Cycling and THAT Late Late Show segment

koutoubia

OK as it seems that its going to be a generic reply to the complaints here it is:

"Thank you for your email in relation to the Late Late Show of 12th January 2018, which has been passed to me for reply.



The item to which you refer took place in part three of the show and was a comedic and light hearted look at things the panellists wanted to “bin” for the new year. Items to be binned included Ryan Tubridy’s enthusiasm for children and toys on the Toy Show as well as raisins which the panellist described as “devil’s droppings”



It was in this context that one of the panellists, Maura Derrane wished to put “arrogant cyclists” in the bin. Her primary concern as she said was “ I like cycling but there is one thing that really bothers me – three or four cyclists abreast on a country road.”



To be clear, Ms Derrane several times reiterated (and I quote) “Not cyclists, I like cyclists, don’t get me wrong. It’s arrogant cyclists.. ”



At no point did Ms Derrane or any of the other contributors condemn all cyclists or urge the “binning” of cycling itself. The item was not a serious discussion on road use or traffic safety, nor was it in any way meant to reflect a position by RTÉ, Ms. Derrane or The Late Late Show on the issue of general cycling safety.



As you are aware the Late Late Show has a range of topics, discussions, guests and items on every week, from the very serious to the comedic and the panel discussion to which you refer was aimed firmly in the light entertainment category. In this case, we obviously failed to entertain you, and for that I apologise, but it certainly was not our intention to offend or demonise all cyclists, but rather to put a range of provocative and entertaining topics to the panel for them to discuss.



RTÉ has a long history of working closely with the Road Safety Authority and other bodies to improve road safety for all users and takes its public service responsibilities in this regard very seriously. The item in question on the Late Late Show was not of that type.



Thank you for watching and for taking the time to write to us with your views. They are appreciated and valued.



If any member of the public is of the opinion that a programme or segment of a programme broadcast on RTÉ has breached a provision of Section 39(1)(a), (b), (d) or (e) of the Broadcasting Act 2009 or failed to comply with a provision of the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland Codes and is not satisfied with RTɒs response they are entitled to make a complaint to the BAI. Information on codes and on the complaints procedure can be found on the BAI website at http://www.bai.ie/en/viewers-listeners/complaints/.



Yours,

Series Producer

The Late Late Show"






It seems that RTE and the producer just dont get it.

'its comedy deal with it'

They only seem to be concerned that I wasnt entertained.

No mention of being compared to farm animals on a road.

Again they just dont seem to get it!

letape

I got the same annoying response. I replied to it but clearly my response will not be read. Definitely intend on raising a complaint with the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland.

koutoubia

koutoubia wrote: »

.

No mention of being compared to farm animals on a road.

Again they just dont seem to get it!

That was just a bizarre, ridiculous comment, and he was rightly told to shush at the time. Are you really offended by some eejit comparing you to a farm animal?

CramCycle

Basil3 wrote: »

That was just a bizarre, ridiculous comment, and he was rightly told to shush at the time. Are you really offended by some eejit comparing you to a farm animal?

To be fair it would make marshaling races easier as we could technically stop traffic. Always look on the bright side

AndrewJRenko

Basil3 wrote: »

That was just a bizarre, ridiculous comment, and he was rightly told to shush at the time. Are you really offended by some eejit comparing you to a farm animal?

So if somebody compared gay people to animals, or some Jewish people to animals, or some black people to animals, would it be OK to be offended then?

koutoubia

Basil3 wrote:

That was just a bizarre, ridiculous comment, and he was rightly told to shush at the time. Are you really offended by some eejit comparing you to a farm animal?

Frankly Yes!

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So if somebody compared gay people to animals, or some Jewish people to animals, or some black people to animals, would it be OK to be offended then?

Do you wonder why the average non-cycling person struggles to warm to the plight of cyclists? Because arguments like the one above make you look a bit silly.

AndrewJRenko

Basil3 wrote: »

Do you wonder why the average non-cycling person struggles to warm to the plight of cyclists? Because arguments like the one above make you look a bit silly.

I don't suppose you would like to answer the question, by any chance?

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

I don't suppose you would like to answer the question, by any chance?

That would be encouraging your behaviour.

Give me comparisons to subsets of traffic groups, and I'll think about it.

AndrewJRenko

Basil3 wrote: »

That would be encouraging your behaviour.

Give me comparisons to subsets of traffic groups, and I'll think about it.

Why would you think that hate speech is limited to traffic groups?

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Why would you think that hate speech is limited to traffic groups?

Can you really not see why making arguments like you are is making things harder for cyclists? The average person is just going to think you're completely irrational.

Chiparus

Basil3 wrote: »

That would be encouraging your behaviour.

Give me comparisons to subsets of traffic groups, and I'll think about it.

A few years ago a journo suggested placing piano wire acress cycle tracks -

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/whats-smug-and-deserves-to-be-decapitated-5k877kjgfpk

AndrewJRenko

Basil3 wrote: »

Can you really not see why making arguments like you are is making things harder for cyclists? The average person is just going to think you're completely irrational.

Fortunately, I gave up worrying about what 'the average person' thinks about all aspects of my life a long time ago.

So let's just look at the facts. 15 cyclists were killed by motorists last year. Hate speech against other vulnerable groups is illegal, but hate speech against cyclists is being promoted here, by the State-owned TV station on their flagship show.

It's not a huge leap to jump from hate speech to actual violence, as we've seen in many other domains. In Australia, there has been one cyclist killed by a person who had previously expressed hate speech online.

Do you think there is the vaguest possibility that the Late Late would, just for example, throw black taxi drivers 'in the bin' because they never know their way around Dublin and their English is very poor and they're just so annoying anyway?

Tell me why you think it's OK to throw cyclists in the bin, but not other vulnerable groups?

Chiparus

Basil3 wrote: »

That was just a bizarre, ridiculous comment, and he was rightly told to shush at the time. Are you really offended by some eejit comparing you to a farm animal?

Would you call a guard a pig to his face?

Unfortunately there are some people out there who dont like cyclists and use their motor vehicles to "teach the cyclists a lesson" for causing them to slow.

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Fortunately, I gave up worrying about what 'the average person' thinks about all aspects of my life a long time ago.

So let's just look at the facts. 15 cyclists were killed by motorists last year. Hate speech against other vulnerable groups is illegal, but hate speech against cyclists is being promoted here, by the State-owned TV station on their flagship show.

It's not a huge leap to jump from hate speech to actual violence, as we've seen in many other domains. In Australia, there has been one cyclist killed by a person who had previously expressed hate speech online.

Do you think there is the vaguest possibility that the Late Late would, just for example, throw black taxi drivers 'in the bin' because they never know their way around Dublin and their English is very poor and they're just so annoying anyway?

Tell me why you think it's OK to throw cyclists in the bin, but not other vulnerable groups?

You're trying to move the goalposts. Weren't we talking about a specific comment about farm animals? My point is that by being irrational and unbalanced in your arguments, you're doing more harm than good.

You should care about what the 'average person' thinks, because ultimately if the 'average person' views cyclists in a positive light, this can only be a good thing.

Chiparus

Chiparus wrote: »

A few years ago a journo suggested placing piano wire acress cycle tracks -

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/whats-smug-and-deserves-to-be-decapitated-5k877kjgfpk

It's not really relevant to the point being discussed, and I'm not going to read it.....but I'm going to assume the guy is an eejit.

Chiparus

Chiparus wrote: »

Would you call a guard a pig to his face?

Come on, this is ridiculous now.

AndrewJRenko

Basil3 wrote: »

You're trying to move the goalposts. Weren't we talking about a specific comment about farm animals? My point is that by being irrational and unbalanced in your arguments, you're doing more harm than good.
.

Do you think there is the vaguest possibility that the Late Late would, just for example, throw black taxi drivers 'in the bin' because they never know their way around Dublin and their English is very poor and they're just so annoying anyway?

Basil3 wrote: »

It's not really relevant to the point being discussed, and I'm not going to read it.....but I'm going to assume the guy is an eejit.

He's a very well established political commentator in the UK, and former Tory MP. Roughly equivalent to Ivan Yates coming out and suggesting that a particular group of people need to be decapitated.

And it appears in a mainstream broadsheet newspaper.

Basil3 wrote: »

You should care about what the 'average person' thinks, because ultimately if the 'average person' views cyclists in a positive light, this can only be a good thing.

Presumably, you would give the same advice to Jews who are experiencing anti-Semitism? Be nice, keep people on your side - and whatever you do, don't stand up and call hate speech what it actually is - right?

AndrewJRenko

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

Do you think there is the vaguest possibility that the Late Late would, just for example, throw black taxi drivers 'in the bin' because they never know their way around Dublin and their English is very poor and they're just so annoying anyway?

Presumably, you would give the same advice to Jews who are experiencing anti-Semitism? Be nice, keep people on your side - and whatever you do, don't stand up and call hate speech what it actually is - right?

I have no words. Sorry, I just feel like I'm encouraging you now....so I'm out.

Tombo2001

Basil3 wrote: »

I have no words. Sorry, I just feel like I'm encouraging you now....so I'm out.

The guy has given you completely rational reasonable anologies in other parts of of society for the types of treatment cyclists are receiving, and instead of countering these points, you just throw your hands up in the air with this 'I can't deal with this person, they arent making sense' reaction. No that's not a reasonable response. The fact is, unless you are out on a bike every day and putting up with this abuse then you don't know what he is talking about. That doesn't make him wrong.

meeeeh

AndrewJRenko wrote: »

So if somebody compared gay people to animals, or some Jewish people to animals, or some black people to animals, would it be OK to be offended then?

When cyclist will have a history of discrimination, holocaust, slavery then start with this nonsense but otherwise cop on. You are not a victim of historical persecution, you are middle age, financially comfortable white man. You wonder why people roll their eyes when you think systemic discrimination is the same as someone not being nice to you on tv once.

Tombo2001

Tombo2001 wrote: »

The guy has given you completely rational reasonable anologies in other parts of of society for the types of treatment cyclists are receiving, and instead of countering these points, you just throw your hands up in the air with this 'I can't deal with this person, they arent making sense' reaction. No that's not a reasonable response. The fact is, unless you are out on a bike every day and putting up with this abuse then you don't know what he is talking about. That doesn't make him wrong.

Why would I want to counter his points? I just want to discuss the point we were discussing, not go off on a tangent. I'm not saying he's wrong, I'm saying that he's not keeping on topic. If every discussion about any aspect of anything anyone says about cyclists or cycling is going to go down the road of hate speeches, anti-semitism or racism, then it's going to be a long, painful process improving things for cyclists.

I cycled regularly for a good stretch of my time in Dublin, but no longer can. I came across some idiot drivers, but I also come across idiot drivers if I'm on my motorbike or in my car. I was never hurled abuse, which isn't to say it doesn't happen.

Weepsie

meeeeh wrote: »

When cyclist will have a history of discrimination, holocaust, slavery then start with this nonsense but otherwise cop on. You are not a victim of historical persecution, you are middle age, financially comfortable white man. You wonder why people roll their eyes when you think systemic discrimination is the same as someone not being nice to you on tv once.

I am personally very uncomfortable with the comparisons to such things, but there is, or has been a seemingly concerted media campaign to smear cyclists as some sort of societal pariah that must be discounted at all costs. And for what?

For delaying people a couple of minutes? For being able to commute in cities quicker, or at least in a more efficient way? For being healthy?

Weepsie

Basil3 wrote: »

I cycled regularly for a good stretch of my time in Dublin, but no longer can. I came across some idiot drivers, but I also come across idiot drivers if I'm on my motorbike or in my car. I was never hurled abuse, which isn't to say it doesn't happen.

As a matter of interest, when or how long ago did you stop cycling in Dublin?

I ask because it's over capacity for car traffic as far as I'm concerned. Far too many househould where there are 2-4 cars. Evein up until maybe 15-20 years ago 1 car per household would be the norm, maybe 1 wouldn't be on the road as much. Now there are more per household, far more single occupant vehicles, all vying for the same space of which there is no more.

Also the blasé attitude to using mobile phones is not something that was as big a problem even only a couple of years ago.

Cycling itself is safe, there are too many unsafe road users though and media segments like this one and the nonsense spouted in the Indo, Times, Journal and sites like here fan the flames enough to make some people think it's acceptable to threaten someone because they choose to be on a bike.

Tombo2001

Weepsie wrote: »

I am personally very uncomfortable with the comparisons to such things, but there is, or has been a seemingly concerted media campaign to smear cyclists as some sort of societal pariah that must be discounted at all costs. And for what?

For delaying people a couple of minutes? For being able to commute in cities quicker, or at least in a more efficient way? For being healthy?

The point is absolutely not that cyclists are in the same marginalized position as Jews or black people or travelers. It would be daft to suggest this, and it's a complete straw man to make out that this is the argument cyclists are making. The point is that hate speech associated with prejudice takes similar forms, where it occurs. For example, victim blaming. It's there own fault because they don't try hard enough to appease the average person, as above. They bring it on themselves with their behavior rather. Other forms of hate speech associated with societal prejudice. Comparing people to animals. Other forms of hate speech...saying that the mocking and jeering is only having a laygh

bilbot79

I think non-cyclists just see us with their motorists hat on and find it difficult to see things from a cyclists perspective. In their minds they probably can't differentiate between 'cyclists killed on roads this year', 'pedestrians killed on road this year', etc.

That level of awareness is definitely something that needs worked on however, I do think the reaction from the cycling world to some statements in an entertainment scenario is too exaggerated. It would different if these comments were made by the department for transport or something like that but to think that you can gag the population from saying 'cyclists annoy me' is naive at best and I don't think it's an assault on cyclists either. If it came from government yes but from the late late no.

Go easy on me folks, it's important to allow people to express their opinions.

meeeeh

Weepsie wrote: »

I am personally very uncomfortable with the comparisons to such things, but there is, or has been a seemingly concerted media campaign to smear cyclists as some sort of societal pariah that must be discounted at all costs. And for what?

For delaying people a couple of minutes? For being able to commute in cities quicker, or at least in a more efficient way? For being healthy?

This is hyperbole again. Irish roads are not great for cycling or walking and certain disregard for a lot of the rules of the road, where to park, how and where to walk, drive and cycle it makes them worse. I have no doubt that part of solution is in redesigning roads but a lot has to be changed in the attitude of road users and that includes cyclists. Otherwise the mud slinging will continue and nothing will change.

Btw I come from a country with much much better cycling infrastructure but also with regional roads where tractors or cyclist are not allowed because they are deemed too slow. It saves a lot of agro.

Weepsie

Weepsie wrote: »

As a matter of interest, when or how long ago did you stop cycling in Dublin?

I ask because it's over capacity for car traffic as far as I'm concerned. Far too many househould where there are 2-4 cars. Evein up until maybe 15-20 years ago 1 car per household would be the norm, maybe 1 wouldn't be on the road as much. Now there are more per household, far more single occupant vehicles, all vying for the same space of which there is no more.

Also the blasé attitude to using mobile phones is not something that was as big a problem even only a couple of years ago.

Cycling itself is safe, there are too many unsafe road users though and media segments like this one and the nonsense spouted in the Indo, Times, Journal and sites like here fan the flames enough to make some people think it's acceptable to threaten someone because they choose to be on a bike.

Realistically I stopped in late 2011, when I came off on black ice in Phoenix Park and broke my collarbone. I also did the bulk of my commuting outside peak hours (usually leaving the house between 5:30 and 6am), and I didn't go through the city centre.

I definitely agree re mobile phones. It would be fairly regular for me to knock on the window of motorists when I'm on my motorbike and see people sitting there watching something on their phones, not realising that lights have gone green and all traffic in front of them have moved off.

Weepsie

meeeeh wrote: »

This is hyperbole again. Irish roads are not great for cycling or walking and certain disregard for a lot of the rules of the road, where to park, how and where to walk, drive and cycle it makes them worse. I

I mostly disagree with this, except for the quality of the surfacing and maintenance of many roads is laughable. Most here would cycle on R roads, L Roads backroads etc. Where they have no other option N roads are used.

A person on a bike is traffic. A person in a car, truck etc needs to recognise this and treat as such and perform whatever overtake maneuver the wish in a safe manner when the way is clear.

Too many people blame poor or narrow roads for their bad driving

magicbastarder

comments likening cyclists to animals would be all well and good if they were made in a context where all other road users were similarly denigrated for ****s'n'giggles. but i would be curious to find anyone who genuinely believes that irish media in general is an equal opportunities employer on that front - at a guess, it's cyclists, taxi drivers, and white van men who take the most flak.

so is it a surprise that cyclists object to such language? when if you turn on the radio, the chances of hearing a debate about road safety where blame is being apportioned, is probably 50% likely to be about cyclists and cycling*; and talking heads on the radio are far better known for stupid anti-cycling sentiment than they are for pro-cycling sentiment (matt cooper being an exception). why aren't motorists in general the whipping boy in such debates?

and RTE, spare me the humour defence - that sort of humour really only works when it's the minority having a pop at the majority.

though to be fair, the biggest sin there was that it wasn't even funny**

*citation required
**i did not watch it but can make this declaration confidently.