Liverpool v Man City - SS 4pm on Sunday 14th January 2018

jbt123

the whole year inn wrote: »

Firmino is no where near the level of Real Madrid,as an out an out striker (which he isnt) he is poor he has 10 goals this season for Liverpool.He is doing an ok job and has some nice strikes but he not even good enough to lead the line at Liverpool if they want to win trophies.
Vardy scored one less goal than him and even Rooney scored the same and Firmino only missed one game.
Clearly hes better than them two examples but hes nothing special either.

He is without question the most important player Liverpool have. His doggedness and energy is instrumental to the high energy and quick aggressive press that Klopp has instilled in the offence.

Real would only to be delighted to have him in their squad/team. There is no doubt about that. A fantastic player and one who is fully aware that it is a team game and plays his role in that superbly.

Continue with the fun, Bobby.

fyfe79

the whole year inn wrote: »

Firmino is no where near the level of Real Madrid,as an out an out striker (which he isnt) he is poor he has 10 goals this season for Liverpool.He is doing an ok job and has some nice strikes but he not even good enough to lead the line at Liverpool if they want to win trophies.
Vardy scored one less goal than him and even Rooney scored the same and Firmino only missed one game.
Clearly hes better than them two examples but hes nothing special either.

Worst post ever

Spot on, young man!

the whole year inn

fyfe79 wrote: »

Worst post ever

Spot on, young man!

Yea it is, for all his high engry it boils down to he doesn't score enough.Sure off Liverpool go and enjoy playing for 4th but if they had a better striker where would Liverpool be.

ThunbergsAreGo

the whole year inn wrote: »

Only because there is no other striker better than him in the squad,10 goals and we are well into half way into the season.Salah is clearly Liverpool best player and big clubs will be coming for him,but do you honestly think top tier clubs higher than Liverpool would be interested in Firmino.He is at his level and even at that Liverpool should be doing better.

Just shows how much football has been skewed

There was a time 1 in 2 was a great return got a centre forward

Your opinion on Firmino makes me think you don't watch Liverpool that often

Hadn't thought about it before but with a prime level Ronaldo and Bale he'd be brilliant

POKERKING

As a city fan i would take firmino over Aguero currently, not saying hes a better player but he would suit our system much better than Aguero. Its similar to Jesus and why he keeps aguero out of the team. When aguero isnt scoring he doesnt offer a lot and how the team is set up is crucial for a firmino/jesus type striker.

TitianGerm

POKERKING wrote: »

As a city fan i would take firmino over Aguero currently, not saying hes a better player but he would suit our system much better than Aguero. Its similar to Jesus and why he keeps aguero out of the team. When aguero isnt scoring he doesnt offer a lot and how the team is set up is crucial for a firmino/jesus type striker.

Keep your paws off he's ours :pac:

mada999

Berserker wrote: »

On a side note, speaks volumes about the best league in the world, with no easy games that this City team has 20 wins and 2 draws so far this season. They are a good side, as are Liverpool but neither are up to the level of Barca or a top tier European side for me.

i guess we will see in the CL soon....:pac:
I think a PL team will be in the final

the whole year inn

naughtb4 wrote: »

Just shows how much football has been skewed

There was a time 1 in 2 was a great return got a centre forward

Your opinion on Firmino makes me think you don't watch Liverpool that often

Hadn't thought about it before but with a prime level Ronaldo and Bale he'd be brilliant

I watch alot of football about 5 or 6 games (all PL)at the weekend and couple games a night during other cups,and watched Liverpool a decent amount this season.I am not saying hes a bad player far from it,but for all the extra work he does it doesn't make up for not scoring.Strikers need to score its a simple metric and he doesn't fulfill it.He does fit into Klopps work ethic and he ticks alot of boxes but comes up short.

Yawns

the whole year inn wrote: »

I watch alot of football about 5 or 6 games (all PL)at the weekend and couple games a night during other cups,and watched Liverpool a decent amount this season.I am not saying hes a bad player far from it,but for all the extra work he does it doesn't make up for not scoring.Strikers need to score its a simple metric and he doesn't fulfill it.He does fit into Klopps work ethic and he ticks alot of boxes but comes up short.

He has 17 goals so far this season...

Morzadec

A lot of the talk about Firmino you could actually frame in my above point about Ederson (i.e. the ability of the player has to be framed in the context of the role they play and their suitability for the team). You can't just talk about "who's better", you have to talk about who's the right match.

Like, who's "better" Firmino or, let's say, Higuain? Common opinion would say Higuain in terms of what he's achieved I suppose, but they're such different players. And I can tell you Liverpool would be a worse team with Higuain in for Firmino.

There's no way Liverpool would swap Firmino for Higuain, just as there's no way City would swap Ederson for de Gea. You need the right player for your system. It's hard to argue who's "better" when the roles they play are so different, and reducing a striker to looking at their goal rate, or a goalkeeper to their save percentage is a completely reductive way of looking at football.

Going back to the original point, in this respect I do think Firmino would be a superb option for Madrid if they wanted to keep a style where your wide-forwards are your most prolific player. Just as Mane and Salah profit hugely from Firmino's workrate, link up play, touches and vision, Bale and Ronaldo would too.

If you're a prolific wide forward Firmino is a dream to play with.

You see this type of reductiveness so often in football fans and pundits though. People who think that Nick Pope or Tarkowski would be good signings for Liverpool, because they are excelling in a team that defends on their 6 yard box (never mind the fact that Pope can barely kick a ball).

TLDR: A lot of people are stuck in the past in their analysis, where a number 9 is only about getting on the end of things and scoring and a goalkeeper is only about making saves.

Morzadec

the whole year inn wrote: »

I watch alot of football about 5 or 6 games (all PL)at the weekend and couple games a night during other cups,and watched Liverpool a decent amount this season.I am not saying hes a bad player far from it,but for all the extra work he does it doesn't make up for not scoring.Strikers need to score its a simple metric and he doesn't fulfill it.He does fit into Klopps work ethic and he ticks alot of boxes but comes up short.

So you want your number 9 to be a prolific goalscorer, like let's say Van Nistelrooy (an unbelievable number 9 poacher).

How many goals would Salah and Mane have this season playing with RVN?

It's a different system and they're different roles.

Those marvelling at Salah scoring all these goals from "out wide" are making the same mistake by saying Firmino doesn't score enough goals.

It's just such archaic thinking for me, it's framing a modern fluid 4-3-3 into an old-school 90s 4-4-2, where your wide players get chalk on their boots and score 5 a season and your striker is just there to sit in the box and wait for his chances.

You see the same things with full-backs in top teams still being referred to as "defenders" when the reality is in a top team their attacking influence is just as important and players like Alonso and Bellerin spend most of their time in way further advanced positions than many centre midfielders.

Sorry if this is a bit Off Topic, just a bit of a rant in how much of football analysis is still very much stuck in the past

ThunbergsAreGo

Morzadec wrote: »

So you want your number 9 to be a prolific goalscorer, like let's say Van Nistelrooy (an unbelievable number 9 poacher).

How many goals would Salah and Mane have this season playing with RVN?

It's a different system and they're different roles.

Those marvelling at Salah scoring all these goals from "out wide" are making the same mistake by saying Firmino doesn't score enough goals.

It's just such archaic thinking for me, it's framing a modern fluid 4-3-3 into an old-school 90s 4-4-2, where your wide players get chalk on their boots and score 5 a season and your striker is just there to sit in the box and wait for his chances.

You see the same things with full-backs in top teams still being referred to as "defenders" when the reality is in a top team their attacking influence is just as important and players like Alonso and Bellerin spend most of their time in way further advanced positions than many centre midfielders.

Sorry if this is a bit Off Topic, just a bit of a rant in how much of football analysis is still very much stuck in the past

That is saying what i meant more eloquently, one could argue in this Liverpool team Salah is the CF

Morzadec

naughtb4 wrote: »

That is saying what i meant more eloquently, one could argue in this Liverpool team Salah is the CF

I mean saying that Firmino isn't a good number 9 because he doesn't score as many goals as Shearer / RVN / Higuain or whatever fox in the box you want to mention is pretty comparable to saying that Beckham was a poor wide player because he only ever got 8 or 9 goals a season and "look at how many Salah is getting!"

Imagine saying that, Beckham was a mediocre wide player because he didn't get the type of goals Salah does. You'd call me an idiot and rightly so. That's pretty comparable to those reducing their analysis of Firmino to his goals contribution

the whole year inn

Morzadec wrote: »

I mean saying that Firmino isn't a good number 9 because he doesn't score as many goals as Shearer / RVN / Higuain or whatever fox in the box you want to mention is pretty comparable to saying that Beckham was a poor wide player because he only ever got 8 or 9 goals a season and "look at how many Salah is getting!"

Imagine saying that, Beckham was a mediocre wide player because he didn't get the type of goals Salah does. You'd call me an idiot and rightly so. That's pretty comparable to those reducing their analysis of Firmino to his goals contribution

Ahh come on,he scored 11 goals last season in the Premier League and 10 the season before that,you think thats good enough for a striker?
I am not saying throw Dzeko in there and that would be better because he scores more ,when really he would take everything from Klopp playing style.I actually agreed he suits Klopps stlye but comes up short in goals.

Let the results speak for themselves.

smileyj1987

the whole year inn wrote: »

Ahh come on,he scored 11 goals last season in the Premier League and 10 the season before that,you think thats good enough for a striker?
I am not saying throw Dzeko in there and that would be better because he scores more ,when really he would take everything from Klopp playing style.I actually agreed he suits Klopps stlye but comes up short in goals.

Let the results speak for themselves.

Lukaku, Morata and Rooney all have the same amount of goals. Firmino has been playing as a striker since october 2015 and will get more clinical as he plays the position more.

ThunbergsAreGo

the whole year inn wrote: »

Ahh come on,he scored 11 goals last season in the Premier League and 10 the season before that,you think thats good enough for a striker?
I am not saying throw Dzeko in there and that would be better because he scores more ,when really he would take everything from Klopp playing style.I actually agreed he suits Klopps stlye but comes up short in goals.

Let the results speak for themselves.

I would rather look at how many the team scored

rossie1977

redzerdrog wrote: »

I think they are both ****e but Mignolet has proven to be ****e more regularly so won't mind karius getting a run to see if he can be less ****e

Every match Karius plays he makes an error and he has to be the worst in the league with ball at his feet. Mignolet at least can go on a run of 5-6 games where he looks decent.

the whole year inn

smileyj1987 wrote: »

Lukaku, Morata and Rooney all have the same amount of goals. Firmino has been playing as a striker since october 2015 and will get more clinical as he plays the position more.

10 goals is no great achievement,Lukaku has been far under performing and Morata and Chelsea well off the boil and they are expected to have gotten alot more .
Firmino has had 2 and half seasons now and you think he going to get more clinical what are you basing this on?

smileyj1987

the whole year inn wrote: »

10 goals is no great achievement,Lukaku has been far under performing and Morata and Chelsea well off the boil and they are expected to have gotten alot more .
Firmino has had 2 and half seasons now and you think he going to get more clinical what are you basing this on?

On the basis that he is doing fine as a striker and that he will get better , if champions league goals are included he is on 17 goals and 9 assists for the season and well you can't say that's a bad return at all.

the whole year inn

smileyj1987 wrote: »

On the basis that he is doing fine as a striker and that he will get better , if champions league goals are included he is on 17 goals and 9 assists for the season and well you can't say that's a bad return at all.

Ill admit that is not a bad run in fairness but that CL group was very easy.I dont get why you think he will get better he may do or this maybe his level hes at.Anyway thats enough talking about Fun Bobby.

KERSPLAT!

I don't think he needs to get much better, or at least doesn't need to score more goals. Liverpool's defence is their issue not their attack. They're only second to a free scoring City on goals scored, not too shabby.

FixdePitchmark

the whole year inn wrote: »

10 goals is no great achievement,Lukaku has been far under performing and Morata and Chelsea well off the boil and they are expected to have gotten alot more .
Firmino has had 2 and half seasons now and you think he going to get more clinical what are you basing this on?

Couthino.