.
    The best outcome from this is that it makes drivers consider the cyclist.


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    #289
    Chiparus
    Registered Users Posts: 2,270 ✭✭✭Chiparus


    Perhaps the Gardai will operate this themselves , like they do in the UK

    http://road.cc/content/news/204164-west-midlands-police-use-cycling-officer-target-close-passing-motorists


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    #290
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,163 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    DKmac wrote: »
    Well its not really. You wouldn't expect a car to stop where it's not viable. Similarly you shouldn't be stopped in a place where there isn't the space to pass safely.

    In reality the law will only act as a deterrent and there will be very few actual convictions. Its largely dependent on Garda presence at the scene to prove guilt. People will be presenting their own videos to Gardaí but I doubt Go-pro footage will hold much water in court and very little would actually be done about it.

    It is as my point was regarding the relative speed.
    If you are unhappy with the stopped analogy, how about someone walking at 2kmh being overtaken at 1M by a car doing 52kmh?

    Honeslty, it doesnt matter why or how the person is stopped or moving slowly on the side of the road, the fact is they are there and someone is overtaking them at 50km/h less than 3 feet away from them. A truck or bus doing this could conceivably pull you out into the road just in time to get hit by a following car.

    Its not relevant when its a car overtaking another car as cars, unlike cyclists, pedestrians, etc dont wobble, move suddenly or get noticeably influenced by the draft from passing vehicles.


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    #291
    DKmac
    Registered Users Posts: 119 ✭✭DKmac


    GreeBo wrote: »
    It is as my point was regarding the relative speed.
    If you are unhappy with the stopped analogy, how about someone walking at 2kmh being overtaken at 1M by a car doing 52kmh?
    .

    I'd be pretty sure this happens everyday. You could be walking/standing on a footpath or waiting to cross a road and a car drive-by on the road 3ft away at 50kmph. Do you feel safe on a footpath??
    1 metre is realistic in 50kmph zones but in reality there will be traffic pinch points especially in 50kmph zones where 1 metre isn't viable and common sense needs to be enforced by both driver and cyclist. The legislation provides for more consideration to be taken on the part of drivers but isn't going to be enforceable where infrastructure dictates otherwise and drivers should not be punished for poor infrastructure.


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    #292
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,248 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    DKmac wrote: »
    I'd be pretty sure this happens everyday. You could be walking/standing on a footpath or waiting to cross a road and a car drive-by on the road 3ft away at 50kmph. Do you feel safe on a footpath??
    1 metre is realistic in 50kmph zones but in reality there will be traffic pinch points especially in 50kmph zones where 1 metre isn't viable and common sense needs to be enforced by both driver and cyclist. The legislation provides for more consideration to be taken on the part of drivers but isn't going to be enforceable where infrastructure dictates otherwise and drivers should not be punished for poor infrastructure.

    I agree with this statement regarding pinch points. Common sense dictates that the cyclist should move out and "take the lane" to ensure cars cannot pass until the cyclist is past the pinch point. the problem is....some motorists don't see it that way.


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    #293
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,163 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    I agree with this statement regarding pinch points. Common sense dictates that the cyclist should move out and "take the lane" to ensure cars cannot pass until the cyclist is past the pinch point. the problem is....some motorists don't see it that way.

    Or the driver just bloody waits until after the point!


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    #294
    07Lapierre
    Registered Users Posts: 8,248 ✭✭✭07Lapierre


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Or the driver just bloody waits until after the point!

    They never do!

    edit: well, unless the driver is also a cyclist! ;)


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    #295
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,768 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    07Lapierre wrote: »
    Why? is it a private road? there are lots of reasons why people might have to stop (e.g. Punctures, mechanical faults etc.). As cyclists, we usually advise people to stop and move off the road into a driveway or wherever, but this is not always possible.

    I was going along Benildus Avenue, heading towards the Kilmacud Luas stop, when a length of wire wrapped itself around the rear sprocket of the bakfiets. My hands were too cold to get it out, and for a little while I was stuck at the side of the road while I chopped at the wire with a small Swiss Army knife scissors. Then I got to the point where I could at least wheel the bike but I was walking along the side of the road with two kids in the bakfiets for about seven minutes until I could find a dipped kerb so I could get off the road.

    No particular point, except I very recently did get stuck at the side of the road for about ten minutes or more with cars streaming past me, and there wasn't much I could do about it.


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    #296
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,163 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    tomasrojo wrote: »

    No particular point, except I very recently did get stuck at the side of the road for about ten minutes or more with cars streaming past me, and there wasn't much I could do about it.

    Sorry to hear that, bit I'm guessing you didn't feel particularly comfortable while you were there? (Other than the cold!)


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    #297
    Annie get your Run
    Registered Users Posts: 2,831 ✭✭✭Annie get your Run


    DKmac wrote: »
    I'd be pretty sure this happens everyday. You could be walking/standing on a footpath or waiting to cross a road and a car drive-by on the road 3ft away at 50kmph. Do you feel safe on a footpath??
    1 metre is realistic in 50kmph zones but in reality there will be traffic pinch points especially in 50kmph zones where 1 metre isn't viable and common sense needs to be enforced by driver . The legislation provides for more consideration to be taken on the part of drivers but isn't going to be enforceable where infrastructure dictates otherwise and drivers should not be punished for poor infrastructure.

    The answer here is simple, driver waits until they can give 1m or 1.5m depending on circumstances. What is it abut waiting that's so hard for drivers to understand? They will squeeze past the most ridiculous of situations to pass you, often when the lights ahead are clearly red. It's absolutely astounding. If it's not safe to pass then don't pass!!!!!!!!


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    #298
    tomasrojo
    Registered Users Posts: 11,768 ✭✭✭✭tomasrojo


    GreeBo wrote: »
    Sorry to hear that, bit I'm guessing you didn't feel particularly comfortable while you were there? (Other than the cold!)

    No, it was pretty bad for the bit where I couldn't even wheel the bike, because we were just past the corner. Terrible place to "park". I had two rear lights on the bakfiets though, and wrist lights on me, so I was probably pretty visible, except I had to crouch down to get the wire out, and also I had to simultaneously remember not to block the rear lights on the bike.


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    #299
    Moflojo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,006 ✭✭✭Moflojo


    RTE has begun to respond to people who've written complaints about the Late Late Show: (Not my Twitter profile)

    https://twitter.com/PercyAutomatic/status/954031656591077376


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    #300
    koutoubia
    Registered Users Posts: 2,275 ✭✭✭koutoubia


    I got my reply.
    Up to my knackers in work so haven't got time to go into detail.


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    #301
    Annie get your Run
    Registered Users Posts: 2,831 ✭✭✭Annie get your Run


    koutoubia wrote: »
    I got my reply.
    Up to my knackers in work so haven't got time to go into detail.

    Me too, looks like they sent the same email to everyone. My 'complaint' was quite detailed and personal, they didn't acknowledge any of the personal stuff in it. In fact I doubt they even read it :rolleyes:


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